Let Mormons be Mormon and Catholics be Catholics

[GrammasRose]

I seriously doubt you’ve read them. But, in case you have, could you be more specific about what, precisely, you “disagree” with? And why?

(here’s where the Mormon disappears for awhile)

I don’t believe he has an interest in reading them.

 

[GrammasRose]

You are right, I hadn’t!

Why should I? You didn’t write them. I am debating with you, not with the articles. If you have read them, and are convinced that they contain any valid arguments against what LDS believe, pick out the best one you can find, and bring it here, and we will talk about it. But you have shown repeatedly that you are incapable of doing that. You don’t think for yourself. You let the article do your thinking for you. If I were to read the article and criticise it, all you are going to do is to tell me that you accept what is in the article rather than what is said by me, and probably refer me to more articles. What is the point of doing that? That is no way to debate.

zerinus

You are the last person who should be giving advice on how to debate. All you do is take pot shots.

 

[Allweather]

You are right, I hadn’t!

I knew that. Mormons don’t read non-Mormon stuff 'cause they’re afraid of it.

Why should I? You didn’t write them. I am debating with you, not with the articles. If you have read them, and are convinced that they contain any valid arguments against what LDS believe, pick out the best one you can find, and bring it here, and we will talk about it. But you have shown repeatedly that you are incapable of doing that. You don’t think for yourself. You let the article do your thinking for you. If I were to read the article and criticise it, all you are going to do is to tell me that you accept what is in the article rather than what is said by me, and probably refer me to more articles. What is the point of doing that? That is no way to debate.

zerinus

Does the little Mormon think original thoughts? Or does it repeat what it hears and reads from its programmers? Give us an example of a single original Zerinus theological idea. Or any original thought, theological or otherwise, for that matter. Just one.

 

[Allweather]

I don’t believe he has an interest in reading them.

This one is a GIGO machine, but not fully burned-in. Still on the assy line.

It is humorous that a Mormon comes here to a Catholic board, albeit one that entertains opinions about non-Catholic religions, attacks the veneration of the Mother of God as “vain” and then, when it is suggested in the form of a general statement ie not directed to anyone in particular, that a set of articles on this same Catholic site contains information that might be illuminating, declares, even without reading any of the articles, that he “disagrees with them.”

Ah, the impertinence of youth.

 

[zerinus]

I knew that. Mormons don’t read non-Mormon stuff 'cause they’re afraid of it.

Does the little Mormon think original thoughts? Or does it repeat what it hears and reads from its programmers? Give us an example of a single original Zerinus theological idea. Or any original thought, theological or otherwise, for that matter. Just one.

You had pointed me to a web page on which there were links to 26 articles. Which one did you want me to read? Which one of them did you read? I doubt if any. It is obvious that you are just pointing me to articles aimlessly without putting any intellectual capital into it yourself–probably because you haven’t got any. If you thought I was going to read 26 articles every time I wanted to debate something with you, you have another thing coming.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

The Bible tells us that we only have one intercessor in heaven, and that is Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 2:

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Romans 8:

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 7:

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

That is the only intercession that is required. The Book of Mormon also confirms this teaching:

2 Nephi 2:

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

Mosiah 14:

[Quoting from Isaiah]
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Mosiah 15:

8 And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men

Jesus is in fact the only one that is qualified, by virtue of His atoning sacrifice, to be our intercessor in heaven. To appeal to Mary or the Saints for intercession borders on the sacrilege. It is like losing faith in Jesus Christ, and in the sufficiency of His atonement and intercession.

Prayer is not the same as asking your friends here on earth to help you. Your friends are people you can see, and whom you can talk to and know that they can hear. Prayer is an act of faith. It is an appeal to a supernatural being whom you do not see, but whom you believe in faith is able to hear and answer. I don’t know of any instance in the scriptures where one is supposed to appeal to any other being in heaven than the supreme, omnipotent God for assistance. Jesus talked a lot about prayer in the Gospels; but the object of His prayers was always the one God, not anything else. It is contrary to the whole order of things that God has established in the Bible, both the OT as well as the NT.

zerinus

here again amgid/zerinus strays from true LDS teachings. mormons believe firmly in asking others to pray on behalf of people. (which is all that happens with Catholic saints) The scriptures are clear on this. We ask for others to pray for us living OR dead and it helps. Mormons submit names to their temples to have people prayed for. they collect up a bag of names and pray over the bag that God will bless those people. Mormons ask people to pray for them all the time. So do Catholics. The difference? WE think God still hears peoples prayers after they are dead.

 

[kellie]

There is a good collection of articles here at Catholic Answers for anyone interested in the Catholic, which is to say, Christian, view of Mary and the saints, and some of the issues raised by the Mormon.

catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

Thank you Allweather, that explains it way better than what I have been trying to do.

Thank you CA, I sometimes forget about the vast array of articles you have on these topics.

zerinus, please read this link, it will explain our beliefs about intercession and praying to the saints better than I ever can.

God bless

 

[Allweather]

You had pointed me to a web page on which there were links to 26 articles. Which one did you want me to read? Which one of them did you read? I doubt if any. It is obvious that you are just pointing me to articles aimlessly without putting any intellectual capital into it yourself–probably because you haven’t got any. If you thought I was going to read 26 articles every time I wanted to debate something with you, you have another thing coming.

zerinus

It’s always all about you, isn’t it Zerinus? Here’s the post in which I invited reference to the Catholic Answers articles on Mary and the Saints, after you spent the morning vicously attacking Catholic Marian piety:

**""There is a good collection of articles here at Catholic Answers for anyone interested in the Catholic, which is to say, Christian, view of Mary and the saints, and some of the issues raised by the Mormon.

http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp""**

Do you see YOUR name in there anywhere? I never pointed YOU in particular to anything. I knew you wouldn’t read anything non-Mormon. I was pointing to these articles for others, mainly lurkers, who might have just recently tuned in and read some of your unsavory statements about Catholic love for Mary and the saints that God has elevated into His presence. Yet, YOU barged right in there, assuming that I was aiming at YOU in particular. YOU were included only in the same sense that everyone else was.

Like I said: Youthful impertinence. I hope you’re actually a teenager. Because, if you’re a full-grown adult, brother, you’ve got a serious case of self love.

Now, if you’re really interested in learning about the Biblical and Traditional development of these theologies, then you’ll sit down and read thru these articles. And, yes, I am familiar with them. You say you like to debate theology, “because it is fun” I think I remember you saying. Well, then, give it a go. If you really enjoy it, then it should be a labor of fun for you.