Lead as contributing factor to crime?

[Robert_Sock]

I am indeed saying that these phenomena don’t exist. People always have free will, that’s part of what it means to be a person. So people (provided they are aware of the immorality of their behaviour) are always culpable for their behaviour.

So a person with Alzheimer’s disease is culpable for their aggression?

 

[St_Francis]

I understand the reality of the scientific/psychosocial basis for bad behavior. I’m just sayin that we seem to spend a lot more time explaining, defending or excusing bad behavior than we do on being good parents, teachers, law enforcement, doctors, lawyers… citizens, etc. We are creatures. We’ve spent tens of thousands of years being hungry and killing to survive. Bad behavior isn’t new it’s just becoming socialized as the “new normal”. In general, we’re obsessed with celebrity wealth and fame and these fine “examples” of what to do and how to behave are abominable. (Miley Cyrus the other night… oh… that’s nice.)

Conformity has become a bad word. There used to be upper and lower limits on what is and is not acceptable “normal” behavior. We used to “govern” ourselves better. Now we encourage individuality to the extent that all kinds of deviant behavior is being considered acceptable. It has a deliterious effect on society. It has a deliterious effect on “normal”. The pendulum has swung to far left from the repressive nineteen-fifties. The sixties were great in many ways but also very damaging.

Being God fearing and law abiding is normal. Marriage is normal. Family is normal. One Father, the Spiritual leader of the family unit and one mother is normal. More than two kids is normal. Siblings who enter the religous community is normal. Working for a living is normal. Working two jobs, going to night school to get ahead, that’s normal. Drinking water from a hose and wearing hand me down clothes is normal too.

Now kids will kill each other for a pair of sneakers. How did sneakers get so important? How did ____ get more important than the value of life? (Oh yeah, abortion. Society says it’s okay to kill for socio-economic reasons.)

Whining and making excuses for bad behavior is the new normal.

I see what you are saying… I am old enough to have watched as we shifted from a “normal” society with some problems to an “abnormal” society with different problems.

And while it is true that we have made excuses and all that, I think that there is a difference between looking at someone who grew up under trying circumstances and saying, oh, he’s had it so rough, let’s give him a break; and saying, this person has something wrong with their brain (not saying this lead theory is part of this, but in general) and so is not necessarily morally culpable (God will sort that out definitively) but they are still violence-prone and seem to have an inadequate ability to keep themselves from hurting others; what should be done?

First, I think that if this is potentially a large factor (crime seems to be dropping everywhere so it may be that the lead has been reduced enough that we don’t have to worry about it for the future, but since crime is still high in some parts of the nation so it might still be) that it may be deserving of further investigation, and possibly action.

Second, that it might be investigated in the individuals. Should those who are found to be suffering from this problem be treated differently in the criminal justice system? Would others in prison be in danger from them? Would people affected in this way continue to be a danger if they were let out?

 

[SentinelofTruth]

Robert Sock:

So a person with Alzheimer’s disease is culpable for their aggression?

Yes. It doesn’t matter what diseases you have, you can’t lose your free will, because a being’s essential nature cannot change.
St Francis:

Physiological psychology indeed studies neurology.

You didn’t answer my question. If this is so, why are they separate fields?
St Francis:

What is your area of expertise to reject my claim that abnormal development of the frontal lobe is associated with aggression? You’re going against a large amount of literature in psychology and physiology.

I don’t need a degree in science to know a very fundamental truth about something that science doesn’t even study. God taught me this, and I trust him more than you. I don’t care how much literature and science and stuff I am denying. I would deny any amount of popular opinion rather than think that God is such an idiot as to make us that way.
St Francis:

And where does philosophy come into play within a purely psychological and physiological phenomenon?

The field of philosophy of mind is a division of philosophy, consisting largely of metaphysics, that is about the nature of the human mind/soul/spirit. I think it is obvious why this is relevant.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yes. It doesn’t matter what diseases you have, you can’t lose your free will, because a being’s essential nature cannot change.

You didn’t answer my question. If this is so, why are they separate fields?

I don’t need a degree in science to know a very fundamental truth about something that science doesn’t even study. God taught me this, and I trust him more than you. I don’t care how much literature and science and stuff I am denying. I would deny any amount of popular opinion rather than think that God is such an idiot as to make us that way.

The field of philosophy of mind is a division of philosophy, consisting largely of metaphysics, that is about the nature of the human mind/soul/spirit. I think it is obvious why this is relevant.

