Leaving the Church for now

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rosejmj said:
If Theism is correct, why is one religion the fullness of Truth? Why is the Truth not a non-contradictory combination of the Truth claims in different religions?
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Because religions make contradictory claims to each other. For these to be true at the same time violates the principle of noncontradiction, without which it is impossible to reason.
 
With regard to Original Sin, God made man with free will. If He ran around after man stopping all the bad consequences of his actions, that would essentially mean that man had no free will. Original Sin is a natural consequence of the Fall. Therefore, God could not simply remove this result of the Fall while respecting free will. As for the Crucifixion, it is true that God could have redeemed humanity in another way, but He did it to help us realize His love for us. After all, which is more likely to make an impression, a man who is willing to snap his fingers for you, or a man who is willing to die an excruciatingly painful and shameful death for you?
 
My fore-fathers stepped away from the Catholic Church about 5 generations ago. They eventually wandered very far from home and I can attest that it did not work out as they had hoped. It would have been so much easier for myself if I were raised Catholic by my parents and their parents and their parents and their parents rather than having to spend 20 years searching to find this place called home that my ancestors had abandoned for their own personal reasons.
 
Many people have died for many faiths.

However, we have the Apostles, all of whom save one died for what they said they had seen.

If they had made it up or embellished what they had seen, would they have died rather than reveal the truth?

That is the difference. An adherent of another faith who died for it was not involved in the original founding of the faith, they were dying because they believed someone else.
 
rosejmj said:
I don’t understand why a God would choose to be tortured and die for us. I don’t see it as love. Definitely God could have chosen anything else
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Why do you not see that as an act of love? If a mother goes without food so that her children will be able to eat, isn’t that an act of love? If a man throws himself on a grenade to save the lives of his comrades, isn’t that an act of love?

Christ died to open the gates of Heaven so that we could be with God–to save our spiritual lives. Why is that not an act of love?
rosejmj said:
God shouldn’t have made us anyway if he didn’t want us to be with him forever.
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He died so that we could be with Him forever. Instead of making it easy for us and for Himself, He did it this way.

Think about a student whose parents do all his homework for him. He gets good grades, but he loses his education. Sometimes it is not good for us to have things made easy.
rosejmj said:
It is not our fault we were born with concupiscence.
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No, it is not our personal fault. But it is the xase.

Some of us are born with health problems, some are born I to bad environments. None of that is the individual’s fault, but it is something the individual has to learn to deal with. He can sit back and feel sorry for himself and do whatever he wants, including hurting himself and others, or he can rise above the problems of his birth.
 
If our OP is still reading, I would suggest that they take two hours out of their next couple of days and listen to these two youtube podcasts. I will say as I have said before, do not be scared off by the title of the group, this podcast was named after the Matrix (the phrase has been hijacked by some).

These are former intellectual atheists who present two strong pieces of evidence over two podcasts:


 
OP, since you say you’re a lifelong Catholic, you may want to read this thread before you sever your ties with the Church. Read the OP’s article. This is by no means meant to scare, rather to make you fully recognize the possible consequences of such a drastic decision.
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"Q. Can people really go to Hell?" A Response to This Question from a Priest Spirituality
see Can people really go to Hell - Catholic Action For Faith and Family Some people have difficulty thinking there is such a place. This helps to show how it makes sense.
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Faith is a gift from God, turning away from your “culture” and all you have known is not the way to find out more about yourself because it is the truth that this culture is founded on that brings forth: beauty, practical compassion and love for people and creation and the power of truth. You seem to be taking a lot for granted. The secular West because of the denial of how much Christianity is at the base and foundation of our culture is endangering the future of a culture based on equality (all people are equal in God), justice, mercy and science. Hospitals, universities, schools and orphanages in the West all were inspired by Christianity. Look at the incredible medieval cathedrals: their beauty and technical brilliance were inspired by a devotion to God. Without Christianity the culture of the West becomes empty very quickly. It makes sense because of God and truth, love and beauty.

I was raised atheist and converted to Catholicism (ancient Christianity) at age 19. My kids would not exist if I did not believe in God because before my conversion marriage had no meaning. Marriage seemed pointless and I know many atheists who feel that way, because faithfulness has no meaning without God. Why be faithful? What is the point of being with one person all your life if there isn’t a deeper meaning and as a reflection of God’s constant faithfulness to us.

Two of my children and myself have all had cancer and we are all healed and thriving. I give credit to the incredible medical care we received but the ability to still live in hope, joy and contentment is down to faith.
 
This is a very short article by a young woman who is the exact opposite of you: she was raised secular and converted to Christianity.

I thought it might interest you because she came to understand the emptiness of secularism, which seems to be kind of where you want to go.
 
I have felt that way, myself. That’s why I was out of the church for several decades. But then I had no religion, and I wanted something more than life without it. That’s when I joined the Catholic church. I’ve always had the thought that people believe what they want to believe. I thought, "Well, what if I’m right? I want to be a Catholic and I want to believe. " So that’s how I got here. I chose to believe.

So, is the Church right? Am I right? I don’t know, but I like to think so, and I hope so. Guess I’m like Peter–I wouldn’t know where else to go. Therefore, I simply choose to believe.
 
Vico,
I have cited this in the past, “To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
— St. Thomas Aquinas
I find it often is appropriate in situations such as this.
 
