Let Mormons be Mormon and Catholics be Catholics

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zerinus said:
You can sugar coat it with that article if your like; but saying the Rosary essentially amounts to “vain repetition”.

zerinus
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Here is another phrase that gets interpreted wrongly by non-Catholics.

“Vain repetition” simply means rambling words on and on and on with no real value, just so God hears you, and thinks you are being a good person for praying to Him.

“Vain” means “having no real value”, but the Rosary has lots of value, as it allows us to reflect on Christ through the mysteries of our faith.

“Vain” also means “showing excessive pride”, which is not what we do when we pray the Rosary.
It is humbly done, sometimes in the quietness of our rooms, or a pleasant Sunday drive. It is not shouted out down the street so everyone knows what we are doing.

“Vain” also can mean “to have no result” as “in vain”.
The Rosary has shown over the centuries to have plenty of results, the most important one being it allows us to focus on Christ in a contemplative. meditative manner.

It is not vain repetition but a formal prayer. Catholics also pray informally too. We can chat away to Jesus the same way we chat away to our family.

In life there is always a need for formality and informality. The Rosary simply fills the former.
 
zerinus said:
That is a ridiculous and stupid thing to say. We don’t show any contempt or disregard for Mary. We revere her as the Mother of Jesus, the Son of God. But we do not worship nor pray to Mary. I don’t believe she would have ever wanted us to do that. That is called idolatry, not devotion.

zerinus
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zerinus,

You have been around these boards to know very well we don’t worship Mary.
 
Allweather said:
This person reveals by his own words that he doesn’t really meditate upon Jesus and Mary. He gives lip service to it, but that isn’t the same as doing it. This is typical Protestant rhetoric.

Elsewhere this person wrote: “I don’t believe she would have ever wanted us to do that. That is called idolatry, not devotion.”

This is another sign of Protestant creative thinking. “He doesn’t believe.” His idea is better than God’s.
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That is often the LDS stance that they are better, because they feel all other faiths are an abomination.
 
zerinus said:
That is a ridiculous and stupid thing to say. zerinus
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Maybe when this youngster has written something that has stood the test of the centuries, then he will be qualified to pronounce other such works to be “ridiculous and stupid.” Meantime, he would do well to be more humble and quiet, and see what he could learn from his betters.
 
colliric said:
Vain repitition is saying the prayer for the sake of only saying the prayer to make youself fell better rather than to connect with God. Sorry Zerinus, but fortunatly the properly done rosary meditation is NOT “vain repetition”, it is a meditation which allows us to recall and reflect upon the many mysteries of the bible and the wonderfullness of our God and to pray to god the father, Mary, God the father again, Jesus directly, 5 to 15 times over, followed by once again another prayer to Mary, and a final closing prayer to God in the holy trinity.

if we pray these prayers for the sake of felling better, that is vain repetition. However if we pray these prayers and reflect and have faith in why we pray them, why we must pray for what they ask for and the particular event we are called to pray this decade for, that is far from being “in vain repetition” in fact it’s the same thing as when you guys just pray “the our father” repeatedly, you are doing the same thing.
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just to clarify, mormons don’t pray the our father.
 
zerinus said:
You can sugar coat it with that article if your like; but saying the Rosary essentially amounts to “vain repetition”.

zerinus
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That offends me. :tsktsk:

You’re starting to cross the line with your comments! I didn’t try to sugar coat it. I was stating why I thought I had an obligation to rectify a wrong. Please read the posts with a little more empathy instead of…this isn’t even important…
 
majick275 said:
just to clarify, mormons don’t pray the our father.
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Funny, I heard it spoken at a ward in Anchorage, while attending a friend’s matrimony.

I’ve known several Mormons who say it, and it is from scripture.

What I’ve never heard is the doxology from an LDS member.
 
well, Mormons don’t “object” to it. it just isn’t part of their “liturgy”.

Most are taught it in bible study classes in sunday school and seminary but only as part of the gospels not as an “act” that one should go and “do”.

When the topic of prayer is taught the lord’s prayer is used as a model to be emulated in structure rather than a set prayer to be repeated verbatim. they interpret the scriptures on this as a guide for form.

Mormons teach that prayer should be structured as 1) Heavenly Father (address the father ONLY) 2) we thank thee… (first give thanks to God as the situation dictates) 3) we ask thee… (make your petitions) 4)always close “in the name of Jesus Christ Amen”
They prefer thee, thou, thy, etc. as “prayer language” as a sign of respect and reverence to God.

