Let's get radical about Not Judging

[AlanFromWichita]

The Lord has been so kind to me. I was blind and now I see.

One thing that has helped my own spiritual progress is to learn how to not judge at all – at least the best I can.

We are so trained from the time we are just starting to learn the language, to judge. We label things, and that’s a form of judgment. We are never taught to separate out “good” judgment from “bad” judgment; it all kind of mixes together into one big lukewarm blob.

To me, judgment can be extremely subtle. For example, when one person called Jesus “Good Teacher” He wouldn’t even accept the label “good.” Why was Jesus annoyed? Because He was judged, perhaps?

Here’s another example: I play piano and organ for church, and once I played at a wedding and performed poorly. I felt bad, but afterwards some people told me that I played well. What they meant was they enjoyed the music, because they didn’t know enough about music so they just didn’t realize it. I did not feel better when they told me that; it took me a while to sort it out. The moral of the story? When I tell an “expert” what I think, I must not judge. So I might tell a cook, “I loved the cake” but never “that is a good cake” because that presumes I’m in a position to judge the cook as worthy. When I meet a famous performer, same thing. I’ll say, “I love your performance, especially that last song,” and never, “you played really well.”

I’m splitting hairs, but I think such hairs need to be split because I think the main reason people are offended when they are judged, is not because the judgment is right or wrong, but because the other person presumes to be in a position to judge. That is, the person judging is playing God over us.

So in this thread, I’m interested in hearing about all sorts of subtle ways that we can judge, and ways to avoid same. How many ways can we find to drive judgment out of our lives – all the way to the roots?

Alan

 

[Sirach2]

St. Francis de Sales gave a solid teaching on judging.

If your affections are warm and tender, your judgment will not be harsh; if they are loving, your judgment will be the same. Holy Scripture offers us three striking illustrations. Isaac, when in the Land of Gerar, gave out that Rebecca was his sister, but when Abimelech saw their familiarity, he at once concluded that she was his wife. A malicious mind would rather have supposed that there was some unlawful connection between them, but Abimelech took the most charitable view of the case that was possible. And so ought we always to judge our neighbour as charitably as may be; and if his actions are many-sided, we should accept the best.

Again, when S. Joseph found that the Blessed Virgin was with child, knowing her to be pure and holy, he could not believe that there was any sin in her, and he left all judgment to God, although there was strong presumptive evidence on which to condemn her. And the Holy Spirit speaks of St. Joseph as “a just man.” When a just man cannot see any excuse for what is done by a person in whose general worth he believes, he still refrains from judging him, and leaves all to God’s Judgment.

This is what I have read from other saints, too, that our thoughts must always seek the most charitable interpretation possible of others’ deeds/words.

 

[cmscms]

I have a bit of a different twist to this post. I totally agree one should not judge. But I am a firm opinion that one must evaluate.

For example. There is this lady at work. She told me that when one of her kids rips a page out of the other one’s colouring book, she does not want to hear about it because that is tattling and she has no time for that. Although I disagree with her parenting skills, I do not judge since I repect her right to set the rules in her house.

However, I would NEVER want her to be my boss. If someone messes up my work, I will have to take the heat for it being wrong because she doesn’t want to hear it. I think I am smart to make that evaluation

CM

 

[PatriceA]

The Lord has been so kind to me. I was blind and now I see.

One thing that has helped my own spiritual progress is to learn how to not judge at all – at least the best I can.

We are so trained from the time we are just starting to learn the language, to judge. We label things, and that’s a form of judgment. We are never taught to separate out “good” judgment from “bad” judgment; it all kind of mixes together into one big lukewarm blob.

To me, judgment can be extremely subtle. For example, when one person called Jesus “Good Teacher” He wouldn’t even accept the label “good.” Why was Jesus annoyed? Because He was judged, perhaps?

