Let's Talk About Hell

[Victorious]

Dogmas can seem mysterious, though. The Trinity makes me uncomfortable, for example. Anything I try to do to understand it seems to tend to modalism or something, which obviously would cause me some alarm. I tend to deal with that by not trying to understand it too often. I’m fine with people mentioning it, though. But still, you don’t see me on many Trinity threads.

I think the modern person probably finds trying to understand hell to be a challenge, perhaps like I find the Trinity a challenge. Also, I think the way the modern world is, with the issues before it, makes the idea of hell to be something that it will occur to them to question and want to make sense of, whereas unless one has been talking to a Muslim or a particular type like a Christadelphian or whomever, the Trinity doesn’t draw so much heat. So if you mention hell, they are stuck saying to themselves, “I have no idea how to deal with hell and the concept of, say, justice simultaneously”. So that makes them uncomfortable.

Yep, mysteries are…mysterious. We have to resist the temptation to translate lack of understanding into lack of belief.

 

[OraLabora]

never to have sex again. To me this is joy.

Speak for yourself

 

[nice2000]

Speak for yourself

The flesh is weak.

 

[Nostradennis]

Do you think of Hell ? Do you believe one would benefit from pondering it daily ?

Think of your last end and you will never sin.

 

[Shin]

The truth!

 

[Joseph_Kemp]

The fear of Hell is recommended by the Catholic Church only as a last resort. If you cannot reach a hardened sinner, then it may prove useful to speak about Hell. But beyond this there is very little use for it.

Modern Roman Catholics are often confused about Hell. The Roman Catholic Church acknowledges Hell, but does not harp on it. It is not often you will hear a homily on it. It is not gone. But it is also not in our faces.

TRADITIONALIST Catholic Churches are very different. Traditionalist Churches are not part of the Roman Catholic Church (usually.) They have their own Church, their own bishops, and the strictest rules and regulations I have ever seen. They are absolutely OBSESSED with the thought of Hell. They do not follow the Pope or the Vatican, and their views on Hell are considered heretical by the Catholic Magisterium. The Vatican has published several papal documents detailing their conservative heresies on the subject.

I mention this only because so many Traditionalists post on Catholic Answers, especially when Hell is being discussed. It is their favorite subject. Most Roman Catholics never think of Hell all that much, but Traditionalists do. Talking with Traditionalists can be very confusing for regular Catholics. I will very briefly attempt to make this clear before moving on to my point.

Fear of Hell is everywhere in Traditionalist Catholic teachings. Absolutely everywhere. Hell dominates their every waking thought. It is their reason for living. It is taught in their Churches regularly. It is the only reason they give for being moral. If you ask a Traditionalist “Why do you do what’s right?” he/she will invariably answer “To avoid going to Hell.”

To a Traditionalist, virtually everything can send you to Hell. Pretty much everything is a mortal sin. Washing your car on Sunday? That’s a mortal sin, and will send you straight to Hell. Going to a movie on a Sunday? That’s encouraging people to work on a Sunday, and will send you straight to Hell. Holding hands with your girlfriend or boyfriend? That’s a mortal sin against Modesty, and will send you straight to Hell. Co-ed swimming (where girls and boys swim together in the same pool?) Mortal sin. Straight to Hell. It’s hard to identify much of ANYTHING that doesn’t qualify as mortal sin with Traditionalists.

And are you feeling fed up with all the rules and regulations? Traditionalists are forbidden moan or groan against the harshness of their Church. Even one single complaint is an Offence against Charity, and could put you in danger of Purgatory, or, again, Hell.

Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a Traditionalist complain against his or her Church. And I probably never will.

(For the record, the Vatican itself teaches that you CAN work on Sunday. The point is to not forget God. Go to Church AND the Rodeo, rather than of the Rodeo instead of Church. An inclusive attitude. An And-Both attitude, instead of an Either-Or attitude. And holding hands with girlfriends/boyfriends is NOT forbidden to Catholics, nor is hugging or kissing. Sheesh. And claiming that co-ed swimming qualifies as mortal sin is just plain bizarre. Also, Catholics are allowed to differ with and complain against the Catholic Church. This is stated in the Vatican II documents, which Traditionalists reject.)

The point is, modern Roman Catholics are often confused when reading Traditionalist books (there are many) or talking to Traditionalists about Hell. I personally think Hell is an extraordinarily unhealthy subject that NOBODY should think of very much, unless there is a very great reason to. It is simply unnecessary. If you’re thinking of committing a murder, you may have to worry about Hell. If you’re thinking of destroying someone’s reputation, you may have to worry about Hell. These are big things. ACTUAL mortal sins. Using Hell to scare people into doing charitable works (as Traditionalists often do) or behaving “properly” will only give you a false pretense of modesty and charity, rather than the real things.

