Learn the ahadith to better understand Islam

[R_not]

During the time that this verse was revealed to the Muslim is when the Muslim had just mirgated from Mecca to Medinah. And the Muslims were weak and wished not to be attacked again.

So Awliya would probably be better translated as protecters and not friends. Thus the verse is specific in meaning and not general.

In Christ,

Silouan

Once again the reason why mohammed migrated from mecca to medina was due to his own actions and words. I posted this before and mohammed and his followers were NOT attacked, but asked to stop their ridicule and harassment of the them and so they went to mohammed’s uncle.

This is what I previously posted - and take note - it is from THEIR own hadiths. And the arrogance that mohammed displayed is clearly shown in these hadiths in his reply to his uncle.

(I cut/pasted the same post as I posted previously)

**actually, this is not entirely true. The elders in Mecca approached mohammed’s uncle to stop mohammed from his poor behavior. It is even in the hadiths. It was mohammed who was the problem. This is why to this day the distortion of who is persecuted and who isn’t still prevails. muslims feel they are persecuted, or oppressed, if they are not able to establish sharia law, have infidels pay them accept subjugation and just behave as musims behave in mostly muslim countries - which do not have good records for human rights, religious tolerance, or even laws to make them accountable the killing/torture/stealing from/lying to/etc of infidels.

Ishaq:119 “'Abu Tabib, your nephew Muhammad has cursed our gods [at this point he had cursed all of them, including Allah], insulted our religion [more correctly, insulted them by trying to steal their religion], mocked our way of life and accused our forefathers of error. Either you stop him or let us get to him. For you, like us, are in opposition to him. He gave them a conciliatory reply. They returned a second time and said, ‘We have asked you to put a stop to your nephew’s activities but you have not done so. By Allah, we cannot endure having our fathers reviled and our customs mocked.’ Muhammad thought that his uncle had the idea of abandoning and betraying him, and that he was going to lose his support. The Apostle broke into tears.”

Tabari VI:93 "The Quraysh went to Abu Talib and said, ‘Your nephew [Muhammad] has reviled our gods, denounced our religion, derided our traditional values, and told us that our forefathers were misguided [and burning in hell]. Either curb his attacks on us or give us a free hand to deal with him, for you are as opposed to him as we are.’ They said, ‘We asked you to forbid your nephew from attacking us, but you did nothing. By Allah, we can no
longer endure this vilification of our forefathers, this derision of our traditional values, and this abuse of our gods.’

This breach and enmity with his tribe weighed heavily on Talib. ‘Abu Talib, you are our elder and our chief, so give us justice against your nephew and order him to desist from reviling our gods, and we will leave him to his god.’"

Tabari VI:95 “Abu Talib sent for muhammad. ‘Nephew, here are the shaykhs and nobles of your tribe. They have asked for justice against you. You should desist from reviling their gods and they will leave you to your god.’”

Tabari VI:96 “Abu Talib said to Muhammad, ‘Nephew, how is it that your tribe is complaining of you and claiming
that you are reviling their gods and saying this, that, and the other?’ The Messenger said, 'I want them to utter one saying. If they say it, the Arabs will submit to them and the non-Arabs will pay the jizyah [submission tax] to them.” **

 

[R_not]

So, when mohammed included his orders to not take Christians and Jews as friends was due to his own problematic actions and words.

This is not the behavior of any prophet that I would follow.

 

[R_not]

Sadly Muslims seem to ignore this:

**This **is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
**Verily **I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
**No **compulsion is to be on them.
**Neither **are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
**No **one is to destroy a house of their religion church, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.
**Should **anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet.
Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
**No **one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
**The **Muslims are to fight for them.
**If **a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
**Their **churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
**No **one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

“Charter of Privileges”

Keep in mind the last one :
**No **one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

so it’s an obligation for every Muslim till the Last Day.

Where are these located at?

I am curious because most sharia law - which is the reason why such harsh treatment of dhimmi, and the claim that sharia is based on the koran.

If these are abrogated surahs, then that would explain it. If you would provide the surah, or hadith that you get these from - it would be interesting to read. Especially in the light that churches and temples and other’s places of worship are not only being destroyed at a fast rate these days - but have been destroyed and had conditions placed on them for centuries - about 14 centuries.

Thanks much!

 

[Nicolas]

Where are these located at?

I am curious because most sharia law - which is the reason why such harsh treatment of dhimmi, and the claim that sharia is based on the koran.

If these are abrogated surahs, then that would explain it. If you would provide the surah, or hadith that you get these from - it would be interesting to read.

Thanks much!

You haven’t even read it !! you said these are Surahs ?? Are you serious ??