 

[St_Francis]

Yes. It doesn’t matter what diseases you have, you can’t lose your free will, because a being’s essential nature cannot change.

You didn’t answer my question. If this is so, why are they separate fields?

I don’t need a degree in science to know a very fundamental truth about something that science doesn’t even study. God taught me this, and I trust him more than you. I don’t care how much literature and science and stuff I am denying. I would deny any amount of popular opinion rather than think that God is such an idiot as to make us that way.

The field of philosophy of mind is a division of philosophy, consisting largely of metaphysics, that is about the nature of the human mind/soul/spirit. I think it is obvious why this is relevant.

Just wanted to point out that your quotes in this post had my name on them but actually Robert Sock wrote them. I didn’t know all that stuff

 

[St_Francis]

I am indeed saying that these phenomena don’t exist. People always have free will, that’s part of what it means to be a person. So people **(provided they are aware of the immorality of their behaviour) **
are always culpable for their behaviour.

The whole *point *is that there is in Alzheimers patients a lack of awareness of the morality of what they are doing! And the article suggests there may be a loss on that area in people who have been overly exposed to lead.

While I disagree with your belief in scientific basis for bad behaviour, I must commend that you look at the issue this way.

 

[triumphguy]

Yes. It doesn’t matter what diseases you have, you can’t lose your free will, because a being’s essential nature cannot change.

You didn’t answer my question. If this is so, why are they separate fields?

I don’t need a degree in science to know a very fundamental truth about something that science doesn’t even study. God taught me this, and I trust him more than you. I don’t care how much literature and science and stuff I am denying. I would deny any amount of popular opinion rather than think that God is such an idiot as to make us that way.

The field of philosophy of mind is a division of philosophy, consisting largely of metaphysics, that is about the nature of the human mind/soul/spirit. I think it is obvious why this is relevant.

While we were made in the image and likeness of God our free will is impaired by original sin.

Of course you can lose your ability to use your free will.

All kinds of diseases, toxins, drugs, addictions, habits or injuries can impair our ability to choose freely.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

triumhguy:

While we were made in the image and likeness of God our free will is impaired by original sin.

You can’t have ‘impaired’ free will, you either have it or you don’t. Original sin didn’t make us evil. Evil is by definition freely chosen. Original sin took away the garden of Eden and our immortality, not our free will.
triumhguy:

Of course you can lose your ability to use your free will.

A being’s essential nature cannot change throghout its existence.
triumhguy:

All kinds of diseases, toxins, drugs, addictions, habits or injuries can impair our ability to choose freely.

This is not true. I refer you to my first not-quote sentence.

 

[triumphguy]

You can’t have ‘impaired’ free will, you either have it or you don’t. Original sin didn’t make us evil. Evil is by definition freely chosen. Original sin took away the garden of Eden and our immortality, not our free will.

A being’s essential nature cannot change throghout its existence.

This is not true. I refer you to my first not-quote sentence.

Just because you repeat something it doesn’t make it true.

ccc 1739 Freedom and sin. Man’s freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God’s plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom

Someone gives you a lobotomy = freewill gone
Someone slips you rohypnol = free will gone
You get Alzheimer or dementia = eventually free will be gone
You are addicted to drugs or alcohol = free will be diminished
You act out of fear, anxiety or mental illness = lack of free will

With regard to masturbation the CCC says:

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Just because you repeat something it doesn’t make it true.

Someone gives you a lobotomy = freewill gone
Someone slips you rohypnol = free will gone
You get Alzheimer or dementia = eventually free will be gone
You are addicted to drugs or alcohol = free will be diminished
You act out of fear, anxiety or mental illness = lack of free will

With regard to masturbation the CCC says:

Abnormal development of the frontal lobe = free will greatly diminished

 

[SentinelofTruth]

triumphguy:

Just because you repeat something it doesn’t make it true.

