Let Mormons be Mormon and Catholics be Catholics

[why_me]

After reading the link the thing that really struck me is that this is their big apologetics site. If this is the best they can do then that is truly shocking. Not even a minimal attempt at real historical studies.

There are also more articles dealing with the apostacy. I just posted one light article. To understand the lds position on apostacy, one must also look into church history after the time of the apostles. Much happened during that time. In fact, there is a tv documentary in my area, which highlights catholic history during the dark ages. It is not a pretty picture. That being said, I am not concerned about history, be it catholic or lds. History is made by imperfect people and that will never change. And as I keep this in mind when I read catholic history, the catholics should also keep it in mind when they read lds history.

 

[why_me]

I believe part of why they like to converse with Catholics is as they always have said Catholics make the best mormons. They do target them in that respect.

I don’t think so. It is just that there are a billion catholics in the world. They are difficult to ignore. But such is life when a church has a billion members.

 

[christianley]

There are also more articles dealing with the apostacy. I just posted one light article. To understand the lds position on apostacy, one must also look into church history after the time of the apostles. Much happened during that time. In fact, there is a tv documentary in my area, which highlights catholic history during the dark ages. It is not a pretty picture. That being said, I am not concerned about history, be it catholic or lds. History is made by imperfect people and that will never change. And as I keep this in mind when I read catholic history, the catholics should also keep it in mind when they read lds history.

That’s where the Book of Mormon becomes crucial. If the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be you would be forced to choose between the LDS or one of its many break-offs. If the Book of Mormon is a fraud, then there is no reason to become or remain Mormon. The truth of a church cannot be judged by the actions of its imperfect members. You must look at what the members believe more than what the members do or you will never be able to join any church. As I’ve heard Billy Graham say, “If you ever find a perfect church, join it and it won’t be perfect anymore.”

 

[why_me]

Here is an article dealing with the apostacy that has more meat to it. It deals with the second century. We need to remember that we are dealing with a catholic bible since the passages that were cannonized came from the catholic church, as I understand it.

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/1999_Corruption_of_Scripture_in_the_Second_Century.html

 

[majick275]

I really think you need to look at some of the early Christian writers. we have records available that seem to show a continuity of doctrine from the NT to the early Christians and up to the present. we see in many of the ECFs explanations of scripture and tradition that are definitely Catholic back in the first and second centuries.

Here is a good link to view for yourself:

searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/ant/

what we don’t have any evidence of is any semblance of uniquely mormon doctrines or practices in any of the early writings. This even though the beliefs and practices of the heretics are well documented. What I find even more amazing is that we don’t see the mormon church of today even in the BoM. where are the eternal marriages? importance of temple endowments? where are the doctrines and practices that are called out as essential by modern LDS leaders in the BoM? it isn’t even provable as a “restoration” by the BoM. it is ALL new.

 

[Allweather]

Here is an article dealing with the apostacy that has more meat to it. It deals with the second century. We need to remember that we are dealing with a catholic bible since the passages that were cannonized came from the catholic church, as I understand it.

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/1999_Corruption_of_Scripture_in_the_Second_Century.html

That is just an incredible amount of wasted energy. You’d think a Phd could find better things to do with his time.

Without getting into the mechanics of the arguments he is making, which I am unqualified to do in any case, it is worth pointing out that the canon wasn’t finalized until the middle of the 4th century. It goes without saying that there were, and had been, controversies surrounding what came to be known as the New Testament. That’s why there was a need for a canon.

The Catholic Church, under the guidance of the same Holy Ghost who inspired the writers of the documents that became the NT, decided upon the canon, and we can trust that this is the perfect collection of books, and that they contain exactly what God wants them to contain.

The Mormons and JWs could spend their time a heckuva lot more productively if they’d stop wasting it trying to prove the ridiculous.

 

[GrammasRose]

I did find it was easier to convert Catholics then it was to convert a Protestant. The Catholics were easily fooled by the proof-texts Mormons provided because they generally aren’t as well-versed in the Bible as Protestants are. The Catholics are often not very well-versed in Catholicism either.

I think it depends on where they are. I know some Catholics that are extremely well versed and know their Catholicism. I guess it really is dependent also on what one wants to put into it.