They do have set prayers for baptism and “communion” (which they call sacrament) that are slightly different in structure and must be said word for word exact. All of the temple ordinances are also set prayers that must be said exactly the same. One interesting difference in the Temple would be “the true order of prayer” which (aside from the unique attire and ritual signs) is somewhat similar to the prayers of the faithful at mass. it starts with a set portion and ends with free form petitions from the “leader” of the prayer.

some preisthood ordinances such as the blessing of infants, confirmation, blessing of the sick and patriarchal blessings have set wording in parts that must be included but are mostly freeform and also would not follow the “standard structure”
 
as to the doxology, while i have never heard that in any LDS setting it IS in the intro section of the BoM.

the last line in the testimony of the three witnesses to the BoM is:

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
 
colliric said:
Vain repitition is saying the prayer for the sake of only saying the prayer to make youself fell better rather than to connect with God. Sorry Zerinus, but fortunatly the properly done rosary meditation is NOT “vain repetition”, it is a meditation which allows us to recall and reflect upon the many mysteries of the bible and the wonderfullness of our God and to pray to god the father, Mary, God the father again, Jesus directly, 5 to 15 times over, followed by once again another prayer to Mary, and a final closing prayer to God in the holy trinity.

if we pray these prayers for the sake of felling better, that is vain repetition. However if we pray these prayers and reflect and have faith in why we pray them, why we must pray for what they ask for and the particular event we are called to pray this decade for, that is far from being “in vain repetition” in fact it’s the same thing as when you guys just pray “the our father” repeatedly, you are doing the same thing.
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“Vain” repetition means “useless,” “pointless,” “foolish,” “unnecessary,” “futile” repetition. The actual context itself makes clear the meaning. It says: “for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” In other words, their error consisted in their thinking that the more often they said it, the greater was the chance of their prayer being heard. That is vain repetition. Well, the Rosary is a form of prayer, and it consists of repeatedly saying the same thing over and over, therefore it is “vain repetition”. God isn’t hard of hearing! You only need to say it once, and He hears!

zerinus
 
kellie said:
zerinus,

You have been around these boards to know very well we don’t worship Mary.
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You pray to her, don’t you? Prayer is an act of worship. You pray to God. You don’t pray to Mary or the Saints.

zerinus
 
GrammasRose said:
Everything done in LDS Temples are repititious in nature.
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What is done in the Temples are sacramental in nature. Sacraments usually require a set formula. That is not “vain repetition”. The baptismal formula is a sacrament—it always stays the same. And we only say it once when we baptize someone. We don’t repeat the formula a hundred times, thinking that the more often we say it, the better it gets! If we did that, that would be vain repetition. You only need to say the baptismal formula once when you baptize someone. It won’t make his baptism any better if you said it twice! So that is not vain repetition.

zerinus
 
Allweather said:
Maybe when this youngster has written something that has stood the test of the centuries, then he will be qualified to pronounce other such works to be “ridiculous and stupid.” Meantime, he would do well to be more humble and quiet, and see what he could learn from his betters.
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What a load of rubbish you post!

zerinus
 
scapularkid8 said:
That offends me. :tsktsk:

You’re starting to cross the line with your comments! I didn’t try to sugar coat it. I was stating why I thought I had an obligation to rectify a wrong. Please read the posts with a little more empathy instead of…this isn’t even important…
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I did read it. I has simply got the wrong end of the stick with regard to the meaning of “vain repetition”.

zerinus
 
I see no wrong in praying to the Virgin Mary for prayerful intercessation. Nor do I see nothing wrong in praying to saints for help or guidance. We need all the help we can get in today’s world.
 
majick275 said:
just to clarify, mormons don’t pray the our father.
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The Our Father is looked upon as an example on how to pray. Thus, Mormons pray to Heavenly Father and end every prayer in the son’s name. The Our Father is looked upon as a learning prayer or as a model in how to pray to heavenly father.
 
why_me said:
I see no wrong in praying to the Virgin Mary for prayerful intercessation. Nor do I see nothing wrong in praying to saints for help or guidance.
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I don’t think the Mormon church would agree with you, and I don’t know any Mormons who would accept this.

Catholics are often criticized by non-Catholics for praying for intercession from the Saints, yet non-Catholics have no problem asking their friends or relatives to pray for them. It’s exactly the same thing with the Saints, except they’re already in heaven. We don’t worship the Saints, but we do ask for their prayers just as we would from a friend or relative. We also see in the Book of Revelation the Saints in heaven accepting the prayers of those on earth.

As far as Mary goes, her heavenly mission is to bring others to her Son. All genuine Marian devotion has this end as its purpose. She is also the Queen of Christ’s kingdom, just as the mother of each Davidic king was the queen in the Old Testament, rather than the wife of the king. The queen mother had a very special role in the kingdom as an intercessor for the people. Though the queen was subject to her son, the king, he had to listen to her because she was still his mother. Mary perfectly fulfills this same role in heaven.
 
zerinus said:
What is done in the Temples are sacramental in nature. Sacraments usually require a set formula. That is not “vain repetition”. The baptismal formula is a sacrament—it always stays the same. And we only say it once when we baptize someone. We don’t repeat the formula a hundred times, thinking that the more often we say it, the better it gets! If we did that, that would be vain repetition. You only need to say the baptismal formula once when you baptize someone. It won’t make his baptism any better if you said it twice! So that is not vain repetition.

zerinus
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whatever you want to call it it is still vain repitition and it is worse because you claim it as an ordinance. I wasn’t speaking of baptismal prayer either and you know it. . everything done in the temple is vain repetition. Washing and anointing is vain repetition, so is the endowment. What amazes me is how so many LDS can’t admit to the truth of the matter.
 
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