Least persuasive argument used by Catholics?

[pablope]

This should put to rest the 33,000 myth.
philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

well…did you read the whole article?

Would you classify the “independents” as proterstantst too, as they fall in the same umbrella:

However, if you combine Protestants with Independents and Anglicans ( [22000 + 9000 + 168] / 33000) it is 94% of the total or 31,000+ . We will see below that most (about 97%) of the “Independent” churches are indeed Protestants

so counting the growth of independents, the number would be closer to 40K by now.

 

[Jon_S_1]

This should put to rest the 33,000 myth.
philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

Is it just me or am I seeing this article affirming the 30,000 Protestsnt denominations??

 

[fasolislithuan]

Thanks! I have heard the first argument a number of times, and suspected it wasn’t very persuasive.

But I wish the other posters would focus on the original question. I am not asking which arguments are valid, I am asking which are not persuasive - not persuasive to the other person. The “number of Protestant denominations” argument may be valid, but to Protestants, it appears not too persuasive. I didn’t want to start another post on “number of denominations” topic. Yes, I think it’s important, and yes, I have posted in other threads from a pro-Catholic viewpoint. For this thread, I am really seeking non-Catholic feedback about what isn’t persuasive **to you. **

Keep in mind an argument can be valid, but not persuasive; or persuasive, but not valid.
This thread is about “what do non-Catholics find as not persuasive?”. Other threads, where I also frequently rant, are about validity.

I think your question shouldn’t be addresed to protestants but to converts. They can answer what catholic arguments were least persuasive for their conversion. Is evident that for our confident protestants in this forum there are not a possible persuasive argument in catholicism. Neither the division in protestantism, neither John 6 and the Eucharist, neither Mat 16:18, neither the apostolic succession, neither the history of the Bible canon etc… They are immune or they are vaccinated To persuade, at least in spanish, means to convence someone to do o to give up something. In this case a persuasive argument would be an argumente that a protestant would give up to be protestant or he would be catholic. So there are not least persuasive arguments, because for them in fact there are not any persuasive argument.

Saludos.

 

[aidanbradypop]

well…did you read the whole article?

Would you classify the “independents” as proterstantst too, as they fall in the same umbrella:

However, if you combine Protestants with Independents and Anglicans ( [22000 + 9000 + 168] / 33000) it is 94% of the total or 31,000+ . We will see below that most (about 97%) of the “Independent” churches are indeed Protestants

so counting the growth of independents, the number would be closer to 40K by now.

So do you count every church within the Anglican Communion as a seperate denomination?

Not always. Independent can also man Gnostic Christians, Mormons, JW, all the various Independent Catholic Churches…etc

I did, and the matter of degrees does not have any affect on the overall argument. There could be ten or two divisions and my point would remain.

Well then continue to use it then and know you are lumped into the number as well

Is it just me or am I seeing this article affirming the 30,000 Protestsnt denominations??

 

[Reuben_J]

I think your question shouldn’t be addresed to protestants but to converts. They can answer what catholic arguments were least persuasive for their conversion. Is evident that for our confident protestants in this forum there are not a possible persuasive argument in catholicism. Neither the division in protestantism, neither John 6 and the Eucharist, neither Mat 16:18, neither the apostolic succession, neither the history of the Bible canon etc… They are immune or they are vaccinated To persuade, at least in spanish, means to convence someone to do o to give up something. In this case a persuasive argument would be an argumente that a protestant would give up to be protestant or he would be catholic. So there are not least persuasive arguments, because for them in fact there are not any persuasive argument.

Saludos.

It is important though to present a truthful argument, not so much to convert anyone but to present the truth. I think most posters here who have stayed long enough and posted much, whether Protestants or Catholics, care for the truth of their belief to be presented fairly and to clarify any misunderstanding of what may be erroneously perceived.

Peace.

Reuben.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Well then continue to use it then and know you are lumped into the number as well
:

Not really. According to that website, there are 22,000 independent churches, and 9,000 Protestant churches. The article then states, as Pablope points out, that the 22,000 independent churches are essentially protestant in nature. This would put the grand total of Protestant ideologies at 31,000, not accounting for the likely growth since the article is written. You can try to discount the independents, but to do so would be to undermine the validity of the article you’re using to make your claim.

I am therefore perfectly within my rights to state that there are 30k+ Protestant denominations, which would exclude any Roman Catholic rite or Orthodox church. I personally would not exclude Anglicanism from that number, but even if I do the number still stands.

As I stated though, the number is inconsequential to the proper application of the argument.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Not really. According to that website, there are 22,000 independent churches, and 9,000 Protestant churches. The article then states, as Pablope points out, that the 22,000 independent churches are essentially protestant in nature. This would put the grand total of Protestant ideologies at 31,000, not accounting for the likely growth since the article is written. You can try to discount the independents, but to do so would be to undermine the validity of the article you’re using to make your claim.

I am therefore perfectly within my rights to state that there are 30k+ Protestant denominations, which would exclude any Roman Catholic rite or Orthodox church. I personally would not exclude Anglicanism from that number, but even if I do the number still stands.

As I stated though, the number is inconsequential to the proper application of the argument.

You have every right to state what you wish to state.

So then you agree that there are 242 Catholic denominations and 781 Orthodox denominations? Glad we agree.