“his is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.”

It’s a letter from Mohammed to monks of Saint Catherine’s Monastery, Mount Sinai …
sinaimonastery.com/en/index.php?lid=68

 

[R_not]

You haven’t even read it !! you said these are Surahs ?? Are you serious ??

“his is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.”

I will ask again - where did you get this?

If they are not surahs then what we are witnessing is that muslims are not honoring some sort of covenant that was made. Which if you don’t get upset and realized that - no muslim feels that any agreement with an infidel is worth biding by for any length of time, per mohammed.

Even peace treaties are to last no longer than 10 years and are to be broken as soon as the muslims are rearmed/regrouped. Hudna is what they call it.

Who is this guy? Unless you provide more - this is just made up stuff since over 35 churches in the Kosovo/Bosnia area have been destroyed this year alone. And that is only ONE area. Hindu temples have been destroyed too. Jewish temples - well, you can imagine the frenzy over getting them knocked down! But, they have destroyed some of those too.

An example of broken peace treaties - there are too many that have been made with Israel that have been broken. The agreement that saudi arabia made in the late 1960s to stop slavery has been broken. Those are only two examples.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Where are these located at?

Charter of Privileges (wikipedia)

Google search

 

[Frank_J]

Hi R not,

I agree with the artical that you posted, feel that it is dead on.
frontpagemagazine.com/Article…2-75683AEED74D

If that the best way is to know what the relgion is really like is to look at the man who found it, and the men that served with him.

I herd that the one of Mohammed left hand man kill himself in order to kill someone else. Maybe one way to see if this is true is to pickup Robert Spencer book.

First I would like to say hello to you Silouan. Second I have a copy of a Quran in my house and it is not the same translation, but it still read the same.

Some people don’t want to see what is happening in this world. They think if they stick their heads in a hole the problems will pass.

Once in a blue moon I look at the flick on 9/11/01 on my computer. You see the calls for help from the people that died at the World Trade Center. It sometime is hard watch it when you think that 200 people jump out the two World Trade Center towers.
The only reason they died was because they went to work.

My family lost two of our freind on one of the planes that crashed in to one of the two towers.

9/11 still angers me when I think about it. May GOD help me to heal the hurt I feel for those people who can no longer talk for themselves.

Have a great day.

 

[R_not]

Hi R not,

I agree with the artical that you posted, feel that it is dead on.
frontpagemagazine.com/Article…2-75683AEED74D

If that the best way is to know what the relgion is really like is to look at the man who found it, and the men that served with him.

I herd that the one of Mohammed left hand man kill himself in order to kill someone else. Maybe one way to see if this is true is to pickup Robert Spencer book.

First I would like to say hello to you Silouan. Second I have a copy of a Quran in my house and it is not the same translation, but it still read the same.

Some people don’t want to see what is happening in this world. They think if they stick their heads in a hole the problems will pass.

Once in a blue moon I look at the flick on 9/11/01 on my computer. You see the calls for help from the people that died at the World Trade Center. It sometime is hard watch it when you think that 200 people jump out the two World Trade Center towers.
The only reason they died was because they went to work.

My family lost two of our freind on one of the planes that crashed in to one of the two towers.

9/11 still angers me when I think about it. May GOD help me to heal the hurt I feel for those people who can no longer talk for themselves.

Have a great day.

Hi Frank - nice to meet you!

9/11 is the reason why I am where I am with islam. I have read so much on it all due to 9/11 and the question - ‘why do they hate us?’. Well, I found out why and it is because of that koran and the hadiths - and mohammed. It is just as simple as that.

 

[Nicolas]

sinaimonastery.com/en/index.php?lid=68

Again , you think I am unaware of muslims destroying churches and homes …etc…go and study the group “khawarij” and why/what/how they did evil actions based on the Quran…

Again…the Quran is an open book to everyone… even a child of a 4 year old can read it so how about different interpretations and understating of different groups of different mentality and culture …

Again…Islam is a wide subject…you can’t pass a university course if you have just finished on section or two…you have to understand it all…

Again,you are hijacking EVERY muslim/islam/mohammed topic in this forum…please give us some space…

thank you

 

[R_not]

sinaimonastery.com/en/index.php?lid=68

Again , you think I am unaware of muslims destroying churches and homes …etc…go and study the group “khawarij” and why/what/how they did evil actions based on the Quran…

Again…the Quran is an open book to everyone… even a child of a 4 year old can read it so how about different interpretations and understating of different groups of different mentality and culture …

Again…Islam is a wide subject…you can’t pass a university course if you have just finished on section or two…you have to understand it all…

Again,you are hijacking EVERY muslim/islam/mohammed topic in this forum…please give us some space…

thank you

I am only on two threads - and why should I let bad information be passed??!! You guys don’t even know your own hadiths or koran - or do you!? I think you are very knowledgeable about it and purposefully post the abrogated surahs.