Here’s another example: I play piano and organ for church, and once I played at a wedding and performed poorly. I felt bad, but afterwards some people told me that I played well. What they meant was they enjoyed the music, because they didn’t know enough about music so they just didn’t realize it. I did not feel better when they told me that; it took me a while to sort it out. The moral of the story? When I tell an “expert” what I think, I must not judge. So I might tell a cook, “I loved the cake” but never “that is a good cake” because that presumes I’m in a position to judge the cook as worthy. When I meet a famous performer, same thing. I’ll say, “I love your performance, especially that last song,” and never, “you played really well.”

I’m splitting hairs, but I think such hairs need to be split because I think the main reason people are offended when they are judged, is not because the judgment is right or wrong, but because the other person presumes to be in a position to judge. That is, the person judging is playing God over us.

So in this thread, I’m interested in hearing about all sorts of subtle ways that we can judge, and ways to avoid same. How many ways can we find to drive judgment out of our lives – all the way to the roots?

Alan

I have an example. My dd is on the local swim team, and we are all suppose to do our share in running the concession stand, doing fundraising, etc. There is one particular mother, very fit looking, apparently healthy looking, that never seemed to do as much as the rest of us. She took many breaks, sat down a lot in the chairs, just didn’t seem to be making an effort like the rest of us. I was a little put out. She recently revealed she’s in the early stages of MS, and there were times it took all she had just to get up in the morning but she wanted to be at as many of her kids activities while she was still able. I judged her because she appeared to be the picture of perfect health and she was anything but.

 

[cmscms]

I have an example. My dd is on the local swim team, and we are all suppose to do our share in running the concession stand, doing fundraising, etc. There is one particular mother, very fit looking, apparently healthy looking, that never seemed to do as much as the rest of us. She took many breaks, sat down a lot in the chairs, just didn’t seem to be making an effort like the rest of us. I was a little put out. She recently revealed she’s in the early stages of MS, and there were times it took all she had just to get up in the morning but she wanted to be at as many of her kids activities while she was still able. I judged her because she appeared to be the picture of perfect health and she was anything but.

Wow, that really is a good lesson in don’t judge a book by its cover.

However, I still hold to my point that it is OK to evaluate. For example, if a volunteer was needed for a physical task would it not be wise to not ask her. After all, it would be unfair to her

CM

 

[Trishie]

“Question your friend, he may have done nothing at all, and if he has done something he will not do it again. Question your neighbour, he may have said nothing at all, and if he has, he will not say it again.
Question your friend, for slander is very common, do not believe all you hear. A man sometimes makes a slip, without meaning what he says; and which of us has never sinned by speech?” [Ecclesiasticus 1913-17]

Judgement of others
Jesus, please alert us when we are tempted to judge other people. Our judgements may be based on another’s opinion, on flimsy evidence or on past observations, without full knowledge of someone’s situation and nature. Even if others appear to blatantly sin, we cannot judge them according to Your vision. Please give us grace to extend impartiality and compassion to all others, friend, foe or stranger.

We cannot know others’ motivations or all the influences affecting them, so we have doubtless misjudged others more frequently than we realise. Give us grace to avoid unkind or scandalous gossip.

Enlighten those who see a few incidents or an isolated occurrence or appearance, even from years past, and then presume to make a permanent judgement like “he always does this.” “She always is like that.” “He is that sort of person.” How unjust to judge others in this way! Even if former perceptions happen to be accurate, who can judge that any person has not advanced in wisdom or grace!

If we defend victims of misjudgement, some accusers reconsider their opinion, while others cling to prejudice. Some people believe that their subjective view of people, reality, and events is the only valid one; therefore, we cannot expect them to be open to contrary evidence or testimony. They honestly believe that their judgements are correct. They seem not to be fully responsible for the injustice of their viewpoints.

We cannot judge even these people for perhaps they suffer from personal insecurity or desire for ascendancy over others, due to immaturity or low self-esteem. Their lack of respect and compassion may be hurtful to someone we love or respect, but let us respond with Christian maturity, without besmirching their reputations. Please expand their mental and emotional maturity so that with just and empathetic understanding of others, they—and we—may make reparation for the reputation and welfare of anyone who has been maligned or misjudged.

