LDS worship

[Janderich]

It’s not the blessings a person gets in the temple that gets one into heaven, it’s those all important handshakes and code phrases that one learns that gives us the “tokens” to slip through the veil and into heaven. Without these handshakes and code words, a person cannot get into heaven.

The temple is symbolic. No Christian should misunderstand this point since Christ used symbolism regularly in the New Testament. As he said, “because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:” (Matt 13:13-14) Does anyone really believe that a handshake and a few words will get you into heaven? Of course not. To say the LDS people do so, is completely wrong. One must see past the symbol to the symbolized.

 

[PaulDupre]

The temple is symbolic. No Christian should misunderstand this point since Christ used symbolism regularly in the New Testament. As he said, “because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:” (Matt 13:13-14) Does anyone really believe that a handshake and a few words will get you into heaven? Of course not. To say the LDS people do so, is completely wrong. One must see past the symbol to the symbolized.

Okay, what do you think the hand clasps symbolize? I understand that it will only be your opinion because the symbolism is never explained in the temple, and no one is allowed to discuss it outside the temple.

In the temple, we are told that we need the “signs and tokens” to pass by the angels that stand as sentinels to guard the entrance to the Celestial kingdom. No mention that it is all symbolic and so not silly at all.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic )

 

[truthsave]

The temple is symbolic. No Christian should misunderstand this point since Christ used symbolism regularly in the New Testament. As he said, “because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:” (Matt 13:13-14) Does anyone really believe that a handshake and a few words will get you into heaven? Of course not. To say the LDS people do so, is completely wrong. One must see past the symbol to the symbolized.

WHY YOU HAVE TO SAY WHAT IS NOT TRUE?!
**Jesus never used symbolism!!! ** He used parabols. The same sentence you are using is when He explain why He talk in parabols not secred symbols.
Anyone guided by the Holy Ghost (the Christian ones) can really feel the sense of His parabols in his all being and if not guided by the Holy Ghost he can understand them with his own rationality.
There is no symbolism in parabols.
Even when He take the wine and the bread He does not say it is symbolic He says it is My Body and My Blood.
There is not secret in Jesus teaching He also stated it:
“I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in [a]synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret. (John18:20)

Of course mormons don’t think He said it or is not well translated or He said but… or anything that could not interfear with their belief.

 

[Janderich]

Okay, what do you think the hand clasps symbolize? I understand that it will only be your opinion because the symbolism is never explained in the temple, and no one is allowed to discuss it outside the temple.

In the temple, we are told that we need the “signs and tokens” to pass by the angels that stand as sentinels to guard the entrance to the Celestial kingdom. No mention that it is all symbolic and so not silly at all.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic )

I will not explain in detail what I feel pieces of the temple ceremony symbolize. We almost never talk about such things even within the walls of the temple itself. Besides symbolism about God is truly only understood through the spirit, "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1 Cor 2:9-10)

However, let me say something in general about the symbolism in the temple… Even before entering the doors of the temple the symbolism begins. It continues within the temple walls. All the ordinances performed are symbolic, from baptism to sealings. Anyone who mocks a symbol has absolutely misunderstood. After all, how can anything about God be explained except through symbols? Yet no one would say the symbol is God or that the symbol completely defines our relationship to Him. Elder Widsoe once said,

We live in a world of symbols. We know nothing, except by symbols. We make a few marks on a sheet of paper, and we say that they form a word, which stands for love, or hate, or charity, or God or eternity. The marks may not be very beautiful to the eye. No one finds fault with the symbols on the pages of a book because they are not as mighty in their own beauty as the things which they represent. We do not quarrel with the symbol G-O-D because it is not very beautiful, yet represents the majesty of God. (“Temple Worship,” p 62)

Quite a number of apostles and prophets have spoken on the need to understand symbolism within the temple. However, let me simply quote Elder Widsoe again.

