Leeann, a question for you and anyone else who might like to answer.

[ralphinal]

Don’t add to the Word of God.

Ah, my freind, do not take away from it. Everything that I have posted there is Biblical. You can check it and see. THe issue is not that I am adding it is that you are ignoring.

Check Jesus in John praying that we all be one. Check the whole NT about what it means to be Holy. Acts shows the Apostles in leadership roles AND it shows that they replaced one when one was gone. You can see in many of the Epistles that there should be leadership in the form of Apostles. Finally, Peter discussion Baptism as washing away sins.

Now, all that is in there. Is it all in your church?

 

[guanophore]

Does anyone know if these curses of Trent have ever been renounced by the church?:

“If any man shall say that Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is not to be adored in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, even with the open worship of latria, and therefore not to be venerated with any peculiar festal celebrity, nor to be solemnly carried about in processions according to the praiseworthy, and universal rites and customs of the holy Church, and that he is not to be publicly set before the people to be adored, and that his adorers are idolaters–let him be accursed” (Canon 6).

“If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will … let him be accursed” (Canon 9).

“If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified … let him be accursed” (Canon 12).

No. Why would they?

Whats the difference? These curses still stand do they not?

Yes. It is the duty of the Church to be the pillar and bulwark of the Truth. The church must stand up strongly against heresies, and clearly distinguish for the faithful the truth from the false.

I have no problem using the term you think is most correct. However it still does not change the fact that Trent did “cut off” protestants from the church which would also mean they were condemned since salvation can only be found in the Catholic church. Would this be correct?

No, this is not correct. The Heretics that Trent was addressing had already cut themselves off by abandoning the Apostolic faith. Trent was making clear statements about the error in doctrine that caused this, and warning the faithful that, if they also chose to embrace these heresies, they would also be cut off.

The purpose of this strong response is not to condemn people, but to encourage them to abandon error, and return to the truth, before it is too late.

 

[Reformed]

Ah, my freind, do not take away from it. Everything that I have posted there is Biblical. You can check it and see. THe issue is not that I am adding it is that you are ignoring.

Check Jesus in John praying that we all be one. Check the whole NT about what it means to be Holy. Acts shows the Apostles in leadership roles AND it shows that they replaced one when one was gone. You can see in many of the Epistles that there should be leadership in the form of Apostles. Finally, Peter discussion Baptism as washing away sins.

Now, all that is in there. Is it all in your church?

The only way to settle this is through our Bible Studies. Here are the links to our bibe studies together… and a little more too.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273731&page=30

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277468

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277394&page=2

 

[guanophore]

Bibilcal creeds and confessions are good and belong to the catholic church. I too am catholic. Creeds and confessions that are not biblical are to be rejected in light of Scirpture.

The problem with this is that the “light” of Scripture comes from the mind of the reader. One understands what they read in the light of what they have been taught. That is why there are so many different understandings of scripture. CAtholics can say that Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, and Mormons say He is not God. We are both reading the same scripture.

 

[Reformed]

The problem with this is that the “light” of Scripture comes from the mind of the reader. One understands what they read in the light of what they have been taught. That is why there are so many different understandings of scripture. CAtholics can say that Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, and Mormons say He is not God. We are both reading the same scripture.

God the Holy Spirit is almighty God.

 

[guanophore]

The only way to settle this is through our Bible Studies.

I find it notable that your method of settling disputes between believers is so different than what Christ taught.

 

[Reformed]

I find it notable that your method of settling disputes between believers is so different than what Christ taught.

I’m not sure if Jesus was too kind to the religious leaders in authority of his days on earth.

 

[guanophore]

God the Holy Spirit is almighty God.

Indeed. And we will all agree that God does not contradict himself. Therefore, since there are so many contradictory interpretations, does it not logically follow that it is our fallen minds that are the problem?

 

[Reformed]

Indeed. And we will all agree that God does not contradict himself. Therefore, since there are so many contradictory interpretations, does it not logically follow that it is our fallen minds that are the problem?

Romans 12 tells us the following:

Romans 12

12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, [1] by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. [2] 2 Do not be conformed to this world, [3] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure if Jesus was too kind to the religious leaders in authority of his days on earth.

I am quite certain He was not! What does this have to with HIs teaching on how to settle disputes between the brethren?

 

[guanophore]

Romans 12 tells us the following:

Romans 12

12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, [1] by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. [2] 2 Do not be conformed to this world, [3] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

I hope you did not think was advocating that we should grovel around in our fallible state! The fact that we have presented ourselves for transformation and renewal, however, does in no way indicate that the process is completed this side of the pearly gates. I am very willing to conceded that many faithful people are fervently seeking the Truth in HIs word. However, these many faithful people still arrive at opposite conclusions.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Essentially you’re making the statement that anyone outside the Roman church is a heretic and possibly demon-influenced if not possessed.

That is not what I said. There are many outside of the faith who are there due to ignorance and not by malice. The Church teaches that those born and raised in such circumstances are imputed the guilt of formal heresy, even though they hold to heretical doctrines.

But, as per the context of this thread, there are those who claim that ‘the Spirit’ has guided them out of the Catholic Church to some other ecclesial community or that ‘the Spirit’ tells them that the Catholic Church is wrong on this or that. And, any spirit that drives you out of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church (the Catholic Church) is not a holy spirit.

