Lent: Debate with a protestant

[ephesians2]

It depends what your friend means. If your friend is saying fasting and praying and remembering the Savior’s death is not biblical then she has a problem.

If she is saying that the New Testament does not give Christians a specific calendar to follow such as the Jews had in Old Testament and as a Protestant it is not binding on her conscience to observe Lent, then she is correct.

It really depends on the context of what she conveying.

Many Protestants (Lutherans especially, Reformed and others) observe Lent, but is not an obligation. It is my favorite time of the year- the remembrance of what the Savior’s work on the cross accomplished. Beautiful Savior!

 

[zz912]

At one point, Jesus was teaching His followers about fasting, almsgiving, and penance. The funny thing about the teaching, is He didn’t say IF you do these things, He said WHEN you do these things.

They aren’t optional.

 

[rfournier103]

At one point, Jesus was teaching His followers about fasting, almsgiving, and penance. The funny thing about the teaching, is He didn’t say IF you do these things, He said WHEN you do these things.

They aren’t optional.

Very good, ZZ. You’d get my gold star for the day if I had one to give you.

 

[zz912]

There are many things we Catholics refer to that are not in the Bible, The Crucifix wasn’t brought in until several years after Jesus passion, we must remember our Bible was finished shortly after Jesus accession.

The crucifix is older than the NT.

Gal 3:1 O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

The Galatians were not in Jerusalem on Good Friday. So how was Christ publicly portrayed as crucified? Answer, a crucifix.

 

[zz912]

Very good, ZZ. You’d get my gold star for the day if I had one to give you.

:tiphat:

 

[ephesians2]

At one point, Jesus was teaching His followers about fasting, almsgiving, and penance. The funny thing about the teaching, is He didn’t say IF you do these things, He said WHEN you do these things.

They aren’t optional.

100% agree with you, zz912!

What her friend might be saying is as a Protestant, she is called to do this everyday of her life. Fasting is an exception obviously because we all need to eat and drink, but she can fast in other ways as a Roman Catholic can. She just is not obligated to follow the Roman Catholic rules or ways of observing Lent, while she still may observe it in the way the Lord is calling her to. Everyday a Protestant/Christian is called to live as Christ lived and to remember what his or her Savior has accomplished.

 

[ephesians2]

The crucifix is older than the NT.

Gal 3:1 O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

The Galatians were not in Jerusalem on Good Friday. So how was Christ publicly portrayed as crucified? Answer, a crucifix./QUOTE

So, you don’t think Paul said this because at that time notices were posted about such events as crucifixions, word spread to Christians and most likely non-Christians about Christ’s death/resurrection and because the Galatians had heard and read Paul’s (and/or other apostles) preaching and letters and moved by the Spirit, they had faith? Paul says in the next verse- “Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh?” …and so on…

This passage in Galatians is talking about faith and works of the law- which one saves as does Galatians 2. I’d disagree from the context that Paul was talking about a crucifix of Jesus in the verse you quoted.

 

[rfournier103]

100% agree with you, zz912!

What her friend might be saying is as a Protestant, she is called to do this everyday of her life. Fasting is an exception obviously because we all need to eat and drink, but she can fast in other ways as a Roman Catholic can. She just is not obligated to follow the Roman Catholic rules or ways of observing Lent, while she still may observe it in the way the Lord is calling her to. Everyday a Protestant/Christian is called to live as Christ lived and to remember what his or her Savior has accomplished.

Of course the Protestant friend isn’t obligated to observe Lent the same way as we Catholics do… and that’s okay. But to slam how we observe Lent as being “un-Biblical” (when it clearly IS Biblical) is un-charitable AT BEST. Maybe the friend should enlighten herself and know what she’s talking about before she puts us down. I don’t mean to sound like a Bhuddist, but enlightenment is far too uncommon nowadays; and ignorance far too commonplace.

 

[dronald]

100% agree with you, zz912!

