Least persuasive argument used by Catholics?

[GKC]

Ok…so what do you think is the number? And can you back it up with data?

If I’m asked, I always reply that I have no idea. It might be 32k. It might be 10k. It might be 50k. No one knows, without doing a study that makes some acceptable and agreed upon definitions, and follows some basic principles of sociological inquiry.

Which would be interesting. But it is not what Barret’s group is doing. Barret’s totals are based on an idiosyncratic definition of denomination, which counts the RCC as more than 200 denominations, worldwide. Which is silly. And silly for all the other denoms counted once per country, though, for whatever reason, it suits Barret’s needs. The point in pointing this out is that some folk think that in citing Barret’s work, they are referring to a number of denominations as the term is commonly used, and that the number has some type of validity in general.

GKC

 

[GKC]

The fact that you consider some of the denominations “not christian” means nothing…they consider themselves christians and perhaps they think you are “not christian” . This just emphasizes the point of why the denominations are there to begin with and why there are so many of them!!

I am curious if you have a more accurate number for Protestant denominations?

Lets say there is 1 Catholic Church, 1 Orthodox Church, 1 Anglican Church, and 1000 Protestant denominations (I think this is a vast understatement).

Is 1000 an acceptable number?

Does having 1000 instead of 30,000 show that they are somehow united?

Does having 1000 instead of 30,0000 show that there is not an authority problem in protestantism?

No, and that’s another point I have made over the years. The erroneous use of Barret’s figures, in this context, gives a spurious scientific air to claims that do not really require them. For the question of unity, you are correct. 1k is as conclusive as 32k.

GKC

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Remember that the Barrett group defines a denomination as separate for each country in which the church/denomination has a presence. For reasons that escape me, they seem to think there are 242 (as of 2000, anyway) such countries. Given that they seem to usually say 238 denominations for the RCC, it seems unlikely that the number of sui juris Churches in communion with Rome is driving that number, but that the RCC is treated as a unitary Church, with a countable presence in (I suppose) 238 or 242 countries.

GKC

Excellent observation. Thank you for sharing it.

 

[GKC]

Excellent observation. Thank you for sharing it.

You are very welcome.

Been driving around this topic for many years. It is nigh eternal.

GKC

 

[aidanbradypop]

The fact that you consider some of the denominations “not christian” means nothing…they consider themselves christians and perhaps they think you are “not christian” . This just emphasizes the point of why the denominations are there to begin with and why there are so many of them!!

I am curious if you have a more accurate number for Protestant denominations?

Lets say there is 1 Catholic Church, 1 Orthodox Church, 1 Anglican Church, and 1000 Protestant denominations (I think this is a vast understatement).

Is 1000 an acceptable number?

Does having 1000 instead of 30,000 show that they are somehow united?

Does having 1000 instead of 30,0000 show that there is not an authority problem in protestantism?

I had a professor in seminary say something like 10 I believe. Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Arminiainsim, Calvinism, Anabaptist and a couple of others. He stated that those would be the denominations. The sects with those schools of thought are simply fellowships of like minded believers. Not sure I totally agree with his thought process but somewhere along those lines.

Ok…so what do you think is the number? And can you back it up with data?

Hard to say pablo, but if you us Barrett’s model then Catholicism has 242 or something like that which I’m sure you will disagree and so will I.

 

[Thomas1981]

If venerating saints is a good holy practice then tell me why it is. Don’t try to convince me it’s the same as when I put up a photo of my grandmother. It’s not, and it doesn’t matter that it’s not. It can be a good holy thing all on it’s own whether or not I put up a photo of my grandmother or put flowers on her grave.
.

I had a hard time with saint veneration (as a former Lutheran) until I started reading the lives of the saints and praying for their intercession. The lives of saints and the prayers enrich the vocabulary that I use to pray and help me articulate it. That’s why I think of it as praying “through” the saints, rather than praying “to” them. They give me more concrete examples of a Christian life well-lived in more diverse scenarios that expand on those seen in the Bible. It’s like when you have a friend that you are really sympatico with who understands you and “gets” you even when you aren’t really making sense. I find that this makes prayer easier because it provides a more specific focal point in the form of the intercessor.

That’s all I have to say about it, nothing to do with having a picture of my grandmother. The people that are saying that are probably trying to defuse the objection leveled frequently by Protestants that saint veneration and is “idolatry” by making a commonsense comparison. You love your deceased grandmother and have a picture of her, doesn’t make her an idol. I have a feeling this is a more defensive argument than anything.

The

 

[Thomas1981]

I think your question shouldn’t be addresed to protestants but to converts. They can answer what catholic arguments were least persuasive for their conversion. Is evident that for our confident protestants in this forum there are not a possible persuasive argument in catholicism. Neither the division in protestantism, neither John 6 and the Eucharist, neither Mat 16:18, neither the apostolic succession, neither the history of the Bible canon etc… They are immune or they are vaccinated To persuade, at least in spanish, means to convence someone to do o to give up something. In this case a persuasive argument would be an argumente that a protestant would give up to be protestant or he would be catholic. So there are not least persuasive arguments, because for them in fact there are not any persuasive argument.

Saludos.

Yes, I think the simple answer for most confident non-Catholics would simply be, “all of them”

That’s not a dig, the same goes in reverse.

 

[Thomas1981]

I think the 33,000 Protestant denominations thing is supposed to be a demonstration of the folly (from our perspective) of Sola Scriptura more than anything else. It is to show that relying on the Bible alone leads to an indeterminate number of possible interpretations with no guidance. This shows why Jesus entrusted the Church with determining the authoritative interpretation. So there wouldn’t be all of these splits.