We trust in Your love to pardon us and to greatly bless anyone we have sinned against by judgement or unkindness. Jesus, help us truly to love our sisters and brothers, whether or not we understand them. October 1999

Judge you, my brother?
loving God, eternity waits for those who live the gospel to truly share in Your delight in each person. With You, we will rejoice in everyone who accepts Christ’s invitation to follow Him with prayer, penance and generosity!

How profound is the giving required by that person, and this! What happiness, what anguish is known there! What temptation is encountered! What sensitivities enfeeble or enrich and sanctify that life! How great is Your glory in the strange or ordinary facts and struggles of their existence! Yet, how can we know?

We err in applying rules of private interpretation to another’s intention or act, except as feeble measure for our compassion and charity. Only by one’s private consciousness—unless enlightened by Your Spirit of love—can each see what lies in another’s soul.

Each person is a unique expression of Your love, an individual world, some great, and some miniature, separate in existence and consciousness, yet united in You. Yet how quickly do we judge each other! We offer You our hurt and theirs in prayer for healing and forgiveness.

Let us not belittle or betray, in thought, or by gossip—the seemingly sinful, the apparently misled or foolish, or those perceived to be ugly, or crippled in mind or spirit. Let us celebrate their preciousness in You. Let us no longer sin against Your sacred love and creation in anyone by our judgements however seemingly justified.

Let Your Holy Spirit know and love each other person through us, with sensitivity to their emerging needs. Give us compassion for each other, however perplexed or inaccurate our perception, so that we revere each other—and ourselves—as individuals sacred to You.

Through Your Spirit, we can offer appreciation, justice and love to each other as we wait humbly on the full vision of Your meaning, purpose, and love of each person, in the final translation that follows death. Let us serve and intercede for each other person as loved child of God, in glad, trusting welcome.

 

[Trishie]

Understanding

My dear, I love you,
but the reasons matter not.
One cannot argue with the fact of love
which is entirely of the stuff of God.

Yet, my dear, we sometimes seem estranged!
my thought and heart have failed to closely match your own
and we leave each other alien for a while–
even wounded for life–
though both are imaged in love of the same eternal God!

The wonder perhaps is that we meet at all
for each created being is possessed of logic,
of identity unique within itself
which only appears reflected in others’ lives and thoughts
for none can know or judge but by a private consciousness.

Each soul remains hidden within divine Love’s mysteries
manifest in wondrous individual expression.
It is a whole world, formed and blessed,
and burdened with heavy crosses, perhaps?
a world in value, goodness and giving apparently slight?
yet perhaps its’ all–the sum of what God grants it
for His own secret delight!

After death many surprises await,
of treasure buried in simple human hearts
concealed perhaps in ugly shapes, foolish deeds and ordinary lives
and in lives that others might choose to brush aside or to crush
as crippled, useless, unbalanced, peculiar, unwanted, unworthy…

He miniaturises His special created delights sometimes–
persons negligible even to themselves.
And it pleases Him that our least ones He shall exalt
before the vast and great and good.

From Him alone
comes union and mutual understanding of souls, minds and hearts.
True comprehension waits upon
the fullness of eternal communion, begun in Eucharist.
Until then I only know, like you, the truths as I allow Him
to speak them in my limited, biased self.

I cannot know and love you, dear, nor you myself,
unless God grants this gift.
This does not mean that I do not love you.
Just that I love the best that I can.
Forgive me all the rest. And I, you too.