 

[cestusdei]

I took a look at the article. Basically it is referring to the compilation and canonization of scripture. This took several centuries. The lds view is that because an author quoted from Clement that this perverted scripture. They miss the point that the canon had not yet been set. It was in the process of coming together. It is by the authority of the Church that we even have a canon or that the gospel was ever written down at all. Were there attempts to produce bogus scriptures? Yes and they note that our own Church Fathers stopped this. Nice that they give them so much credence. I can warn you about another bogus scripture produced much later, it’s called the book of mormon.

I can understand their problem. Their canon was written by one man, Smith. It was produced by him very rapidly. Although their current books are not the same as the ones that Smith wrote. Plenty of little “changes” like “white and delightsome people” to “pure” people.

Then they argue that the Bible leaves out some interpretations that Jesus must have given behind closed doors. Perhaps they mean Tradition. They can find that in the Church founded by Jesus namely the Catholic Church. Nowhere does the Bible claim to contain all that Jesus did, but that doesn’t mean Jesus took a trip over to Mexico. They claim some things were edited out of scripture. How do they know? Why because that stuff isn’t in there. Circular logic anyone?

You will note that they don’t offer even one fragment that shows early mormon beliefs. Not one. If this is the best they can do then I repeat…pathetic.

 

[christianley]

Here is an article dealing with the apostacy that has more meat to it. It deals with the second century. We need to remember that we are dealing with a catholic bible since the passages that were cannonized came from the catholic church, as I understand it.

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/1999_Corruption_of_Scripture_in_the_Second_Century.html

Once again a Mormon writes an article that puts in doubt the trustworthiness of the Biblical text. Is it any wonder so many of them become atheists when their faith in the Book of Mormon is undermined? By the way, M. Russell Ballard’s talk in General Conference on Sunday stands in opposition to Gee’s article – he talked about the miracle of the preservation of the Holy Bible through the ages and how it was inspired. Once again the so-called Mormon scholars stand in opposition to their General Authorities just like they do on the Book of Mormon. The Mormon scholars have to try to undermine Christianity to prove their point. If this is like other articles from FAIR, I’m certain this professor is using quotes that are out of context in order to make his point. I don’t have the time to take it apart, but maybe someone else does.

 

[why_me]

Once again a Mormon writes an article that puts in doubt the trustworthiness of the Biblical text. Is it any wonder so many of them become atheists when their faith in the Book of Mormon is undermined? By the way, M. Russell Ballard’s talk in General Conference on Sunday stands in opposition to Gee’s article – he talked about the miracle of the preservation of the Holy Bible through the ages and how it was inspired. Once again the so-called Mormon scholars stand in opposition to their General Authorities just like they do on the Book of Mormon. The Mormon scholars have to try to undermine Christianity to prove their point. If this is like other articles from FAIR, I’m certain this professor is using quotes that are out of context in order to make his point. I don’t have the time to take it apart, but maybe someone else does.

Mormon scholars as scholars everywhere stand in opposition with each other at times. However, the bible is an ispired text but it has been passed on through the ages and much has been left out of the canon and as the article demonstrates changed. And it is here that we have the problem. What we have today is a catholic chosen bible. And that is fine. But much was left out during that selection process. However, even luther had a hard time following a catholic inspired bible and wanted to omit James from the canon because of his stance on works, I believe.

The LDS church does not undermine christianity; rather the lds church expounds upon it. And it gives christianity more depth. However, the bible is inspired but it has been mishandled throughout its history. And it is here that we have the problem. Also, catholics need to realize that mistakes were made during the dark ages in regards to religious practice and there was much corruption. This is not the fault of the catholic church but of men and women in the faith. Hence the dark ages. For some at that time and through out its history, power corrupted the soul.

 

[christianley]

Mormon scholars as scholars everywhere stand in opposition with each other at times. However, the bible is an ispired text but it has been passed on through the ages and much has been left out of the canon and as the article demonstrates changed. And it is here that we have the problem. What we have today is a catholic chosen bible. And that is fine. But much was left out during that selection process. However, even luther had a hard time following a catholic inspired bible and wanted to omit James from the canon because of his stance on works, I believe.

The LDS church does not undermine christianity; rather the lds church expounds upon it. And it gives christianity more depth. However, the bible is inspired but it has been mishandled throughout its history. And it is here that we have the problem. Also, catholics need to realize that mistakes were made during the dark ages in regards to religious practice and there was much corruption. This is not the fault of the catholic church but of men and women in the faith. Hence the dark ages. For some at that time and through out its history, power corrupted the soul.

