LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?

[Annie_B]

Mormons worship a different Christ:

LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley, June 4, 1998:
“The traditional Christ of who they speak in not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak had been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.”(Church News, June, 20 1998, p. 7.)

LDS Church’s 147th General Conference, General Authority Bernard P. Brockbank:
“…It is true that many of the Christian churches worship A DIFFERENT JESUS CHRIST than is worshiped by the Mormons…” (“The Ensign,” May 1977, p. 26.)

Anna

My mother was a DIFFERENT person to me than to others. She was PERCEIVED by others as being loving and kind to all. To me - well that was a different story. I ruined her life by being born (she told me). Does this mean that my mother was two different people? Of course not! She was perceived differently, said by some to be two different people, but obviously was ONE person. The same with worshipping a “different” Jesus Christ; the SAME Christ - perceived differently, sometimes called “A different Jesus Christ”. We believe that God is his (Jesus’ ) father, and Mary his mother. So, we worship the same Jesus Have any of you ever referred to another as a “different” person when you really mean that they are being perceived/acting differently? “Boy - she sure is a different person today than she was yesterday…”

Annie

 

[RebeccaJ]

My mother was a DIFFERENT person to me than to others. She was PERCEIVED by others as being loving and kind to all. To me - well that was a different story. I ruined her life by being born (she told me). Does this mean that my mother was two different people? Of course not! She was perceived differently, said by some to be two different people, but obviously was ONE person. The same with worshipping a “different” Jesus Christ; the SAME Christ - perceived differently, sometimes called “A different Jesus Christ”. We believe that God is his (Jesus’ ) father, and Mary his mother. So, we worship the same Jesus Have any of you ever referred to another as a “different” person when you really mean that they are being perceived/acting differently? “Boy - she sure is a different person today than she was yesterday…”

Annie

It is not a perception difference. It is a case of mistaken identity.

 

[Annie_B]

It is not a perception difference. It is a case of mistaken identity.

You know - I think you are right! Maybe my mother wasn’t really my mother Now I know why my favorite book growing up was about a little lost bird and it was called “Are You My Mother?”

Annie

 

[RebeccaJ]

You know - I think you are right! Maybe my mother wasn’t really my mother Now I know why my favorite book growing up was about a little lost bird and it was called “Are You My Mother?”

Annie

“You are not my mother! You are a snort!” I love that book…maybe you have the wrong analogy.

 

[dianaiad]

I find it curious that members of the LDS (Mormon) church are constantly on this website trying to convert Catholics. So my question to the LDS proseltizers here is this: Why do you think you need to convert Catholics? What do you think we lack in terms of salvation that the chruch of the LDS offers?

You see, the Catholic Church offers the Apostolic truths AND the grace giving sacraments that Jesus initiated. Its practicing members love God by pray regularly, read scripture, partake of the sacraments, go to mass at least weekly and love thier neighbors through works of mercy and charity. The most devoted among us become preists and religious, giving up their lives to serve God and their fellow man, with vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.

So what are we missing that you could provide through the Mormon church? What do we need to do that we don’t do already?

If you flip the question and ask me what you members of the LDS need to do that you don’t do already, I would say that you must partake of the sacraments as Jesus told us. Be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for the forgiveness of sins and to gain the graces to be saved (John 3, Matthew 28, and many other scriptural references). Partake of the eucharist, because those that don’t eat his body and drink his blood will have no life within them (John 6, the last supper discourses, and 1corinthians 10, 11). When you fall through sin, reconcile with God through the sacrament of reconciliation, because we know that Jesus gave the apostles and their successors the right to forgive sins.

So lets discuss both ends of this>

1. What do you think Catholics don’t do that they need to do to be saved
2. Why you think you don’t need the sacraments?

Speaking for myself only (though to be honest, I don’t see many, if any, Mormons on this site actually proselytizing…) I’m not here to convert anybody. I first posted here because someone was saying things about my belief system that were simply not factual. I remain here in order to defend my beliefs against more nonfactual statements. In other words, I am not here to convince you that Mormonism is TRUE, but simply to make sure you understand the true Mormonism, not some strawman construct.