.…just some personal meditations from my journal

 

[jerry_kelso]

Alan, The golden rule says to treat people the way we want to be treated.Sadky, people may not treat us in the way we wish. Now, we love people because Christ loved and loves us and because of the power of God through the death, burial, and resurrection. within us.
Some people have bad manners, and some have strong opinions. I too am a musician and I’ve learned people will think what they want. An opinion or if they don’t know that you did bad iwould not usually qualify as judging.
As far as never jugdging in anything. Is not scriptural. In 2nd timothy the Bible says If we suffer we shall reign. This means we are in rulership training our purpose and destiny in this earth. Paul said in corinthians we shall judge angels. The Bible also says to judge all spiritual things.
When Jesus said; judge not lest ye be judged he was talking to the hypocritical Pharisees. This is when we should not judge.
Jesus said by our love they will know we are his disciples. As far as christians many will offend other christians for many reasons, one of them is that they don’t have the fruits of the spirit which should be our normal character.Other reasons can be wrong doctrine,lack of knowledge. With carnal. folks the gospel is the offense to those who don’t want to believe. This is the bible truth and this truth can judge. God Bless!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Wow! Some really great answers. I’ll start at the beginning …

St. Francis de Sales gave a solid teaching on judging.

This is what I have read from other saints, too, that our thoughts must always seek the most charitable interpretation possible of others’ deeds/words.

That is great. Always believe the best.

However, I would NEVER want her to be my boss. If someone messes up my work, I will have to take the heat for it being wrong because she doesn’t want to hear it. I think I am smart to make that evaluation

I see your point. It seems to me that you can have a preference for one over the other, and it not really be judging. This may require further examination; where is the dividing line between having a preference and judging?

Could it be in the way it is worded? So yes, I can say I would prefer not to have her as a boss. I just can’t say she’d be a bad boss? Hmmmm…

I judged her because she appeared to be the picture of perfect health and she was anything but.

I can sure see that. I knew a woman who looked healthy but had a respiratory problem so she couldn’t walk far, so she had a handicap sticker. She said she gets dirty looks from people.

Thanks again for the great answers. I’ll try to get to the rest of them soon. I’m multitasking.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

They honestly believe that their judgements are correct. They seem not to be fully responsible for the injustice of their viewpoints.

You are so right. I have been guilty of judging people for being judgmental, without hearing them out first.

We err in applying rules of private interpretation to another’s intention or act, except as feeble measure for our compassion and charity. Only by one’s private consciousness—unless enlightened by Your Spirit of love—can each see what lies in another’s soul.

Amen.

Let Your Holy Spirit know and love each other person through us, with sensitivity to their emerging needs. Give us compassion for each other, however perplexed or inaccurate our perception, so that we revere each other—and ourselves—as individuals sacred to You.

Through Your Spirit, we can offer appreciation, justice and love to each other as we wait humbly on the full vision of Your meaning, purpose, and love of each person, in the final translation that follows death. Let us serve and intercede for each other person as loved child of God, in glad, trusting welcome.

Amen.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

When Jesus said; judge not lest ye be judged he was talking to the hypocritical Pharisees. This is when we should not judge.
Jesus said by our love they will know we are his disciples. As far as christians many will offend other christians for many reasons, one of them is that they don’t have the fruits of the spirit which should be our normal character.Other reasons can be wrong doctrine,lack of knowledge. With carnal. folks the gospel is the offense to those who don’t want to believe. This is the bible truth and this truth can judge. God Bless!

I love to talk about the fruit of the Spirit, because against them there is no law. I can enjoy them as much as I want without getting into trouble for it. Yes, once we are reborn and renewed in mind and heart, we really just don’t want to judge anymore.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

What is the relationship between accusing and judging?

The other day, I was briefly troubled by some nasty thoughts accusing myself. Not so long ago I had lots of thoughts running loose in my ill mind, but now it is quiet. It is like the demon has been chased out – but then the other day I think seven more subtle and sinister came in.

Here’s what I mean. Used to be when my wife got sick, I’d be troubled with thoughts like, “she’s gonna die and you’re gonna be up a creek.” Not only was I being taunted, I was being accused of being selfish because it is all about ME. I recall this because the other day she got sick and it was different. It seemed quiet and peaceful and I thought it was wonderful, until out of the silence arose a whole new generation of attacks, except this time they were like, “you are taking her to the doctor more so she will like you than that you care about her health.” And another one, “would you really die for her if it came down to it? What if nobody would know?” It was ridiculous; I thought, “where in the world is this trash coming from?” It felt like an attack based mostly in pride, and I felt very weak, mentally, when I thought the thoughts.