No man or woman can come out of the temple endowed as he should be, unless he has seen, beyond the symbol, the mighty realities for which the symbols stand (ibid)

 

[batman1973]

I will not explain in detail what I feel pieces of the temple ceremony symbolize. We almost never talk about such things even within the walls of the temple itself. Besides symbolism about God is truly only understood through the spirit, "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1 Cor 2:9-10)

However, let me say something in general about the symbolism in the temple… Even before entering the doors of the temple the symbolism begins. It continues within the temple walls. All the ordinances performed are symbolic, from baptism to sealings. Anyone who mocks a symbol has absolutely misunderstood. After all, how can anything about God be explained except through symbols? Yet no one would say the symbol is God or that the symbol completely defines our relationship to Him. Elder Widsoe once said,

Quite a number of apostles and prophets have spoken on the need to understand symbolism within the temple. However, let me simply quote Elder Widsoe again.

Seriously? Too many of us went through your temple to buy this. Please stop being dishonest. That’s not Christ-like at all. There is nothing secret about the real plan of Salvation.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I will not explain in detail what I feel pieces of the temple ceremony symbolize. We almost never talk about such things even within the walls of the temple itself. Besides symbolism about God is truly only understood through the spirit, "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1 Cor 2:9-10)

However, let me say something in general about the symbolism in the temple… Even before entering the doors of the temple the symbolism begins. It continues within the temple walls. All the ordinances performed are symbolic, from baptism to sealings. Anyone who mocks a symbol has absolutely misunderstood. After all, how can anything about God be explained except through symbols? Yet no one would say the symbol is God or that the symbol completely defines our relationship to Him. Elder Widsoe once said,

Quite a number of apostles and prophets have spoken on the need to understand symbolism within the temple. However, let me simply quote Elder Widsoe again.

There is no “LDS symbolism” in any temple ritual. What is perceived in their temples is nothing more than the symbolism that an individual attributes to it. Other religions when asked what does “x” mean/symbolize will explain it, adherents may have understandings that veer off the “official” stance but a defined understanding of the symbolism is there so that the majority can understand. Symbolism is meaningless when it comes to the LDS because it is not universally understood or explained. Even discussing it is frowned upon among the most devout members in their most private places. Symbols are utterly useless if they are not understood at their most basic, what they symbolize.

 

[Marie5890]

The temple is symbolic. No Christian should misunderstand this point since Christ used symbolism regularly in the New Testament. As he said, “because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:” (Matt 13:13-14) Does anyone really believe that a handshake and a few words will get you into heaven? Of course not. To say the LDS people do so, is completely wrong. One must see past the symbol to the symbolized.

I have no idea of how old you are, but when I went thru (late 80’s) no one back there saw the tokens (is handshakes) names of those tokens, signs and penalties as symbolic.

We really believe that you would need to know those handshakes and their names in order to get into heaven.

Perhaps, yet again, Mormon doctrine has changed and they now believe it’s all symbols. If so, one more reason that the LDS leadership misleads it’s faithful as to what really is what in it’s believe system. Nothing is stable. Nothing. Not even temple worship

But that was not the thinking when I went thru.

 

[Marie5890]

Seriously? Too many of us went through your temple to buy this. Please stop being dishonest. That’s not Christ-like at all. There is nothing secret about the real plan of Salvation.

My thoughts exactly. Too many of us have been thru the temple here and it’s insulting.

 

[Janderich]

I have no idea of how old you are, but when I went thru (late 80’s) no one back there saw the tokens (is handshakes) names of those tokens, signs and penalties as symbolic.

We really believe that you would need to know those handshakes and their names in order to get into heaven.

Perhaps, yet again, Mormon doctrine has changed and they now believe it’s all symbols. If so, one more reason that the LDS leadership misleads it’s faithful as to what really is what in it’s believe system. Nothing is stable. Nothing. Not even temple worship

But that was not the thinking when I went thru.

Marie,
If you did not understand the temple was symbolic then I’m afraid you missed a major point. The above comments from Elder Widsoe were given in 1920. Elder Packer’s book The Holy Temple ,which is used extensively, was published in 1980 and speaks on symbolism. Some teaching within the temple even alludes to it’s own symbolism.

