Let's be real about the shortage of priests

[dochawk]

If I had known about the Eastern Catholic church when I was 18, maybe I’d have considered this! Hard to look back and say for sure though, who can predict what an 18 year old would think?

Generally, a change of rite from RC to eastern carries a permanent bar against presbyteral ordination; you can’t transfer to seek orders.

However, the Melkites first trained their married men for ordination out of the country, and eventually began ordaining before Rome approved, and pretty much challenged Rome to say anything about it (it didn’t). So maybe . . .

hawk

 

[phil19034]

The Orthodox have no issue. Look celibacy wasn’t even a requirement until the 13th century. And it wasn’t enforced until after the Council of Trent. 53 of our Popes were married men. It’s a discipline not a doctrine. It can be changed and honestly when college polls have shown 4 times as many young men would consider being priests if not for the celibacy discipline, you’d have more than enough to do this.
The only reason it seems unfathomable now is because most parishes only have one priest many times yoked with another parish.

The Orthodox typically have smaller parishes compared to Roman Rite Catholics. The Orthodox Parishes also have grown up with married priests, so they are used to them with their tithes, etc.

For the Roman Rite to all of sudden have married priests would be a huge shock both culturally and logistically for a long time.

From Seminaries to Rectories and from medical benefits to priestly salary; everything would be thrown into upheaval. And frankly, it would not be a upheaval that would be better for the Church.

Personally, I think a good compromise would be to allow retired** Permanent Deacons without young kids to become part-time, volunteer priests (just like how they are now part-time, volunteer deacons).

**What I mean by retired is Deacons who already have their retirement benefits from their secular careers. These part time priests, could serve as weekend assistants for Sunday Mass, and help with daily Mass, Confession, wedding masses, baptisms, funeral masses, as their schedules permit. They don’t necessarily have to have already retired from their day job. But ideally, these Deacons would be the ones who have the time to be very involved with their parish(es).

 

[phil19034]

I would very much like to do an aspirancy after I am confirmed.

But honestly, I’ll probably have at least 10 years paying off student loan debt after college. I’m going to be paying at least $15,000 a year and I’m going in with nothing. No money of my own, no help from parents. And women can’t become nuns if they have debt.

You could join a convent first and then go to college once a nun.

However, there is also the Laboure Society https://labouresociety.org/, which helps aspiring nuns and priests to pay off student debt so they can be accepted.

 

[anikins]

Current statistics last I checked (when a similar conversation to this was had last year) is that about half of priests are chaste.

Most are having consensual sex with other adults, or at the very least, masturbating.

There are priests in my diocese as well who, unfortunately, I actually know are not chaste. A decade ago my uncle (in a different diocese) confronted a priest who he knew was sleeping with a fellow highschool teacher. His response wasn’t denial, but “she makes me a better priest”. My uncle never bothered him after that.

At the end of the day we can only be responsible for our own souls I guess.

 

[angelic06]

Just a little note:

Theologically, there is no such thing as a “part time priest”. In the Latin Church understanding, he is imprinted with an “indelible mark”.

I suppose you mean he serves in ministry part time.

 

[BlackFriar]

Its not “heretical” but neither is it reasonably considered true. Jesus did not marry, therefore he obeyed the law of Moses re sex.

Sex is only sinful when it is disordered.

 

[BlackFriar]

Would you mind referencing these statistics?
I think the chastity figure is somewhat low - but perhaps you are talking USA?

 

[phil19034]

Just a little note:

Theologically, there is no such thing as a “part time priest”. In the Latin Church understanding, he is imprinted with an “indelible mark”.

I suppose you mean he serves in ministry part time.

Yes, that’s exactly what I meant.

 

[anikins]

I don’t have a scanner at home at moment so I can’t make a copy of my handouts but that statistic comes from the International Conference on Celibacy in Rome. I suggest checking out research online done by former monk/priest, Richard Sipe, on sex abuse and celibacy. Lots of good data there and yes, you are right, most references are from the USA!