I didn’t say it does.

triumphguy:

Quote:
ccc 1739 Freedom and sin. Man’s freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God’s plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom

In the blue highlight, the CCC is referring to that man’s freedom applies unconditionally only to himself, i.e. we don’t have the ‘freedom’ to do things outside our power (like flying).
In the red highlight, the CCC means that all sins are choices to be enslaved. A single sin however does not take permanently enslave us. Suppose an egyptian pharoah tells you to build a statue to the God (called Hapi) of the nile river. If you build the first half of the statue, you can still choose to stop succumbing to pharoah’s slavery.
As for the yellow highlight: ‘engendered’ does not necessarily mean ‘forced’. Besides, if you assert that the CCC does means ‘forced’, then you deny the existence of free will altogether.
In the green highlight, when the CCC says ‘wretchedness and oppresion’, it’s talking about the wretchedness and oppresion exerted by human beings on other human beings.

triumphguy:

Someone gives you a lobotomy = freewill gone
Someone slips you rohypnol = free will gone
You get Alzheimer or dementia = eventually free will be gone
You are addicted to drugs or alcohol = free will be diminished
You act out of fear, anxiety or mental illness = lack of free will

This is all false.

triumphguy:

With regard to masturbation the CCC says:

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

In no place does the CCC say that these ‘phychological factors’ and such stem from brain ailments.

 

[triumphguy]

I didn’t say it does.

In the blue highlight, the CCC is referring to that man’s freedom applies unconditionally only to himself, i.e. we don’t have the ‘freedom’ to do things outside our power (like flying).
In the red highlight, the CCC means that all sins are choices to be enslaved. A single sin however does not take permanently enslave us. Suppose an egyptian pharoah tells you to build a statue to the God (called Hapi) of the nile river. If you build the first half of the statue, you can still choose to stop succumbing to pharoah’s slavery.
As for the yellow highlight: ‘engendered’ does not necessarily mean ‘forced’. Besides, if you assert that the CCC does means ‘forced’, then you deny the existence of free will altogether.
In the green highlight, when the CCC says ‘wretchedness and oppresion’, it’s talking about the wretchedness and oppresion exerted by human beings on other human beings.

This is all false.

In no place does the CCC say that these ‘phychological factors’ and such stem from brain ailments.

These are entirely your own personal interpretations. I’m not even sure if you are serious.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

triumphguy:

These are entirely your own personal interpretations. I’m not even sure if you are serious.

Why would I be saying something this bold if I wasn’t serious? And can you provide any real grounds for thinking that these are not the correct interpretations?

 

[St_Francis]

Why would I be saying something this bold if I wasn’t serious? And can you provide any real grounds for thinking that these are not the correct interpretations?

So basically what you are saying is that a person in a coma is guilty of sloth, the person with a spastic cerebral palsy or Parkinson’s is morally responsibly for everything they break, etc.

The reason this isn’t spelled out in Chruch teaching is that the idea that physical difficulties beyond our control obviously reduces moral culpability. There is also nothing in the CCC about the sky’s being blue either.

 

[triumphguy]

Why would I be saying something this bold if I wasn’t serious? And can you provide any real grounds for thinking that these are not the correct interpretations?

Are you really seriously implying that the CCC of the Catholic Church when discussing issues of Chastity and freedom and sin mean that by lack of freedom we cannot fly?

Seriously?

 

[SentinelofTruth]

triumphguy:

Are you really seriously implying that the CCC of the Catholic Church when discussing issues of Chastity and freedom and sin mean that by lack of freedom we cannot fly?

It makes a lot more sense than the idea of ‘partial’ free will. Nevertheless, I now see another possible interpretation: perhaps it means that we can’t just decide “I’m going to be a saint,” and immediately be one (we can, of course, choose to be saints, it just takes time). Since virtues are patterns of benevolent behaviour, one action isn’t enough to make one a saint. Thus, it takes time to grow in holiness. Perhaps this is what it means.
St Francis:

So basically what you are saying is that a person in a coma is guilty of sloth, the person with a spastic cerebral palsy or Parkinson’s is morally responsibly for everything they break, etc.

No. Brain ailments can limit one’s physical competence, just not one’s mental competence. People in comas, since they are physically incapable of action, are not guilty of sloth. I’m not actually sure what cerebal palsy is, but if it’s the thing where you have spasms of involuntary movement, this movement is involuntary. If you’re a soldier, and your gun jams, you lose your ability to shoot. Nevertheless, this isn’t because you have lost your free will.

triumphguy:

Seriously?

Please, if you aren’t going to listen to me, at least take me seriously.

 

[triumphguy]

It makes a lot more sense than the idea of ‘partial’ free will. Nevertheless, I now see another possible interpretation: perhaps it means that we can’t just decide “I’m going to be a saint,” and immediately be one (we can, of course, choose to be saints, it just takes time). Since virtues are patterns of benevolent behaviour, one action isn’t enough to make one a saint. Thus, it takes time to grow in holiness. Perhaps this is what it means.

I’m sure that’s a lot closer to the meaning of the text!