Anyway I let go of the thoughts and they left after less than a minute, but it was a troubling minute where I felt accused, tested, and judged – with nobody else to blame.

Looking back at it, as of right now I believe I should be thankful for it, because it might have been purgative contemplation or something wonderful like that. Thank God for His peace and joy!

Alan

 

[Sirach2]

Trishie:

Enlighten those who see a few incidents or an isolated occurrence or appearance, even from years past, and then presume to make a permanent judgement like “he always does this.” “She always is like that.” “He is that sort of person.” How unjust to judge others in this way! Even if former perceptions happen to be accurate, who can judge that any person has not advanced in wisdom or grace!

Oh my, you said a mouthful, Trishie. It’s worth repeating!

If we defend victims of misjudgement, some accusers reconsider their opinion, while others cling to prejudice. Some people believe that their subjective view of people, reality, and events is the only valid one; therefore, we cannot expect them to be open to contrary evidence or testimony. They honestly believe that their judgements are correct. They seem not to be fully responsible for the injustice of their viewpoints.

I have difficulty believing that God will not judge the hardness of their hearts, as being “not fullly responsible.” But after reconsidering, some are born into families where parents are very vocally negative about everyone. This habit of nitpicking judgment is picked up by their children. It will take a real undoing for the Holy Spirit to convict such a one. Last week’s scripture verse, “Do not dispute with words” is apropo, because words will never touch the heart of these people and will often frustrate the admonisher.

The best course of action is to lift them in prayer, and let go of any further attempt to convince them, if the first or second try goes unheeded. In truth, it may even be so painful as to sever a friendship.

 

[ncjohn]

I see your point. It seems to me that you can have a preference for one over the other, and it not really be judging. This may require further examination; where is the dividing line between having a preference and judging?

Interesting I should see this right now. I made a statement this morning that I have no interest in participating in a particular type of discussion because I’ve been down that road before and have seen the results and don’t want to disturb my peace by potentially falling into that pit again.

In one way I’m judging that the person who would be involved in the discussion will go down the same road as others in the past. That is, to a certain extent, categorizing that person and judging him or her before they have had a chance to present their views. On the other hand I have already been exposed to some of those views and they do indeed seem to follow the patterns I’ve previously enountered.

In another way, I also know from experience that discussions on the topic tend to bring out the worst in me since I neither tolerate the accusations well that typically come out of it, nor do I deal well with the frustration that sets in frorm being bombarded with what I see as a totally invalid viewpoint.

Yes, there is both evaluation and judgment involved, along with a desire to “avoid the near occasion of sin”, that sin being the judgment I pretty much know I will be drawn to. In essence I’m making a judgment to try to avoid a situation of judging.

 

[lizaanne]

This is a fantastic show on this very topic - I wonder how you all feel about this:

The One True Faith - Judgementalism

~Liza

 

[Morningkill]

Hey, AlanFromWichita, OP . . .

Don’t look now, but your original post is full of judgments.

Judgment is AWESOME. It is what separates us from the animals. If we do not judge, then we will marry the first person we meet, believe anything we are told (or, conversely, never get married, never believe anything etc.)

Merely agreeing or disagreeing with this post is a form of judgement.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Hey, AlanFromWichita, OP . . .

Don’t look now, but your original post is full of judgments.

Judgment is AWESOME. It is what separates us from the animals. If we do not judge, then we will marry the first person we meet, believe anything we are told (or, conversely, never get married, never believe anything etc.)

Merely agreeing or disagreeing with this post is a form of judgement.

Interesting claim. I just reread my first post, and I’m not sure what you mean. I have made some assumptions and I have made some observations, and I think I saw a couple value judgments like with the key word “should” involved.