I do not at all accept the premise that mistakes were made in doctrine during the so-called “Dark Ages” which is pretty much an anti-Catholic term to begin with. The Holy Spirit guarded these people from error in choosing the canon and guarded them in doctrine. To believe otherwise is to believe that Jesus abandoned the church he had promised to sheperd until the end of time. Luther was a real case. He wanted to throw out James because he didn’t agree with it. There is a passage in Romans where it says we are saved by faith and Martin Luther added the word “alone” even though it wasn’t in the text and when someone asked him why he said, “Because Dr. Martin Luther will have it so.” He threw out books from the Old Testament because they disagreed with his stance on praying for the souls of the dead. And this is one of the people that Latter-day Saints continually point to as a brave reformer who stood up to the church. The more I have read the more I am appreciate how much damage the so-called reformers did to the Christian Church. Interestingly, you will not find very many Protestants who would agree with Gee’s article either.

 

[majick275]

Mormon scholars as scholars everywhere stand in opposition with each other at times. However, the bible is an ispired text but it has been passed on through the ages and much has been left out of the canon and as the article demonstrates changed. And it is here that we have the problem. What we have today is a catholic chosen bible. And that is fine. But much was left out during that selection process. However, even luther had a hard time following a catholic inspired bible and wanted to omit James from the canon because of his stance on works, I believe.

The LDS church does not undermine christianity; rather the lds church expounds upon it. And it gives christianity more depth. However, the bible is inspired but it has been mishandled throughout its history. And it is here that we have the problem. Also, catholics need to realize that mistakes were made during the dark ages in regards to religious practice and there was much corruption. This is not the fault of the catholic church but of men and women in the faith. Hence the dark ages. For some at that time and through out its history, power corrupted the soul.

You and FAIR all seem to assume that early christians kept their scriptures in a single “book” and later “apostates” removed the parts they didn’t like. That simply isn’t true. only the OT was in a single compendium and because it came from sets of scrolls there was even debate amongst the jewish community on which scrolls to put into “the torah”. many of the NT scriptures are literally letters written by church leaders to individual people and churches. You can imagine the difficulty in keeping track of who had what writings and determining what was specific to those individuals and what was beneficial to the church as a whole. But God had a church and with the Holy Spirit guiding the way the church went through the lengthy but necessary process of collecting up all of the relevant texts and creating a book of scripture…The Bible. since that time the only removals are the protestants (including mormons in this case) taking out 1&2 Maccabees and a few other writings they call"the apocrypha". I find it interesting that Joseph Smith in his “inspired” translation of the Bible with the supposed ability to reveal scripture did not give us a different biblical canon. he merely adjusted a few passages to support his doctrinal positions…exactly what FAIR accuses the Catholics of doing. If the LDS can bring forth scripture (BoM, D&C and PoGP) and the biblical canon is meaningfully wrong, then why are they using the KJV? either the Bible is form an LDS perspective meaningless OR it isn’t really wrong.

I claim further that if the biblical canon being debated as it went from actual correspondence to a collection of letters to a “Bible” is all FAIR has to support a global “apostasy” then they don’t understand what that means.

Where is the evidence that DOCTRINES and PRACTICES changed?

More importantly where is the evidence that MORMON doctrines and practices were in effect in the first or second century?

 

[Allweather]

Also, catholics need to realize that mistakes were made during the dark ages in regards to religious practice and there was much corruption. This is not the fault of the catholic church but of men and women in the faith. Hence the dark ages. For some at that time and through out its history, power corrupted the soul.

You appear to be saying that the so-called Dark Ages were the result of corruption in the Catholic Church.

Not so. The Dark Ages, which is a misnomer not often used by historians anymore, was brought on by the collapse of the Roman Empire, the legal system, the infrastructure, educational system, etc. This collapse was the result of many factors, not least of which was the overwhelming of the Empire by alien peoples. The Catholic Church had nothing to do with this. In fact, the Catholic Church worked to convert the aliens to Christianity, which it did. It also brought them into a civilized state, away from their wandering and pillaging ways.

The Church, through its leadership, eventually rebuilt Rome and assumed the operation of the infrastructure, because there was no one else to do it. This of course led to an unfortunate occupation of the Church with temporal affairs.

The Church faithfully preserved its Tradition and Scripture during this period. Nothing was lost.