What her friend might be saying is as a Protestant, she is called to do this everyday of her life. Fasting is an exception obviously because we all need to eat and drink, but she can fast in other ways as a Roman Catholic can. She just is not obligated to follow the Roman Catholic rules or ways of observing Lent, while she still may observe it in the way the Lord is calling her to. Everyday a Protestant/Christian is called to live as Christ lived and to remember what his or her Savior has accomplished.

I think both sides should be able to agree with this. I think (and this is merely my opinion) Catholics have tradition of doing things since birth and feel it should be binding on all Christians in the exact same way. Now, what’s in the Bible or how it came about, etc, etc, etc, is one thing; but both sides need to understand that this is not worth arguing about.

As Paul said:

1 Corin 10:23 "All things are lawful, " but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful, " but not all things build up.

And again

Romans 14:3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him…15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died…17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Also, Galatians 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

1 Tim 4:3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving

Let’s stop arguing over elementary principals. Protestants are wrong for judging the righteous practices of Catholics and Catholics are wrong for judging a Protestant who abstains.

 

[HeteroDoxical]

Neither are cars or radio or tv … does that mean that she doesn’t accept them, since they’re not in the Bible?

I’m protestant, tell her neither is trinity. The best verses for it didn’t show up until the 1400s.

Tell her neither is the structure of the Protestant Churches, she can read Eph 4:11-17 then read 1 Clement who wrote about the time John wrote the epistle and revelations and match notes between them.

There is dang sure nuttin protestant in that look from the Apostle, and one of the first generations of people he taught and trained.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

You tell her that THE BIBLE SAYS that Jesus fasted and prayed for FORTY DAYS in the wilderness (Matthew 4:1-11). Then tell her that THE BIBLE SAYS that we are to be imitators of God and Christ (Ephesians 5:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 2:14, and 1 Corinthians 11:1).

Fasting and prayer over the course of FORTY DAYS before Easter is one of the most Biblical practices we Catholics observe, wouldn’t you say? If she doesn’t think this kind of discipline, prayer, and dedication to Jesus isn’t worth it, or that He wouldn’t appreciate it is her cross to bear, not yours.

If this friend of yours is still not convinced, please tell her about Catholic Answers Forums and where she can find me. I would love to talk to her.

:yup::clapping:

 

[Vico]

Im in a debate with a protestant and she is insisting that Lent is not Biblical.

The earliest reference to 40 days fast, is third century Origen who wrote “we [Christians] have forty days dedicated to fasting; we have the fourth [Wednesday] and sixth day [Friday] of the week on which we regularly fast.”

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baylor.edu%2Fcontent%2Fservices%2Fdocument.php%2F193181.pdf&ei=wGAZU-r9IobckQfk2oGYBw&usg=AFQjCNE1xuNsrx62xrkc78-03xUv71fA8w&bvm=bv.62578216,d.eW0&cad=rja

 

[ephesians2]

I think both sides should be able to agree with this. I think (and this is merely my opinion) Catholics have tradition of doing things since birth and feel it should be binding on all Christians in the exact same way. Now, what’s in the Bible or how it came about, etc, etc, etc, is one thing; but both sides need to understand that this is not worth arguing about.

As Paul said:

1 Corin 10:23 "All things are lawful, " but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful, " but not all things build up.

And again

Romans 14:3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him…15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died…17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Also, Galatians 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

1 Tim 4:3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving

Let’s stop arguing over elementary principals. Protestants are wrong for judging the righteous practices of Catholics and Catholics are wrong for judging a Protestant who abstains.

Good points and Scripture quotes.

I’d still like to know the context in which this friend of the OP was speaking…

 

[zz912]

100% agree with you, zz912!

What her friend might be saying is as a Protestant, she is called to do this everyday of her life. Fasting is an exception obviously because we all need to eat and drink, but she can fast in other ways as a Roman Catholic can. She just is not obligated to follow the Roman Catholic rules or ways of observing Lent, while she still may observe it in the way the Lord is calling her to. Everyday a Protestant/Christian is called to live as Christ lived and to remember what his or her Savior has accomplished.