 

[TexanKnight]

I will not explain in detail what I feel pieces of the temple ceremony symbolize. We almost never talk about such things even within the walls of the temple itself. Besides symbolism about God is truly only understood through the spirit, "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1 Cor 2:9-10)

However, let me say something in general about the symbolism in the temple… Even before entering the doors of the temple the symbolism begins. It continues within the temple walls. All the ordinances performed are symbolic, from baptism to sealings. Anyone who mocks a symbol has absolutely misunderstood. After all, how can anything about God be explained except through symbols? Yet no one would say the symbol is God or that the symbol completely defines our relationship to Him. Elder Widsoe once said,

Quite a number of apostles and prophets have spoken on the need to understand symbolism within the temple. However, let me simply quote Elder Widsoe again.

That makes it handy, huh? It enables you to make a claim that the temple is symbolic, but when pressed, you won;t discuss it. Therefore, you cannot support your claim.

So…what is symbolic about promising to kill each other? What is symbolic about a Catholic Priest being the agent of Satan? What is symbolic about secret handshakes?

 

[TexanKnight]

Marie,
If you did not understand the temple was symbolic then I’m afraid you missed a major point. The above comments from Elder Widsoe were given in 1920. Elder Packer’s book The Holy Temple ,which is used extensively, was published in 1980 and speaks on symbolism. Some teaching within the temple even alludes to it’s own symbolism.

Then answer my questions

 

[TexanKnight]

Marie,
If you did not understand the temple was symbolic then I’m afraid you missed a major point. The above comments from Elder Widsoe were given in 1920. Elder Packer’s book The Holy Temple ,which is used extensively, was published in 1980 and speaks on symbolism. Some teaching within the temple even alludes to it’s own symbolism.

And by the way, Marie is correct…

 

[Marie5890]

Marie,
If you did not understand the temple was symbolic then I’m afraid you missed a major point. The above comments from Elder Widsoe were given in 1920. Elder Packer’s book The Holy Temple ,which is used extensively, was published in 1980 and speaks on symbolism. Some teaching within the temple even alludes to it’s own symbolism.

Cop out…

I repeat, when I was LDS, Mormons didnt take the handshakes, names etc as being merely symbolic.

How things have changed in 20 years…But then again, Mormonism changes …

Pres Hinckley demonstrated that just fine with Larry King etc.

 

[HonoraDominum]

I have no idea of how old you are, but when I went thru (late 80’s) no one back there saw the tokens (is handshakes) names of those tokens, signs and penalties as symbolic.

We really believe that you would need to know those handshakes and their names in order to get into heaven.

Perhaps, yet again, Mormon doctrine has changed and they now believe it’s all symbols. If so, one more reason that the LDS leadership misleads it’s faithful as to what really is what in it’s believe system. Nothing is stable. Nothing. Not even temple worship

But that was not the thinking when I went thru.

First, let me address the Double Bind (a type of Mormon mind game) in the original arguement: The Temple is full of symbolism that will get you to heaven, and if you get through the ceremony and you “get it”, then you are going to heaven. And if you don’t “get” the symbolism of the most important ceremony of your life, well, anyone who mocks a symbol has absolutely misunderstood.

If you do have faith and relinquish your brain, you cannot, in reality, reach a confirmation of a truth. The means have been taken away.

If you don’t have faith, and rely on your brain, you will not find the confirmation of the truth of something that is false.

As far as changes, it’s been reported that the Temple ceremony has indeed changed since then. It changed when they changed the oaths taken from this in the early 1900’s:

We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so; we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots … We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip or penalty. Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field … We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our bodies be cut asunder in the midst and all our bowels gush out.

To this, when I went through around 2000 or so:

I, —— (think of the new name) do covenant and promise that I will never reveal the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, together with its accompanying name, sign and penalty. Rather than do so I would suffer my life to be taken … I, —— (think of the first given name), do covenant and promise that I will never reveal the second token of the Aaronic Priesthood, together with its accompanying name, sign and penalty. Rather than do so I would suffer my life to be taken … covenant in the name of the Son that I will never reveal the first token of the Melchizedek Priesthood or sign of the nail, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Rather than do so I would suffer my life to be taken.

Slight difference. And these were not symbolic oaths either. Heber C. Kimball, a member of the First Presidency, declared in 1857 that: “Judas lost that saving principle, and they took him and killed him… they actually kicked him until his bowels came out.” ‘I will suffer my bowels to be taken out before I will forfeit the covenant I have made with Him and my brethren.’ Do you understand me? … I know the day is right at hand when men will forfeit their Priesthood and turn against the covenants they have made, and they will be destroyed as Judas was" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, pp. 125-26).