 

[majick275]

an interesting read on this subject is “how the Irish saved civilization” by Thomas Cahill:

amazon.com/How-Irish-Saved-Civilization-Irelands/dp/0553478095

It gives goes into detail on some of the significant activities that preserved important writings of both religious and secular nature during the “dark ages”. and how that learning was then distributed back out when things started to settle down in what had been the “roman” empire of the west.

 

[zerinus]

Here is an article dealing with the apostacy that has more meat to it. It deals with the second century. We need to remember that we are dealing with a catholic bible since the passages that were cannonized came from the catholic church, as I understand it.

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/1999_Corruption_of_Scripture_in_the_Second_Century.html

That is a good article which you have found; but there is even stronger internal evidence from within the Bible that the text of the NT as we have it today is only an abridgement of larger works the originals of which have since perished. I have already discussed that subject in the following post, and the discussions that ensued:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1765490&postcount=77

zerinus

 

[GrammasRose]

Mormon scholars as scholars everywhere stand in opposition with each other at times. However, the bible is an ispired text but it has been passed on through the ages and much has been left out of the canon and as the article demonstrates changed. And it is here that we have the problem. What we have today is a catholic chosen bible. And that is fine. But much was left out during that selection process. However, even luther had a hard time following a catholic inspired bible and wanted to omit James from the canon because of his stance on works, I believe.

The LDS church does not undermine christianity; rather the lds church expounds upon it. And it gives christianity more depth. However, the bible is inspired but it has been mishandled throughout its history. And it is here that we have the problem. Also, catholics need to realize that mistakes were made during the dark ages in regards to religious practice and there was much corruption. This is not the fault of the catholic church but of men and women in the faith. Hence the dark ages. For some at that time and through out its history, power corrupted the soul.

I find your statement about the LDS church giving depth quite false. Catholicism has far more depth to it then the LDS church will ever have. You are a mormon who is true blue and pretending to care about Catholicism so what are you up to really ?

 

[GrammasRose]

an interesting read on this subject is “how the Irish saved civilization” by Thomas Cahill:

amazon.com/How-Irish-Saved-Civilization-Irelands/dp/0553478095

It gives goes into detail on some of the significant activities that preserved important writings of both religious and secular nature during the “dark ages”. and how that learning was then distributed back out when things started to settle down in what had been the “roman” empire of the west.

Looks interesting I will see if my library has it thanks

 

[why_me]

I find your statement about the LDS church giving depth quite false. Catholicism has far more depth to it then the LDS church will ever have. You are a mormon who is true blue and pretending to care about Catholicism so what are you up to really ?

I am far from being a true blue mormon but I do not like the lds church to be abused as it has been on this forum. On the Mormon Apologetic forum we are very tolerant of other religions and we also have catholic posters who get the utmost of respect. In fact, at the moment we had a thread about the rosary in which I made some comments that were very positive. I even posted a link that explained how to say the rosary quite well. You can find the thread here:

mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=23095

Notice the difference in tone between that board and this board.

It is the abuse that I have read on this forum that gets my goat.

 

[GrammasRose]

I am far from being a true blue mormon but I do not like the lds church to be abused as it has been on this forum. On the Mormon Apologetic forum we are very tolerant of other religions and we also have catholic posters who get the utmost of respect. In fact, at the moment we had a thread about the rosary in which I made some comments that were very positive. I even posted a link that explained how to say the rosary quite well. You can find the thread here:

mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=23095

Notice the difference in tone between that board and this board.

It is the abuse that I have read on this forum that gets my goat.

You are going against forum rules posting that I hope you know. I really don’t care about the other forum. I am in this one and so are you. No one here has been doing anything but telling the truth about mormonism. And all forums have folks who can be a bit over the top even your mormon forum. I don’t believe for one minute it is so respectful I know better I have been in many including that one before. So please enough about this other forum already.

 

[why_me]

You are going against forum rules posting that I hope you know. I really don’t care about the other forum. I am in this one and so are you. No one here has been doing anything but telling the truth about mormonism. And all forums have folks who can be a bit over the top even your mormon forum. I don’t believe for one minute it is so respectful I know better I have been in many including that one before. So please enough about this other forum already.

On that thread, all were respectful about the rosary. What rule would that break? Even catholics posted on that thread, and these catholic posters are regulars on the forum. When the mods on this forum read that thread, they will see respect and friendship with the catholic church and with the catholic posters. Nothing more but respectful posts about the rosary and its meaning. And that makes all the difference.