You are making excuses for others destroying churches and temples, and that is the way I see muslims reacting all the time. No mosque has been destroyed - or if they have - they pale in number compared to the destruction done to churches and mosques. And some were even destroyed over a cartoon they had nothing to do with!

So, what you want to do is spread da’wa - such as saying that some covenant that no muslim is obeying and have non-muslims believe that it is a valid thing?!

You are welcome on any thread - we don’t censor you. But, that isn’t the point is it? The point is that you want to spread da’wa and not have the haditha shown that you don’t want shown.

 

[R_not]

Charter of Privileges (wikipedia)

Google search

Those websites show an agreement that is WAAAY over 10 years old and since no agreement is to last over 10 years - I think that you are showing me something that not even the muslims know about!! and even if they did they have no problem breaking the next day!

 

[Nicolas]

Those websites show an agreement that is WAAAY over 10 years old and since no agreement is to last over 10 years - I think that you are showing me something that not even the muslims know about!! and even if they did they have no problem breaking the next day!

“No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”

 

[R_not]

Why is it that when one shows a muslim their own hadiths, or koranic surahs, they have a problem with ME?!!

 

[R_not]

“No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”

Well, someone tell the ones doing the destroying!

Here are some recent destruction of places of worship by muslims:

These are a couple of years old
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/018674.php

jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020688.php

jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011752.php

jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/009409.php

this is an article that mentions the 35 destroyed churches
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001636.php

here is another article
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/006771.php

I mean the list goes on and these are all happenings in this century. So, the covenant is hogwash in the muslim world. Only to be used by muslims trying to do da’wa to prove to the ignorant (there are not that many ignorant ones on these threads) that islam is peaceful.

Go tell your fellow muslims to follow the covenant and don’t tell me to go research some obscure illogical reasoning why they destroy things.

 

[Nicolas]

Why is it that when one shows a muslim their own hadiths, or koranic surahs, they have a problem with ME?!!

I guess you have to learn from InJESUS on how to debate with Muslims…and Sailoun also made it clear to you…

 

[R_not]

I guess you have to learn from InJESUS on how to debate with Muslims…and Sailoun also made it clear to you…

How to debate with muslims…

• accept whatever they tell me no matter what even if they print abrogated surahs.
• well, they don’t answer inJesus quite often if he doesn’t ask the correct questions - so that one is out
• submit to lies, and a way of life/religion, that only wants infidels either dead, converted or subjugated.

I could go on, but I am already sickened.

Why are you so intolerant?

Why do you follow a guy who killed, stole, lied, and enslaved, etc and told his followers to do these despicable things?

Why do you get so upset when people are posting your hadiths and surahs - the ones you guys don’t like to post because they are not the abrogated passages?

Why do you think we should just be zombie robots ?:hypno: and accept untruths, or deny/ignore facts?

 

[Silouan]

Then is the meaning of the passage something like “do not take the Christians or Jews as protectors in a war, because they won’t look after you - only fellow Christians or Jews”? Is this the modern, mainstream understanding?

I believe the verses of the Quran are to implemented on a case by case basis. There is a general meaning to this verse, but the literal meaning is specific, related to a particular time and place and situation. They won’t look after you, if you understand the situation of the Muslim in those day, you would know that the Jews and Christians of Medinah had a pack with the people of Mecca, and they were fleeing Medinah. It was a warning not to be so quick to take them as protecters because they were just arriving in Medinah and they had not established trust.

However historically speaking, after the Muslims and Christians of Arabia had established some trust, it is recorded that they fought along side each other. I don’t have references on me, but I will look it up if you need it.

I think the general meaning of this verse is that one should not take people with whom they do not know fully or have not earned their full trust as protectors. Because unless you know them, then they may betray you.

It should also be known that there are some Muslims in the world who take this verse in the literal sense and may never take a Christian or Jew as a friend, but I do not believe this reflect majority of the Muslim world. And Our Lord Knows Best.

It still seems strange to me, but I guess I’m glad that none of my Muslim friends are sinning by behaving nicely towards me.

A Muslim would not be considered sinning if they took a Christian as a friend and was kind and just to them in the Quran it says, **"God does not forbid that you should deal kindly and justly with those who do not fight you for the sake of [your] religion or drive you out of your homes. Truly, God loves those
who are just. **[60:8]

In Christ,

Silouan

 

[dzheremi]

That’s good. Thank you for explaining the passage to me, Silouan.