That’s a bit more than symbolism. Of course, none of these oaths say anything like “I would rather suffer death than offend God with one deliberate venial sin. I would rather roast on hot coals like St. Lawrence than to deny the Godhood of Christ. I would rather be fastened to a cross and stoned to death for Christ’s Name’s sake like St. Phillip rather than to deny the existance of my Lord and King.” No, the Mormons in the temple say that they would rather die than to reveal this …



Kind of puts it in perspective, don’t you think?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Cop out…

I repeat, when I was LDS, Mormons didnt take the handshakes, names etc as being merely symbolic.

How things have changed in 20 years…But then again, Mormonism changes …

Pres Hinckley demonstrated that just fine with Larry King etc.

Dissembling, AKA, lying for the Lord.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I will not explain in detail what I feel pieces of the temple ceremony symbolize. We almost never talk about such things even within the walls of the temple itself. Besides symbolism about God is truly only understood through the spirit, "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1 Cor 2:9-10)

However, let me say something in general about the symbolism in the temple… Even before entering the doors of the temple the symbolism begins. It continues within the temple walls. All the ordinances performed are symbolic, from baptism to sealings. Anyone who mocks a symbol has absolutely misunderstood. After all, how can anything about God be explained except through symbols? Yet no one would say the symbol is God or that the symbol completely defines our relationship to Him. Elder Widsoe once said,

Quite a number of apostles and prophets have spoken on the need to understand symbolism within the temple. However, let me simply quote Elder Widsoe again.

Marie,
If you did not understand the temple was symbolic then I’m afraid you missed a major point. The above comments from Elder Widsoe were given in 1920. Elder Packer’s book The Holy Temple ,which is used extensively, was published in 1980 and speaks on symbolism. Some teaching within the temple even alludes to it’s own symbolism.

Completely agreed. Apostles and prophets in the restored Church of Jesus Christ have taught that the Endowment ordinance is highly symbolic, and this can be found in many of their statements, books, etc. Now, throughout the years I have talked with many people within the walls of the temple about the symbolism of the “tokens” in the Endowment, and a number of them said exactly what you said (almost word for word) as far as whether we will really be giving these tokens to angels that we pass on the journey back to God in Heaven. On the other hand, there are of course many people that do believe that we will actually give angels these words, signs, and tokens (while still also accepting that they are symbolic gestures, and noting that the symbolism of some of the tokens is explicitly given within the Endowment ordinance). I don’t believe that it is problematic to hold to such a belief, and there is ancient literature in the Judeo-Christian tradition that makes references to things like being taken by the right hand into the presence of God, being taken by the right hand through the veil into Heaven, etc.

I went to the temple today, and loved every moment, including walking around and sitting in the Celestial Room thinking about the symbolism of everything, all coming back to Jesus Christ, His atonement, and His Gospel.

 

[Janderich]

Completely agreed. Apostles and prophets in the restored Church of Jesus Christ have taught that the Endowment ordinance is highly symbolic, and this can be found in many of their statements, books, etc. Now, throughout the years I have talked with many people within the walls of the temple about the symbolism of the “tokens” in the Endowment, and a number of them said exactly what you said (almost word for word) as far as whether we will really be giving these tokens to angels that we pass on the journey back to God in Heaven. On the other hand, there are of course many people that do believe that we will actually give angels these words, signs, and tokens (while still also accepting that they are symbolic gestures, and noting that the symbolism of some of the tokens is explicitly given within the Endowment ordinance). I don’t believe that it is problematic to hold to such a belief, and there is ancient literature in the Judeo-Christian tradition that makes references to things like being taken by the right hand into the presence of God, being taken by the right hand through the veil into Heaven, etc.

I went to the temple today, and loved every moment, including walking around and sitting in the Celestial Room thinking about the symbolism of everything, all coming back to Jesus Christ, His atonement, and His Gospel.

Agreed. The temple may very well be both symbolic and actual. But to simply say it is completely, and only, literal is incorrect. Interestingly enough I went to the temple tonight too. It was enlightening.