No. Brain ailments can limit one’s physical competence, just not one’s mental competence. People in comas, since they are physically incapable of action, are not guilty of sloth. I’m not actually sure what cerebal palsy is, but if it’s the thing where you have spasms of involuntary movement, this movement is involuntary. If you’re a soldier, and your gun jams, you lose your ability to shoot. Nevertheless, this isn’t because you have lost your free will.

Where do you get the understanding that “brain ailments” can’t limit one’s mental “competence”?

I knew someone who killed herself recently. She had a severe thyroid problem. Apparently this severely affected her state of mind and was a significant contributing factor to taking her own life.

Why? What does the thyroid do to a person’s mind? thyroid.ca/e10f.php

The Thyroid and the Mind and Emotions/Thyroid Dysfunction and Mental Disorders A.G. Awad, MD, BCH, PhD, FRCP(C) Associate Professor of Psychiatry, University of Toronto, Director, Psychobiological Medicine Unit, Department of Psychiatry, Toronto Western Hospital

The Thyroid and the Mind and Emotions

Summary of an address to the Kitchener-Waterloo Area Chapter

The psychiatric disturbances which accompany hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism, the two commonest thyroid disorders, mimic mental illness. People with an overactive thyroid may exhibit marked anxiety and tension, emotional lability, impatience and irritability, distractible overactivity, exaggerated sensitivity to noise, and fluctuating depression with sadness and problems with sleep and the appetite. In extreme cases, they may appear schizophrenic, losing touch with reality and becoming delirious or hallucinating. An underactive thyroid can lead to progressive loss of interest and initiative, slowing of mental processes, poor memory for recent events, fading of the personality’s colour and vivacity, general intellectual deterioration, depression with a paranoid flavour, and eventually, if not checked, to dementia and permanent harmful effects on the brain. In instances of each condition, some persons have been wrongly diagnosed, hospitalized for months, and treated unsuccessfully for psychosis.

thyroid.about.com/od/bookssupportresources/a/letter-to-family-friends.htm

When Your Family Member or Friend Has Thyroid Disease: An Open Letter to the Family and Friends of Thyroid Patients

Typically, a thyroid problem comes in one of several forms. Your loved one may be hyperthyroid…that means that the thyroid gland is overactive, and producing too much thyroid hormone. When the thyroid becomes overactive, you can think of it a bit like the gas pedal on the car is stuck, and the engine is flooding. If your loved one is going through hyperthyroidism, he or she may be feeling extremely anxious and nervous, with a rapidly beating heart, higher blood pressure, and even palpitations. Some people describe the sensation as like their heart is beating so hard and loud everyone around them can even see it and hear it! They may be hungry and thirsty all the time, suffering from diarrhea even, and losing weight. Others may even be wondering, wrongly, if your loved one’s rapid weight loss is due to an eating disorder or some sort of illness like cancer or AIDS. His or her eyes may be sore, sensitive, gritty and irritated, and vision can even become blurry. Sleep may be difficult or impossible, and lack of sleep combined with the body zooming along at 100 miles an hour can cause extreme exhaustion and muscle weakness. Frankly, people who are in the throes of hyperthyroidism have told me that they feel and look like someone who is strung out on drugs, or who has had 20 cups of coffee after not sleeping for a week. With heart pounding, and all body systems going full tilt, your jittery, stressed-out hyperthyroid loved one may even feel like he or she is losing it, ready to fall apart at any moment.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

triumphguy:

I’m sure that’s a lot closer to the meaning of the text!

I think it is, but it is still not at all what you were using to say.

triumphguy:

Where do you get the understanding that “brain ailments” can’t limit one’s mental “competence”?

I know this the same way I know God exists. And I am near being able to philosophically prove it. I just need to find two more links, and I will be able to prove, starting from no assumptions, that this is the case.

triumphguy:

I knew someone who killed herself recently. She had a severe thyroid problem. Apparently this severely affected her state of mind and was a significant contributing factor to taking her own life.

More probably, the explanation is that this person comitted suicide to escape the suffering.

 

[triumphguy]

I think it is, but it is still not at all what you were using to say.

True.
I know this the same way I know God exists. And I am near being able to philosophically prove it. I just need to find two more links, and I will be able to prove, starting from no assumptions, that this is the case.

More probably, the explanation is that this person comitted suicide to escape the suffering.

Serious question… Are you a high school student?

 

[SentinelofTruth]

triumphguy:

Serious question… Are you a high school student?

No, but I think if I wasn’t homeschooled I would be. Why?