The most interesting thing that is happening today is that bishops are turning a blind eye to rumors of priests having sex (with adults). In cases where they are found out, there is almost always a record of reports to their superiors prior to exposure.

 

[Mtatum1958]

Thank you for the source. In your opinion, is this a continuation of the issue throughout history, or episodic?

 

[anikins]

In your opinion, is this a continuation of the issue throughout history, or episodic?

I have no idea. I’m so sorry.

I’m very interested in celibacy but I have not personally looked at any recorded data before the 60’s. The easiest data to access online is the clergy sex abuse cases from the last 50 years. However, websites like bishopaccountability.org don’t always track consensual sex.

 

[Mtatum1958]

Thank you. I was just doing some research on a tangential related subject.

 

[Anicette]

I completely disagree.

In the French exemple:

Our grandparents’s generation in the 1950, in French, were in a majority Christians, or at least knows Christians people or Christians institutions. The Baby Boomers generation is the generation who is the most catechized, but finally distance themselves from the Church.

The youngs Christian adults today are the a small minority. Christianity is completely unkown, and hidden.There is few religious marriage (and civil marriage too), few baptism and very few children who follow catechism.

Catechism it’s just one hour for two weeks in unlikely hours…

I have worked in a catholic school. There are few Catholic children, and the ignorence in religious subject is high. It’s worst than for my generation.

 

[Anicette]

The decrease in priesthood rate is in all western contries, but less marked in Traditional Catholicism.

I think the main cause is :
-the decrease in Catholicism in all aspect of people life and religious attendance. mass not seen as a obligation.
-the decrease in eschatological tension, prayer, faith

• to live evangical values by social action, labors unions since the 1950’s but forget others aspects of Christianity
  …
  when there is fewer Catholics there is fewer priests.

And secondary causes:
-end of traditional fruitfull Catholics families

when there is fewer children in a family, there is fewer vocations.
When I look the seminarians I Know, the majority come from large families. And this sort of families disapered.

And of course, the lack of valorisation of priesthood in our society, the fear of lifetime engagement, the gap between youngs seminarians and older parishioners which could discourage some men, celibabcy etc.

1 in 2 seminarians left before ordination in France.

 

[Anicette]

good statistics.

Whixh they come from?

 

[Jas31784]

When you think about it critically like not in a religious way but just scholarly… Jesus was a walking contradiction. Okay he followed the law of Moses for that. Did he care about the Sabbath law? No. Did he care about the divorce law? No. It’s almost like some laws of Moses were legit but others were not. It’s always confused me.

 

[BlackFriar]

As far as I know Moses rulings re divorce do not contradict the Commandments - which are incomparably greater…for they came from God. Divorce only came from Moses himself.

Jesus kept holy the Sabbath day (also a Commandment) so I am not sure what you are suggesting above? Do you mean the lesser laws Moses himself attached to the Sabbath?

 

[ineedofmercy]

I’ve noticed this and it makes me very worried and sad that Catholic priests are disappearing

I don’t know what my vocation is. I want to help the problem but also don’t feel like priest material atm

Plus I’m torn between love and priesthood like most people are

I may end up with neither and have to go single

 

[Jas31784]

Such as when his disciples were eating on the Sabbath and he defended them to the Pharisees citing David going into the Holy of the Holies with his men and consuming bread.
Or healing on the Sabbath.
That was against the Law was it not?

 

[BlackFriar]

As I attempted to distinguish above it may have been against the many little rules of Moses, but it isn’t against the Commandments.

Christians do not follow the details of derived Mosaic Law, but we do follow the Commandments which are directly of God.

The content of the instructions and its interpretations, the Oral Torah, was passed down orally, excerpted and codified in Rabbinical Judaism, and in the Talmud were numbered as the 613 commandments. The Law given to Moses at Sinai (Hebrew Halakhah le-Moshe mi-Sinai הלכה למשה מסיני) is a halakhic distinction.

See Wikipedia