If you think that simply correcting mistaken ideas about what our beliefs are is proselytising, then you and I have a very different definition about what proselytising actually is.

I’m just sayin’, is all.

 

[dianaiad]

I was hoping to hear from some mormons on what they think they offer Catholics that we don’t already have. I am surprised that none have responded as anxious as they are to make converts…

Probably because your question is one of those 'have you stopped beating your wife?" sorts of things, Paul. You know, 'begging the question?" The question you should be asking us is 'why ARE you here?" Because, believe it or not, converting you isn’t the primary, secondary or even far down the list tertiary reason we are here, those of us who are.

 

[dianaiad]

Right, the LDS church is not part of traditional Christianity (or what some Mormons refer to as “creedal Christianity”). I’m sure the Mormons here would agree.

True. We are not mainstream Christians. We are neither orthodox nor Orthodox. We are not Traditional, or traditional. Given that we believe in this great apostocy, attempting to claim this would be a little contradictory. ;

We are Christians with a different adjective in front of the word.

 

[momor]

Annie B,
I answered your question but haven’t gotten a response yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momor
All that matters to me in understanding LDS doctine is that they believe:

God the Father was once created human like us and was presumably sinful as well.

Jesus Christ was not divine or the second person of the Trinity

That men can become like God the Father after death, creating still future gods.

Cult or not, that’s enough heresy and blasphemy to have me running in the opposite direction as fast as I can.

Don’t forget about Mormonism’s link to Masonry. You can see the same hierarchical structure and secrecy in both.

---

quote:
originally posted by Annie B
May I ask where it is you got the idea that God was (is) presumably sinful?
May I ask why you say we believe that Jesus was (is) not divine? I am guessing that this may have something to do with your actual definition of “divine”, but correct me if I am wrong in guessing so.

The men becoming gods and the connection to Masonry I will not ask about, as it is sure to turn into an argument and that is not why I am here

Annie

---

Reply posted by momor
Please see Anna Scott’s posting (#36) from the Journal of Discourse

My definition of Divine is all 3 persons of the Holy Trinity. If you don’t believe that Jesus is also God, then you have a different interpretation of Divine than I do.

 

[Javl]

Illogical. Many of the people that refer to Catholicism as a [non-Christian] cult (whether on Baptist Board, CARM, Walter Martin forums, other forums, blogs, articles, books, etc) are professed Baptists, Evangelicals, Calvinists, etc. But now they’re “cultists”…odd [use of the word cult] . And I think I’d know, seeing as how I defend Catholicism on the “Roman Catholicism” board of CARM.

I’ve already said what I believe, and others in this thread have echoed my view on the use of “cult” (especially if one is really here to have dialogue and debate, not polemics). Move on.

That’s in your opinion. Someday you will learn. I hope that it will not be too late.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Joseph Smith claimed that God revealed to him that the creeds of all the (Christian) “sects” are an “abomination” in the sight of God. Catholics and Protestants fall into this category of “abomination.”

“My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).

Quotes from the Book of Mormon:

"And he said unto me:** Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil**; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth" **(1 Nephi 14:10).
**
“And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose foundation is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence. . .” (1 Nephi. 14:17).

The Book of Mormon clearly states there are only two churches: one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. If you are not part of the Mormon church, the only category left, is the church of the devil.

So, the creeds of Catholics and Protestants are an “abomination,” and we all belong to the “church of the Devil,” which the Book of Mormon calls “the mother of abominations” and “the whore of all the earth.”

But, everyone is upset because the word “cult” was used in reference to Mormonism. This makes absolutely no sense.
Anna

If you do not have access to the Book of Mormon, here is the link: scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/14

I notice that no one has commmented on this, yet.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[TheosisM]

That’s in your opinion. Someday you will learn. I hope that it will not be too late.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Someday I hope you will learn as well, and I hope it won’t be too late.

 

[Annie_B]

“You are not my mother! You are a snort!” I love that book…maybe you have the wrong analogy.