 

[GKC]

So do you count every church within the Anglican Communion as a seperate denomination?

Not always. Independent can also man Gnostic Christians, Mormons, JW, all the various Independent Catholic Churches…etc

Well then continue to use it then and know you are lumped into the number as well

Or, every Anglican Church comprising the Anglican Communion, or not in the Communion, counted as a separate denomination, for every country in which that Church has a presence. Which would make the Episcopal Church, USA, count as roughly 20 denominations. In Barrett’s methodology.

GKC

 

[aidanbradypop]

Or, every Anglican Church comprising the Anglican Communion, or not in the Communion, counted as a separate denomination, for every country in which that Church has a presence. Which would make the Episcopal Church, USA, count as roughly 20 denominations. In Bartlett’s methodology.

GKC

Lol exactly and the 700 something Orthodox

 

[GKC]

Is it just me or am I seeing this article affirming the 30,000 Protestsnt denominations??

Using Barrett’s definition of denomination, as shown in para 2 at the link, yes.

GKC

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The “because the ever-infallible Pope said so” kind …

 

[pablope]

So do you count every church within the Anglican Communion as a seperate denomination?

Not always. Independent can also man Gnostic Christians, Mormons, JW, all the various Independent Catholic Churches…etc

 

[ProdglArchitect]

You have every right to state what you wish to state.

So then you agree that there are 242 Catholic denominations and 781 Orthodox denominations? Glad we agree.

I would not in terms of the Catholic Church, because those are different Rites, not denominations as they are commonly understood (different beliefs and teachings). While I understand the author’s reason for counting them as denominations for the purposes of this study, the two are comparable because, as stated, the Catholic Rites all adhere to a single set of doctrines; the only difference is the physical appearance of the mass; there are no substantive differences. All of these rites acknowledge and adhere to the authority of the Pope.

This is not true of either the Protestant or Orthodox groupings, which have vastly different understandings and interpretations of scripture and doctrine, many of which compete with and refute each other.

 

[Nelka]

 

[aidanbradypop]

And which adds to the number of Protestant denominations…all using the Bible as their authority…correct? All the result of Sola Scriture and its vairants…don’t you recognize that?

 

[aidanbradypop]

I would not in terms of the Catholic Church, because those are different Rites, not denominations as they are commonly understood (different beliefs and teachings). While I understand the author’s reason for counting them as denominations for the purposes of this study, the two are comparable because, as stated, the Catholic Rites all adhere to a single set of doctrines; the only difference is the physical appearance of the mass; there are no substantive differences. All of these rites acknowledge and adhere to the authority of the Pope.

This is not true of either the Protestant or Orthodox groupings, which have vastly different understandings and interpretations of scripture and doctrine, many of which compete with and refute each other.

PA,

By the methodology the study did, each rite is denomination. The whole study is flawed gravely. There are many denominations but not as that study presents.

 

[pablope]

Yet, use the Bible as their authority…

Pentecostal is Pentecostal. AoG and CoG are simply fellowships and not denominations.

What is the difference between a fellowship and a denomination? A fellowship looks like another name for a denomination.

Anyway, as a fellowship…they do still baptize, have christian beliefs, are independent…and use the Bible as their authority…
In other words, these fellowships do what denominations do…

 

[Jon_S_1]

Did you click on the list of independents? Many are not even considered Christian by the RCC and other Christian Churches.

Pentecostal is Pentecostal. AoG and CoG are simply fellowships and not denominations.

The fact that you consider some of the denominations “not christian” means nothing…they consider themselves christians and perhaps they think you are “not christian” . This just emphasizes the point of why the denominations are there to begin with and why there are so many of them!!

I am curious if you have a more accurate number for Protestant denominations?

Lets say there is 1 Catholic Church, 1 Orthodox Church, 1 Anglican Church, and 1000 Protestant denominations (I think this is a vast understatement).

Is 1000 an acceptable number?

Does having 1000 instead of 30,000 show that they are somehow united?

Does having 1000 instead of 30,0000 show that there is not an authority problem in protestantism?

 

[pablope]

PA,

By the methodology the study did, each rite is denomination. The whole study is flawed gravely. There are many denominations but not as that study presents.

Ok…so what do you think is the number? And can you back it up with data?

 

[GKC]

I would not in terms of the Catholic Church, because those are different Rites, not denominations as they are commonly understood (different beliefs and teachings). While I understand the author’s reason for counting them as denominations for the purposes of this study, the two are comparable because, as stated, the Catholic Rites all adhere to a single set of doctrines; the only difference is the physical appearance of the mass; there are no substantive differences. All of these rites acknowledge and adhere to the authority of the Pope.

This is not true of either the Protestant or Orthodox groupings, which have vastly different understandings and interpretations of scripture and doctrine, many of which compete with and refute each other.

Remember that the Barrett group defines a denomination as separate for each country in which the church/denomination has a presence. For reasons that escape me, they seem to think there are 242 (as of 2000, anyway) such countries. Given that they seem to usually say 238 denominations for the RCC, it seems unlikely that the number of sui juris Churches in communion with Rome is driving that number, but that the RCC is treated as a unitary Church, with a countable presence in (I suppose) 238 or 242 countries.

GKC