Now I’m sure you don’t agree with this, but I think it is an effective argument against those that argue against the authority of Church to interpret scripture. The exact number of denominations doesn’t really matter that much.

My 2 cents.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I think the 33,000 Protestant denominations thing is supposed to be a demonstration of the folly (from our perspective) of Sola Scriptura more than anything else. It is to show that relying on the Bible alone leads to an indeterminate number of possible interpretations with no guidance. This shows why Jesus entrusted the Church with determining the authoritative interpretation. So there wouldn’t be all of these splits.

Now I’m sure you don’t agree with this, but I think it is an effective argument against those that argue against the authority of Church to interpret scripture. The exact number of denominations doesn’t really matter that much.

My 2 cents.

I will respectfully disagree kind Sir.

 

[Thomas1981]

I will respectfully disagree kind Sir.

I didn’t expect to persuade you. I’m just trying to clarify the logic behind the 33,000 denominations argument.
God Bless!

 

[Jon_S_1]

I had a professor in seminary say something like 10 I believe. Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Arminiainsim, Calvinism, Anabaptist and a couple of others. He stated that those would be the denominations. The sects with those schools of thought are simply fellowships of like minded believers. Not sure I totally agree with his thought process I.

I would have to complete reject such an idea!

I mean Calvinism can be divided in tons of ways! (And it is…on essentials).

Let’s look at Calvinism, Presbyterians are calvinists, the Presbyterian church in the USA just sanctioned gay marriage, Surely this will result in more division as similar things have done in the past.

I think the best definition for denomination is “an independent ecclesial body/group”.

So it is about authority. The Presbyterian usa church has authority to say what Presbyterian doctrine is, the UNITED METHODISTS say what Methodism is, the EFCA says what evangelicalism is, etc…

Protestants can say their authority is the Bible, but it’s really them as individuals who band together in like minded groups to form denominations.

Of course there are Methodists that say the United methodists have it wrong…perhaps the Nazarenes which is a separate denomination under the leaning of Methodism.

Then there’s independents…Calvary Chapel, yeah it’s similar to baptist but it’s not baptist. It’s calvary chapel and answers only to Calvary chapel. They could come out and declare Jesus was a Martian and still be Calvary chapel.

Under this real life example, there are no doubt thousands of denominations.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I didn’t expect to persuade you. I’m just trying to clarify the logic behind the 33,000 denominations argument.
God Bless!

I know. It is just the 33,000 is an extremely false number

 

[Thomas1981]

I know. It is just the 33,000 is an extremely false number

I see. I’m just going to go with “lots and lots” from now on.:juggle:

 

[aidanbradypop]

I would have to complete reject such an idea!

I mean Calvinism can be divided in tons of ways! (And it is…on essentials).

Let’s look at Calvinism, Presbyterians are calvinists, the Presbyterian church in the USA just sanctioned gay marriage, Surely this will result in more division as similar things have done in the past.

A church becoming secular does not determine a separate denomination. An example would be TEC and ACNA. One is liberal and the other is semi conservative, yet both are still Anglican.

I think the best definition for denomination is “an independent ecclesial body/group”.

Define what you mean by independent

So it is about authority. The Presbyterian usa church has authority to say what Presbyterian doctrine is, the UNITED METHODISTS say what Methodism is, the EFCA says what evangelicalism is, etc…

Of course there are Methodists that say the United methodists have it wrong…perhaps the Nazarenes which is a separate denomination under the leaning of Methodism.

Then there’s independents…Calvary Chapel, yeah it’s similar to baptist but it’s not baptist. It’s calvary chapel and answers only to Calvary chapel. They could come out and declare Jesus was a Martian and still be Calvary chapel.

Under this real life example, there are no doubt thousands of denominations.

I get what you mean. Many are so similar yet have different traditions.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I will respectfully disagree kind Sir.

What rational explanation do you have to account for the fact that Protestantism has been splintering from it’s earliest moments (Calvin vs Luther) based on their personal, private interpretations of scripture?

 

[pablope]

I know. It is just the 33,000 is an extremely false number

Okay…so what is the right number?

 

[fasolislithuan]

It is important though to present a truthful argument, not so much to convert anyone but to present the truth. I think most posters here who have stayed long enough and posted much, whether Protestants or Catholics, care for the truth of their belief to be presented fairly and to clarify any misunderstanding of what may be erroneously perceived.

Peace.

Reuben.

Correct 100%. Is preferable a good Jesus’ follower (not catholic) confident on his beliefs (althought all of them fails in certain issues ) that an eventual convert that has been exposed to a false truth of the Church of Christ. Moreover, we know many of those truthful converts are later some of our best soldiers .

 

[Tommy999]

For me, the least persuasive arguments, or at least the ones that don’t impress me very much when used are:

1. Defending a Catholic doctrine by quoting section xyz of the Catechism:
   • That is helpful when explaining a Catholic doctrine or belief to an inquiring person like me but it does not carry as much weight when *defending *the faith as the Bible does. Catholics who know their scripture carry a lot of weight with Protestants.

For that reason, I am most impressed by those Catholics who can explain and/or defend their beliefs from scripture, and you know who you are

1. Protestants don’t believe that it is important for Christians to have or do good works.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Okay…so what is the right number?

Hard to say but 33,000 is false my friend

 

[GKC]

Hard to say but 33,000 is false my friend

It is certainly misleading, if based on Barret’s numbers.

But since no one has a statistically dependable number, it might be accurate, by some definitions of denominations, anyway.

No one knows.

GKC