Hell is really not that important. It’s good to know that it’s there. But it is astonishingly unhealthy to dwell on it. It’s easy to get ensnared by fear. Regular Catholics exposed to Traditionalist beliefs on Hell often become scrupulous, developing an unhealthy conscience, an unhealthy sense of sin. They see sin everywhere, especially where it doesn’t exist, and often require counseling. If you’re trying to get a Traditionalist to listen to the more moderate view of the regular Catholic Church on Hell, that mortal sin is actually kind of difficult to achieve, good luck. There’s far too much fear. And it doesn’t look like it’s going to be changing any time soon.

P.S.: TAN Books is a particularly nasty Traditionalist publisher, that should be avoided by regular Catholics. One of my favorite TAN titles is “HELL, AND HOW TO AVOID HELL.” This book almost destroyed my faith life. It almost drove me out of the Catholic Church. I could not believe that our gentle religion could be so strict and harsh and demanding. I keep that book around even now, if only to remind me of the poison of Traditionalist beliefs on Hell. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, so to speak.

P.S.S.: One of the cruelest Traditionalist heresies is that almost nobody get to Heaven. No matter how good or kind you are, you are probably going to Hell. This was rejected outright by the Vatican, and their rejection can be read on the Vatican Website under “Radical Traditionalism.” I cannot count how many times I have seen this particular heresy appear on Catholic Answers posts. I actually read one regular Catholic man complaining that “If it’s so hard to get to Heaven, why even bother trying?” No reassurance was forthcoming.

Liberals create plenty of heresies, but I believe the very worst heresies in the world are created by conservative fanatics.

Let’s NOT talk about Hell. That would be a relief.

 

[Victorious]

Let’s NOT talk about Hell. That would be a relief.

The entire post this came from is pure bunk, right down to the punctuation marks. I grudge it the amount of space it takes up on this forum.

I’m going to set aside the crass, wanton ignorance of Catholics who love Catholic tradition and seek to have it restored. The fact of the matter is that Jesus talked a lot about hell. He died in order to save us from having to go there. His Church, which speaks in His Name and on His authority, commends hell to us as a subject for meditation, along with death, judgment and heaven – the Four Last Things. Not the Three Last Things, nor even the Three-and-a-half Last Things. No less a “traditionalist fanatic” than St. Thomas More recommended meditation on the Four Last Things as a sovereign remedy against sin. He took this recommendation straight from Scripture: “In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt not sin.” (Ecclesiastes 7:40.) This advice could not be more pertinent in an age as corrupt as ours, where immorality has become the order of the day precisely – I submit – because we Catholics have been lying down on the job.

So do not obsess about hell, but do not fail to meditate upon it, either. That may be what saves you from going there.

 

[OraLabora]

The flesh is weak.

When you’re over 50, the saying “the will is strong but the flesh is weak” takes on a whole different meaning than when you’re 20.

(you know you’re over 50 when it takes all night to do what you used to be able to do all night…)

 

[At_Trent]

The entire post this came from is pure bunk, right down to the punctuation marks. I grudge it the amount of space it takes up on this forum.

I’m going to set aside the crass, wanton ignorance of Catholics who love Catholic tradition and seek to have it restored. The fact of the matter is that Jesus talked a lot about hell. He died in order to save us from having to go there. His Church, which speaks in His Name and on His authority, commends hell to us as a subject for meditation, along with death, judgment and heaven – the Four Last Things. Not the Three Last Things, nor even the Three-and-a-half Last Things. No less a “traditionalist fanatic” than St. Thomas More recommended meditation on the Four Last Things as a sovereign remedy against sin. He took this recommendation straight from Scripture: “In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt not sin.” (Ecclesiastes 7:40.) This advice could not be more pertinent in an age as corrupt as ours, where immorality has become the order of the day precisely – I submit – because we Catholics have been lying down on the job.

So do not obsess about hell, but do not fail to meditate upon it, either. That may be what saves you from going there.

Well said.

 

[Joseph_Kemp]

I would say that the entire post answering my post is pure bunk. It equates to little more than an excuse to indulge in fear for the sake of fear.

I have encountered many times the Traditionalist credo of “do not obsess about hell, but do not fail to meditate upon it, either. That may be what saves you from going there.” What it really equates to is “think about Hell for the sake of thinking about Hell.” The message seems to be that fear is somehow absolutely indispensable to keep a sincere Catholic from from sinning.

This is garbage. A sincere Catholic will try to keep from sinning out of love for God. That’s what makes him/her sincere. Simply understanding the teaching of the Vatican is enough. Knowing the limits. When love for God is no longer enough, only then should a Roman Catholic start to consider the idea of Hell. Anything beyond this is just psychologically unhealthy and bizarre.

Behind every Traditionalist thought on Hell is the idea that people need to be controlled by fear. Tightly controlled. Ethics are not enough. People need to be scared.