Good Morning Rebecca -
THank you for accepting my attempt at levity That and the Dr. Suess Sleep Book were the best Maybe I do have the wrong analogy…

Annie

 

[Annie_B]

Annie B,
I answered your question but haven’t gotten a response yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momor
All that matters to me in understanding LDS doctine is that they believe:

God the Father was once created human like us and was presumably sinful as well.

Jesus Christ was not divine or the second person of the Trinity

That men can become like God the Father after death, creating still future gods.

Cult or not, that’s enough heresy and blasphemy to have me running in the opposite direction as fast as I can.

Don’t forget about Mormonism’s link to Masonry. You can see the same hierarchical structure and secrecy in both.

---

quote:
originally posted by Annie B
May I ask where it is you got the idea that God was (is) presumably sinful?
May I ask why you say we believe that Jesus was (is) not divine? I am guessing that this may have something to do with your actual definition of “divine”, but correct me if I am wrong in guessing so.

The men becoming gods and the connection to Masonry I will not ask about, as it is sure to turn into an argument and that is not why I am here

Annie

---

Reply posted by momor
Please see Anna Scott’s posting (#36) from the Journal of Discourse

My definition of Divine is all 3 persons of the Holy Trinity. If you don’t believe that Jesus is also God, then you have a different interpretation of Divine than I do.

Your answer did not require a response, as it did not apear as a quetion. I saw it as an anser to my question. No need for you to be offended or concerned
Annie

 

[Annie_B]

Someday I hope you will learn as well, and I hope it won’t be too late.

You took the words right out of my mouth
Annie

 

[sablouwho]

I’ve yet to come across a Protestant who says that Catholicism is a cult.

It exists, believe me. Believe TheosisM. Or better yet, go look for yourself online–this won’t be too hard to find.

The only “Protestants” that will say so are cultists and NOT a true Protestant.

Oy vey…:banghead:

Also, in my many years of study and involvement with cults and the like, I’ve yet to come across a Catholic who does not use that term in reference to Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc.

I think you have come across such Catholics on this very thread!

Perhaps it would help you to know that I happen to know a Catholic psychologist who studies cults as part of his job, yet he doesn’t refer to the above mentioned groups as cults.

So, now you at least are aware of Catholics (on this board as well as one in real life who has credentials–though you will have to take my word for that, which I can understand you probably will not want to do–that is fine) who do not “default” to using the term cult to describe these groups.

There was only one church founded by Jesus Christ and it has lasted for these past 2000 years still teaching the same truths without variation, even though many under the influence of Satan have tried to destroy it from within.

In all seriousness, I have a sinking feeling that those of us who disagree with you are automatically being lumped into that category.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Anyone else find the Shalom Aleichem reference a bit ironic considering the content of these posts?

 

[ParkerD]

Interesting, Mormons believe that the Son became divine. Are there any supporting documents for this supposed belief that Jesus was not divine at some point (just curious, because I’ve never come across this)?

This seems odd since Mormons believe that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.

TheosisM,
I can see why a child or a youth might have the impression that Jesus, since He “increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man”, was increasing in His “divinity”, but that would be because of not having studied that He is Jehovah, is Alpha and Omega, is the Firstborn and as such was divine in the pre-mortal world where we knew Him as being One with the Father. He condescended to earth and grew as a child grows but signficantly much faster in His innate understanding, and with nary a single mistake along the way of re-learning what He had already known in the pre-mortal world, where He was God omnipotent along with His Father. He is God incarnate, Immanuel, the Word who was made flesh and dwelt among us–so for someone to think He was not divine in the pre-mortal world, means only that they stopped reading or listening early on, while still a youth and not really gleaning the meaning of what was being said all along.

Have a wonderful day.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Illogical. Many of the people that refer to Catholicism as a [non-Christian] cult (whether on Baptist Board, CARM, Walter Martin forums, other forums, blogs, articles, books, etc) are professed Baptists, Evangelicals, Calvinists, etc. But now they’re “cultists”…odd [use of the word cult] . And I think I’d know, seeing as how I defend Catholicism on the “Roman Catholicism” board of CARM.

I’ve already said what I believe, and others in this thread have echoed my view on the use of “cult” (especially if one is really here to have dialogue and debate, not polemics). Move on.