That is fine if her friend wishes to do so, but she goes off the rails when she claims that Lent is unscriptural. (It would make her argument foolish if she does these things every day, and then complains about Catholics focusing for 40 days on them).

And I just don’t buy it when people claim they do these things every day all year. It takes somewhat focused attention to really do these things, and humans simply can’t sustain unlimited focus. There is a reason that God set up 40 as a good amount of time for us to focus on those things most important.

 

[zz912]

zz912;11771253:

The crucifix is older than the NT.

Gal 3:1 O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified

?

The Galatians were not in Jerusalem on Good Friday. So how was Christ publicly portrayed as crucified? Answer, a crucifix.

There were no Christians in Galatia. IIRC, Paul traveled there in the 40’s or 50’s for the first time, and proclaimed the Gospel. So no, they had no knowledge of Christ until many years after His death and resurrection. And also, no, they didn’t send out notices about the execution of a leader of a small group of Jews. The only notice they gave was the sign nailed to the top of the cross.

You seem to be turning yourself into a pretzel to try and dodge the obvious meaning of Christ being publicly portrayed as crucified.

 

[zz912]

Catholics have tradition of doing things since birth and feel it should be binding on all Christians in the exact same way.

and Catholics are wrong for judging a Protestant who abstains.

Which Catholics have judged a Protestant who abstains, or claimed that Lent is binding on non-catholics?

 

[HeteroDoxical]

There are many things we Catholics refer to that are not in the Bible, The Crucifix wasn’t brought in until several years after Jesus passion, we must remember our Bible was finished shortly after Jesus accession.

70 years is shortly after?

 

[HeteroDoxical]

They don’t really have any structure on when and what they preach like we do - not all - so they won’t understand . Only recently in my city have they started having a service on Good Friday -they never did before.I’ll bet lots go to N.O. Collecting bead not understanding it’s the day before lent - even some Catholic don’t know that.

The “non denominational” churches and some denominational ones as well, have been pushing more ecumenical service traditions.

They have come to a point where they can teach their people, without them freaking the heck out and burning the pastor’s house down, that good friday, and such are not bad traditions. That there is a scriptural and Godly focus involved.

That’s a good thing.

The biggest problem for you as RCC, is the loudest protestants are the ones you hear from and they are the most whacked. The normal protestant would most likely not care about the RCC and PROT issues.

There’s a lotta hope there…

A lotta **** there too.

 

[ephesians2]

That is fine if her friend wishes to do so, but she goes off the rails when she claims that Lent is unscriptural. (It would make her argument foolish if she does these things every day, and then complains about Catholics focusing for 40 days on them).

And I just don’t buy it when people claim they do these things every day all year. It takes somewhat focused attention to really do these things, and humans simply can’t sustain unlimited focus. There is a reason that God set up 40 as a good amount of time for us to focus on those things most important.

In regards to your first paragraph- That is why we should really know in what context her friend was speaking.

In regards to your last paragraph- As a Christian, your life should be Christ-centered EVERYDAY OF YOUR LIFE, but no one can live a perfect, sinless life except for the Son, so yes there are days where you will fail. But if you are His, you will hear His voice and you will regain your focus.

It would be silly to “buy it” that all Roman Catholics in the world follow Lent all 40 days as well. But like your opinion stated, “And I just don’t buy it when people claim they do these things every day all year.” my opinion just stated is just that, not fact but opinion.

One question for you zz912-

Are you saying that for the 40 days of Lent you are focused on Christ, what He accomplished on the cross, His resurrection and His Great Commission, (fasting and almsgiving included) but then the rest of the 325 days of the year, you are not?

 

[GEddie]

70 years is shortly after?

On the time scale of the Jewish religion, yes.

Hint, we are now in Jewish year 5774.

ICXC NIKA