@rosejmj
I don’t understand why a God would choose to be tortured and die for us. I don’t see it as love. Definitely God could have chosen anything else
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At Mount Sinai, God gave Moses instructions for animal sacrifice for the remission of sins. The sinner would lean on a spotless animal as it was being slaughtered so he would understand the gravity of his bad deeds.

Keep in mind that the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph followed the laws of sacrifice when they presented Jesus at the temple.

Animal sacrifices under the old covenant foreshadowed Jesus’ death on the cross. Jesus is the Spotless Lamb, whose perfect sacrifice on the cross paid for our redemption.
 
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What is faith if you need proof? Blessed are those who believe and have not seen. Buck up! You can’t see God in nature? Or the cosmos or the vast diversity of life on this planet? From the smallest microorganisms to the living planet that we inhabit. With its seasons and molten core. Ne’r have we found with all our technology another like it shall I go on? What of the love you feel for your family, friends and loved ones? The complex beings that we are. We have taken this planet and by the grace of had dominion over it. Take a few days and pray your rosary, trust in the Lord and He will answer you. Remember, God governs the universe but prayer governs God. I’ll be praying for you too. God love you.
 
Sirach 15:14-17

When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
 
rosejmj said:
I think I believe in a God or some higher power. It makes sense for there to be some higher Being. I have trouble believing in the Christian God though

Seems like a made up entity to make people feel good
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When I was young, I left for awhile and came back for reasons having to do with doctrine I didn’t really have right. (I didn’t understand the whole idea of invincible ignorance.)

I’d suggest reading C.S. Lewis’ “Mere Christianity,” or even his autobiography, “Surprised by Joy.” He started out considering himself an extremely logical atheist, but the logic of the faith tracked him down.

Also, I would suggest you not stop spending spiritual time. If you don’t pray, then meditate. Keep your heart open, though, and avoid getting pulled into a life in which you don’t stop to know where you are on a regular basis.
 
rosejmj said:
I don’t understand why a God would choose to be tortured and die for us. I don’t see it as love. Definitely God could have chosen anything else. And just because he chose a more painful bloody way to “save us” doesn’t mean there is more love in it or that we should somehow be more than happy kful and indebted. God shouldn’t have made us anyway if he didn’t want us to be with him forever. It is not our fault we were born with concupiscence. Not our choice that God chose a more painful way. His choice to make us- a “free gift”. I don’t see why he should expect a ton of love and gratitude. I don’t want to be ride but it seems almost stupid that he chose to save us by being tortured to death.

Of course God refers to the Christian God
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Well, it could be the only way to really create a sentient being that could make its own choices and learn to love in a way that really is a free response and isn’t some mechanical instinctual reaction is to allow people to make very bad choices that are contrary to plain reality. If God is love and love is the plain reality of the universe but love involves an act of sentient will, then making sentient beings could just logically have to involve letting those beings make choices rooted in unreality, choices that cause pain and suffering, choices that are contrary to the truth about themselves. Well, if you’re going to make someone face that kind of reality, would you be loving if you weren’t willing to go through that reality yourself in order to save them from the use of their free will that isn’t love?

That’s one thought exercise, but you can see that the whole concept of the Redemption really isn’t as outlandish as it might sound on first glance.

When we say God is all-Powerful, we don’t mean God can act in a way that is counter to God’s own nature. If the nature of God is love, you can see where there could have to be Persons in the Godhead, because love is, by its nature, a relational matter. One doesn’t have a “relationship” with oneself.

Sometimes, in science, we find that the answer we think ought to be the answer because it is straightforward and makes so much sense just can’t be the answer, because reality is weird and straightforward explanations fail to explain reality. Reality has kinks and wrinkles that you wouldn’t imagine. Reality is literally awe-inspiring. It is wonderful. It is not pat or simple. So, whatever religion is true, expect it to be as free from the pat and the straight-forward and the intellectually not-taxing as physical reality is. It would only make sense, right?
 
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rosejmj said:
Well I yu could look at one of my other topics- “God’s fault we are sinners”
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I’m sorry you’re feeling this way rosejmj,I did take a look at your other topics and you mention having depression.
I had a bit of it a couple of years ago (marriage breakdown) and that’s why I came back to CAF ,seeking support …and also asking for prayer because I found it difficult to pray ,to form the words in my mind as I was under stress.
You haven’t been on CAF for very long I don’t think,but coming here must be for a reason ,a trying to understand the faith :pray:t2:to seek support of a kind.
If could wish anything it would be that you just spend quiet time in front of the tabernacle ,not even having to form words.Know Our Lady is there too.
There were some good suggestions on that other thread also.
Take care.
 
rosejmj said:
Seems like a made up entity to make people feel good
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Seems a strange God to make up so we can feel good. If that were the case, I’d make up a new one that says all my sins against chastity, lying, vindictive and vengeful attitude toward my neighbors, and drunkenness were totally fine. I’ve struggled with those before, and I certainly don’t feel great whenever I’ve transgressed.
rosejmj said:
Searching, maybe taking a little break so that I can be more open to other ideas and beliefs.
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G.K. Chesterton said the purpose of an open mind was the same as an open mouth: to eventually shut on something solid. Question is, is there something more solid you’ve found? Regardless of whether you fully understand every point of doctrine, whether it “clicks,” it’s difficult to maintain that the Catholic faith, with all its philosophy and theology and study and serious scholarship—and all of it so consistent, fitting, and beautiful—is not solid.
 
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