TheosisM,

I was actually surprised to hear you say that you “defend Catholicism on the Roman Catholicism Board of CARM,” because, here, you seem to be defending Mormonism–and arguing against your Catholic brethren. It’s difficult to get a clear picture of your beliefs. Do you believe in the Trinity? Do you believe in the Christ of Mormonism, or the Christ of Christianity? Do you believe that God the Father is an exalted man?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Anna

Anna

 

[kozlosap]

I’ve yet to come across a Protestant who says that Catholicism is a cult. The only “Protestants” that will say so are cultists and NOT a true Protestant. Also, in my many years of study and involvement with cults and the like, I’ve yet to come across a Catholic who does not use that term in reference to Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc.

I ( we ) do not attack the personal beliefs of the individual, but question the theology, doctrines, and motives of these “religions”. I would say that they all came into being because of someone’s greed for money, power, egotism, etc. ( yes, that occurs in mainline Christianity resulting in the establishment of another “Church”, and so on.

There was only one church founded by Jesus Christ and it has lasted for these past 2000 years still teaching the same truths without variation, even though many under the influence of Satan have tried to destroy it from within.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I’ve been enjoying this very educational discussion and the discourse on this question. I however, would like to jump in and just ask about a main component of LDS theology that I don’t understand and in some ways explains why we Catholics and others often will refer to the Mormon Church as a cult. Any person is allowed in the highest and most scared of the Roman Catholic cathederals, including the Sistine Chapel, but unless I’m a Mormon with a “temple recommend” (which means I turn over my financial records and pay my mandatory 10% a year), I am not allowed in the secret rooms of a Mormon Temple. This seems very much the same as Scientologists not being given the final key to the universe unless they keep on taking classes and paying and paying and paying. I think it can be safely assumed that most of us regard Scientology as a cult.
Any clarification on these mandates would be great!

 

[Annie_B]

TheosisM,

I was actually surprised to hear you say that you “defend Catholicism on the Roman Catholicism Board of CARM,” because, here, you seem to be defending Mormonism–and arguing against your Catholic brethren. It’s difficult to get a clear picture of your beliefs. Do you believe in the Trinity? Do you believe in the Christ of Mormonism, or the Christ of Christianity? Do you believe that God the Father is an exalted man?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Anna

Anna

I know your question was not for me, but you brought up an interesting point; defending someone’s faith. One can completely defend another’s faith without the defending statements being their own beliefs! As far as a clear picture of THeosis’ beliefs, note that he is a Catholic “pondering the LDS CHurch”, therefore I think it is pretty clear that he is seeking to define his own beliefs at this time (Theosis, please correct me if I am wrong). Beliefs are defended every day in courts of law, even when the defense lawyer does not necessarily believe the same things as the client he/she represents. If we cease to defend the beliefs and right to those beliefs of those who believe different from us, then we slowly chip away at our own ability to be “free thinkers”. Everyone has free will and the right to believe what they want and everybody should srive to keep that same freedom for all:thumbsup:

Annie

 

[Annie_B]

I’ve been enjoying this very educational discussion and the discourse on this question. I however, would like to jump in and just ask about a main component of LDS theology that I don’t understand and in some ways explains why we Catholics and others often will refer to the Mormon Church as a cult. Any person is allowed in the highest and most scared of the Roman Catholic cathederals, including the Sistine Chapel, but unless I’m a Mormon with a “temple recommend” (which means I turn over my financial records and pay my mandatory 10% a year), I am not allowed in the secret rooms of a Mormon Temple. This seems very much the same as Scientologists not being given the final key to the universe unless they keep on taking classes and paying and paying and paying. I think it can be safely assumed that most of us regard Scientology as a cult.
Any clarification on these mandates would be great!

I think the Catholic church and the Mormon church BOTH have things that they feel are too sacred for the non-believers to experience. For the LDS it is the Temple, for the Catholics it is Holy Communion. I know this is just a lightweight answer, but it does make a point. For those who are properly prepared in either the Catholic or the LDS church, nothing is denied Now, Parker could give you a much better answer Iam sure; he is good at that:thumbsup:
Annie