 

[R_not]

Since this is a thread about the ahaditha I am going to put down some more.

This one I find very weird. Remember that this is all supposed to be given by God, but we find out later that this is not really how things work. It seems our infidel science has figured out what have been said in these hadiths are not true.

Abdullah bin Salam asked mohammed 3 things and this was one of them.

**Bukhari:V4B55N546 **“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Gabriel has just now told me of the answer. If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble him, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her.’”

Here is a different passage about the same thing, but different people asked mohammed the question,

**Ishaq:255 **"Jewish rabbis came to the Apostle and asked him to answer four questions saying, ‘If you do so we will follow you, testify to your truth, and believe in you.’ They began, ‘Why does a boy resemble his mother when the semen comes from the father?’ Muhammad replied, ‘Do you not know that a man’s semen is white and thick and a woman’s is yellow and thin? The likeness goes with that which comes to the top.’

the hadith continues, and you can read the rest for yourselves.

Now, these next two hadiths sound more like the stories we hear from the Greeks and Romans, as two examples, than from God. My question is that if these were from God, or mohammed was getting his info from God - how come he didn’t know that the earth revolves around the sun and the moon revolves around the earth? Instead, we get some story of a garment’s length.

**Tabari I:232 **“Gabriel brings to the sun a garment of luminosity from the light of Allah’s Throne according to the measure of the hours of the day. The garment is longer in the summer and shorter in the winter, and of intermediate length in autumn and spring. The sun puts on that garment as one of you here puts on his clothes.”
**Tabari I:233 **“When the Messenger was asked about that, he replied, 'When Allah was done with His creation He created two suns from the light of His Throne. His foreknowledge told Him that He would efface one and change it to a moon; so the moon is smaller in size.”

Here is one that sounds like the pagan gods story of the sun:

**Tabari I:244 **“Allah then created for the sun a chariot with 360 handholds from the luminosity of the light of the Throne and entrusted 360 of the angels inhabiting the lower heaven with the sun and its chariot, each of them gripping one of those handholds. Allah also entrusted 360 angels with the moon.”

Here is another one along the same lines of thought:

**Tabari I:236 **"‘When the sun rises upon its chariot from one of those springs it is accompanied by 360 angels with outspread wings… When Allah wishes to test the sun and the moon, showing His servants a sign and thereby getting them to obey, the sun tumbles from the chariot and falls into the deep end of that ocean. When Allah wants to increase the significance of the sign and frighten His servants severely, all of the sun falls and nothing of it remains in the chariot. That is a total eclipse of the sun. It is a misfortune for the sun.’"

Astounding how all of these passages, and believe me there are more, explain the workings of our little part of the Universe. Of course, none of it was true but I don’t understand if allah is all-knowing and he sent mohammed the truth - what is with all of these sorts of passages?

I took the above from the ahaditha, and there is an article also about islamic science in

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1873983/posts

and also here

prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Science.Islam

I don’t like the name of the above website - but I wasn’t the one who is in charge of it.

 

[Silouan]

I will post some hadiths about the deception that I keep talking about and get frustrated with since I have a hard time with that since if muslims are told to deceive us - I ask, ‘how can we trust them?’.

Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”

Ishaq:519 “Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.’ Having got Muhammad’s permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.’ The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.’”

Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from a people with whom you have a treaty, retaliate by breaking off relations with them.”

Ishaq:323 “I am the best of plotters. I deceived them with My guile so that I delivered you from them.”

Ishaq:365
Tabari VII:94 “Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.’ ‘Say what you like,’ Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.’”

Since you know Islam better than I a former Muslims and most Muslims in the world and can explain Islam in the most elouquent way, and have been gifted with providing the most compelling proofs.

How would you join those verses from the Quran and hadiths which according to inidcate that a Muslim should lie and verses from the Quran and hadiths which indicate that a Muslim should not lie???

Below are verses and verses which indicate that a Muslim should not lie and be trustworthy taken from the Reliance of the Traveller translated by Nuh Keller, an American convert to Islam.

Allah Most High says:

(1) Allah guides not the profligate liar" (Koran 40:28).

(2) “May liars perish” (Koran 51:10). p24.

2 The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:

(1) “Lying leads one to wickedness and wickedness leads one to hell. A man keeps lying until Allah records that he is an inveterate liar.”

(2) “The marks of a hypocrite are three: when he speaks he lies, when he makes a promise he breaks it, and when entrusted with something he betrays the trust.”

(3) “A believer’s natural disposition might comprise any trait other than treachery and untruthfulness.”

(Taken from Reliance of the Traveller)

In Christ,

Silouan