So, truly there are only two reasons for a person not to be a member of the Catholic Church - ignorance or deception. They are either ignorant of the faith, in which case we must evangelize them, or they have been deceived by themselves or others.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Does anyone know if these curses of Trent have ever been renounced by the church?:

“If any man shall say that Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is not to be adored in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, even with the open worship of latria, and therefore not to be venerated with any peculiar festal celebrity, nor to be solemnly carried about in processions according to the praiseworthy, and universal rites and customs of the holy Church, and that he is not to be publicly set before the people to be adored, and that his adorers are idolaters–let him be accursed” (Canon 6).

“If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will … let him be accursed” (Canon 9).

“If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified … let him be accursed” (Canon 12).

There isn’t just one place for canons. There were canons for each of the different sessions of the Councils. There are alot more canons and sessions than what you posted. The first one quoted is Canon Six from Session Thirteen. The second one quoted is Canon Nine from Session Six. And the third one quoted is Canon Twelve also from Session Six. The common translation is anathema (the proper term). Here are the translations by J. Waterworth in the 19th century.

Session VI:

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

Session XIII:

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that, in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, is not to be adored with the worship, even external of latria; and is, consequently, neither to be venerated with a special festive solemnity, nor to be solemnly borne about in processions, according to the laudable and universal rite and custom of holy church; or, is not to be proposed publicly to the people to be adored, and that the adorers thereof are idolators; let him be anathema.

And yes, those anathemas still remain in force.

 

[justasking4]

There isn’t just one place for canons. There were canons for each of the different sessions of the Councils. There are alot more canons and sessions than what you posted. The first one quoted is Canon Six from Session Thirteen. The second one quoted is Canon Nine from Session Six. And the third one quoted is Canon Twelve also from Session Six. The common translation is anathema (the proper term). Here are the translations by J. Waterworth in the 19th century.

Session VI:

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

Session XIII:

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that, in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, is not to be adored with the worship, even external of latria; and is, consequently, neither to be venerated with a special festive solemnity, nor to be solemnly borne about in processions, according to the laudable and universal rite and custom of holy church; or, is not to be proposed publicly to the people to be adored, and that the adorers thereof are idolators; let him be anathema.

And yes, those anathemas still remain in force.

Thank you for your research. With these things in force how can Catholics consider Protestants “separated brethern” when they are essentially cursed and doomed to hell?

 

[guanophore]

Thank you for your research. With these things in force how can Catholics consider Protestants “separated brethern” when they are essentially cursed and doomed to hell?

The anathemas are for those who are Catholic. The Catholic church has jurisdiction over her membership, to guide them into all truth. The vast majority of persons who adhere to these heretical teachings have been taught to do so all their lives. They have never been exposed to Cathlic faith, and do not realize that their doctrines emanate from the traditions of men, or that they are separated from the Apostolic faith. It is not right to charge such persons with heresy. Heresy is a willful departure from the truth.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Thank you for your research. With these things in force how can Catholics consider Protestants “separated brethern” when they are essentially cursed and doomed to hell?

They are separated because even though they do not possess the fullness of truth, they are still part of the Mystical Body of Christ via a valid Baptism.

They are not necessarily doomed to hell. As I stated earlier, most Protestants were raised that way and are ignorant of the true teachings of the Church. It gets more bleak for those who have learned of the truth of the Catholic faith and reject, or even worse those who possessed the fullness of truth, being Catholic, and then reject it for a lesser truth.

But still, an anathema is not an eternal judgment - that is reserved to God. It is a pronouncement of (mostly) warning with the primary purpose of drawing those who incur it back to the true faith.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Thank you for your research. With these things in force how can Catholics consider Protestants “separated brethern” when they are essentially cursed and doomed to hell?

That is not an accurate description of Catholic Doctrine.

From the cathechism:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[Reformed]

I believe the anathemas of the Council of Trent are applied differently to pre Vatiican II and post Vatican II protestants, correct? There’s that moving target of Sacred Tradition again.

 

[Good_Fella]

I believe the anathemas of the Council of Trent are applied differently to pre Vatiican II and post Vatican II protestants, correct? There’s that moving target of Sacred Tradition again.

Vatican ll did not lift or shift the anathemas “infallibly” declared specifically against members of the Catholic Church who challenged and taught against the doctrines of the Church during the Reformation. An infallible declaration of the Sacred/Universal Magisterium cannot be revised or revoked.

PAX :tanning:

 

[guanophore]

I believe the anathemas of the Council of Trent are applied differently to pre Vatiican II and post Vatican II protestants, correct? There’s that moving target of Sacred Tradition again.

Actually, what you are observing is the pastoral response of the Magesterium. The Sacred Tradition is part of the once for all divine deposit of faith, and therefore, cannot be changed. Our undrerstanding of it has changed. It has become clear that persons are born and raised with heretical beliefs that have never known the truth taught by the Apostles. One cannot charge them with heresy, since they never received the Apostolic Teaching in the first place, or they received a very warped perception of it. What most Protesatants have been taught about Catholicism is nothing close to what it really is. We can see clear evidence of this in your posts from the first time you entered this forum. Such a spouting of error, deception, calumny and misinformation is not uncommon here. I would prefer to think that you were passing on the information you have recieved.