 

[HonoraDominum]

For those Catholics who may be getting sucked into the “The Temple is so beautiful” hooey, let me testify to you as an ex-Mormon Catholic that it is NOT beautiful. It is peaceful, yes, as is any place away from the world’s noise and commotion. Everyone wears white and you aren’t even allowed to wear street shoes so the carpet is pristine.

However, it is not at all spiritual. They keep talking about how they “feel” while they are there, but they neglect to talk about the truth of their doctrine. The “symbols” they keep talking about are based in Masonic rituals, the story of creation is based on the fiction of the Book of Abraham, and what they are doing in the Temple is ordinance work for the dead. Mormons are taking names from the church records from genealogical research, some of which are taken from Catholic church records, and having these people posthumously baptized and confirmed as Mormons and giving them these “blessings” of learning these secret Masonic handshakes and code phrases.

The forces of all that are unholy are blinding these sincere, but deluded Mormons into believing that by going through these rituals of handshakes and videos and putting on little green aprons that they are saving souls of those who were not “Good Enough” to warrant going through these ceremonies on earth. They’re “converting” the dead to Mormonism in these temples. Both Catholics and Jews have been highly offended at their records being taken and used for this purpose. The Vatican has written to Catholic dioceses around the world telling them not to provide parish records to the Genealogical Society of Utah. And the LDS church was shamed into apologizing to the families of holocaust victims for performing these ceremonies on their behalf.

Do not let these lies, created by the father of lies, distract you from the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, that resides in the tabernacles of the Catholic church. He is veiled, but NOT given only to those who are “found worthy”. We can go to Confession and become right with God and be in intimate union with Him every single day. We can adore Him in adoration and we can sing His praises in Mass. Our ceremonies can be experienced by everyone, even those who are not Catholic - even if non-Catholics cannot participate in the Eucharist, they can still witness the consecration. And Blessed be God for that grace, as I received the grace of conversion during a friend’s wedding, at the Consecration of the Blessed Sacrament.

As the Cure of Ars used to say, He’s Really There. **He’s. Really. There.
**
Catholics believe Christ when he said “THIS IS MY BODY.” That is not symbolism or a warm fuzzy feeling. To paraphrase one of my beloved priests, Christ said it, I believe it, close the book.

May the Heart of Jesus, in the Most Blessed Sacrament of the altar, be praised, adored, and loved with grateful affection, at every moment, in all the tabernacles of the world, even to the end of time. Amen.

 

[Miriam1947]

Completely agreed. Apostles and prophets in the restored Church of Jesus Christ have taught that the Endowment ordinance is highly symbolic, and this can be found in many of their statements, books, etc. Now, throughout the years I have talked with many people within the walls of the temple about the symbolism of the “tokens” in the Endowment, and a number of them said exactly what you said (almost word for word) as far as whether we will really be giving these tokens to angels that we pass on the journey back to God in Heaven. On the other hand, there are of course many people that do believe that we will actually give angels these words, signs, and tokens (while still also accepting that they are symbolic gestures, and noting that the symbolism of some of the tokens is explicitly given within the Endowment ordinance). I don’t believe that it is problematic to hold to such a belief, and there is ancient literature in the Judeo-Christian tradition that makes references to things like being taken by the right hand into the presence of God, being taken by the right hand through the veil into Heaven, etc.

I went to the temple today, and loved every moment, including walking around and sitting in the Celestial Room thinking about the symbolism of everything, all coming back to Jesus Christ, His atonement, and His Gospel.

But if Joseph Smith does not approve you for heaven then all your works are in vain. Because it is not Jesus you look to as your judge for heaven but a man.

 

[TexanKnight]

Completely agreed. Apostles and prophets in the restored Church of Jesus Christ have taught that the Endowment ordinance is highly symbolic, and this can be found in many of their statements, books, etc.

So many errors in such a short paragraph. First, there IS not restored Church because the True Christ, unlike the LDS christ, is neither weak or dishonest. Second, there was no symbolism in the mutual agreements to kill each other

I went to the temple today, and loved every moment, including walking around and sitting in the Celestial Room thinking about the symbolism of everything, all coming back to Jesus Christ, His atonement, and His Gospel.

If you think you enjoyed the temple, you should try a Catholic Parish…follow the One True God for awhile and see how it feels…it is much better than the temple…I have been to both and speak from experience.