I’m curious to hear about what judgments you saw in it. I don’t care how trivial or irrelevant it seems; I said I want to get radical and I mean to do it. That means that I want to isolate the essence of judgment down to the closest we can pin it, and then purge myself of all of it. That is, all of the “bad” judgment in the case you convince me there is “good” judgment.

Thank you for challenging me, because I want to be tested on this. I asked for it, and if I have egg on my face I expect true friends would tell me.

Alan

 

[DBT]

Here’s what I mean. Used to be when my wife got sick, I’d be troubled with thoughts like, “she’s gonna die and you’re gonna be up a creek.” Not only was I being taunted, I was being accused of being selfish because it is all about ME. I recall this because the other day she got sick and it was different. It seemed quiet and peaceful and I thought it was wonderful, until out of the silence arose a whole new generation of attacks, except this time they were like, “you are taking her to the doctor more so she will like you than that you care about her health.” And another one, “would you really die for her if it came down to it? What if nobody would know?” It was ridiculous; I thought, “where in the world is this trash coming from?” It felt like an attack based mostly in pride, and I felt very weak, mentally, when I thought the thoughts.

**Anyway I let go of the thoughts **and they left after less than a minute, but it was a troubling minute where I felt accused, tested, and judged – with nobody else to blame.

Looking back at it, as of right now I believe I should be thankful for it, because it might have been purgative contemplation or something wonderful like that. Thank God for His peace and joy!

Alan

A little digression from your main topic . . . (but that’s what I seem to do)

You’re probably right about this.

I love St. John of the Cross’ explanation of what you’re saying. He uses the term “first movements” to describe all those sub-conscious thoughts and feelings (our joys, hopes, sorrows, fears) that just seem to bubble up from nowhere . . . usually when our “little world” we create in our mind is being rocked or challenged.

While we can’t control the onset of these “first movements” . . . our primary goal should be to not indulge them once we recognize them just as you say. These first movements are easier to sweep away at initial onset . . . before they take root through mental preoccupation.

Purgative contemplation is what jars loose all these things buried deep within us. And the way we grow through trials of this nature is to strive ever harder for recollection . . . turning and re-turning our thoughts **to Him **. . . rather than allowing ourselves to be pulled toward all the wild fancies our mind’s sometimes create. And often these first movements go against our will . . . we don’t want them . . . but we can’t seem to stop them. The trial and struggle to maintain recollection in the face of all this is one of St. John’s meaning of the term “night.” But our effort will not go unrewarded. We will grow in all the virtues . . . but especially abandonment and trust . . . which so much of contemplation is built upon. Thus, we learn to do His will by rejecting the pull of these movements . . . and we bring our lower and higher natures into conformity.

If we are faithful in combatting in the way described, St. John holds out a wonderful carrot for all of us . . . that the day may come where all is purified to such an extent that even our “first movements” are in complete conformity with His will and we won’t have inner battles like this anymore.

Dave

 

[lizaanne]

Interesting claim. I just reread my first post, and I’m not sure what you mean. I have made some assumptions and I have made some observations, and I think I saw a couple value judgments like with the key word “should” involved.

I’m curious to hear about what judgments you saw in it. I don’t care how trivial or irrelevant it seems; I said I want to get radical and I mean to do it. That means that I want to isolate the essence of judgment down to the closest we can pin it, and then purge myself of all of it. That is, all of the “bad” judgment in the case you convince me there is “good” judgment.

Thank you for challenging me, because I want to be tested on this. I asked for it, and if I have egg on my face I expect true friends would tell me.

Alan

Have you watched the video I posted previously? Morningkill and I are in total agreement on this - we are CALLED to judge, repeatedly!!! Scripture calls us to judge far more often than the same verse quoted over and over and over again - “judge not…”.

Judgement is a gift from God. Without it we have no ability to judge between good and evil.

~Liza

 

[E.E.N.S]

This is a fantastic show on this very topic - I wonder how you all feel about this:

The One True Faith - Judgementalism

~Liza

Indeed! I just listened to that podcast yesterday. I recommended that the OP (and everyone else) listen to/watch this show.