I have read the Four Last Things by Thomas More. It is humorous and reassuring. Nothing like the message of fear I get from Traditionalists. The post above is likely referring to The Four Last Things published by TAN Books, a TRADITIONALIST publisher, which contains many quotes lifted from Thomas More and put in a fearful context. This seems far more the Traditionalist style.

The Four Last Things by TAN Books is absolutely terrifying. A virtual feast of Traditionalist threats and terror. It has plenty of horrifying stories about the tortures of Hell, put in the context of “very few are saved.” The message of the book seems to be “join every charity in town, do massive amounts of good works, move Heaven and Earth to work your way into Heaven, and you might - JUST - be saved. But probably not. For if the just man is barely saved, how so the soul of the sinner?”

This, to me, is the entire essence of Traditionalist belief, distilled down to its basics, and it is heretical. You can search on the Vatican website under “Radical Traditionalism” to see why the “just man barely being saved” argument is taken entirely out of context by Traditionalists.

And no matter what anyone on this site says, the Traditionalist message equates to this: you aren’t moral because you actually care about others. You’re just ACT moral in order to get out of Hell. Tightly controlled. Rigidly regimented. And terrified.

Traditionalists talk a lot about the Love of God. But it’s all just talk. Behind it is nothing more than a rigid terror of Hell. Enforced by rules.

 

[Victorious]

Traditionalists talk a lot about the Love of God. But it’s all just talk. Behind it is nothing more than a rigid terror of Hell. Enforced by rules. Hammered by regulations.

Just be honest enough to admit it.

You couldn’t pick me out of a lineup. Yet somehow, you feel competent to judge me.

This is where grinding your “traditionalist” bogeyman axe has gotten you.

 

[TomD123]

Modern Roman Catholics are often confused about Hell. The Roman Catholic Church acknowledges Hell, but does not harp on it. It is not often you will hear a homily on it. It is not gone. But it is also not in our faces. Jesus seemed to think otherwise, he talked about hell an awful lot

Some may obsess with hell in an unhealthy way, but for the most part traditionalists don’t. The thing is, hell is almost forgotten by modern Catholics today, and this is terrible.

Fear of Hell is everywhere in Traditionalist Catholic teachings. Absolutely everywhere. Hell dominates their every waking thought. It is their reason for living. It is taught in their Churches regularly. It is the only reason they give for being moral. If you ask a Traditionalist “Why do you do what’s right?” he/she will invariably answer “To avoid going to Hell.” This is not true, good Catholics do God’s will because they love God. Sometimes it is to avoid hell, and this is imperfect, but it will lead us to a greater love of God because at the very least it encourages us to do his will and leads to good habits.

To a Traditionalist, virtually everything can send you to Hell. Pretty much everything is a mortal sin. Washing your car on Sunday? That’s a mortal sin, and will send you straight to Hell. Going to a movie on a Sunday? That’s encouraging people to work on a Sunday, and will send you straight to Hell. Holding hands with your girlfriend or boyfriend? That’s a mortal sin against Modesty, and will send you straight to Hell. Co-ed swimming (where girls and boys swim together in the same pool?) Mortal sin. Straight to Hell. It’s hard to identify much of ANYTHING that doesn’t qualify as mortal sin with Traditionalists. Once again, this is extremely rare. Ordinarily traditionalists call a mortal sin a mortal sin, they agree with Church teaching. No one says that holding hands is mortally sinful, it could possibly be an occasion of sin but not mortally sinful, where did you hear this? Or are you just asserting this without any backup?

Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a Traditionalist complain against his or her Church. And I probably never will. **Thats good, we should obey the Church laws, God gave us the Church to help us, they have authority given by Christ himself. **

Hell is really not that important. Actually it is essential to Catholic teaching

P.S.S.: One of the cruelest Traditionalist heresies is that almost nobody get to Heaven. No matter how good or kind you are, you are probably going to Hell. This was rejected outright by the Vatican, and their rejection can be read on the Vatican Website under “Radical Traditionalism.” I cannot count how many times I have seen this particular heresy appear on Catholic Answers posts. I actually read one regular Catholic man complaining that “If it’s so hard to get to Heaven, why even bother trying?” No reassurance was forthcoming.

For some, dwelling on hell can lead to scrupulosity, but in today’s world we need a healthy dose of hell talking. Also, you are incorrect. The Church does NOT teach about how many go to heaven or hell. The Church teaches that both are possible, they teach what will get us there, and that both do happen. Christ implied that most go to hell. For the Church’s history, most saints would agree that most go to hell. This does not prove that most go to hell because its not Church teaching, but it is convincing nonetheless. Anyway, Hell is real but those who go there do so on their own choice, rejecting God’s grace, and they certainly deserve it. God desires to save all, so we simply have to cooperate. We don’t know the numbers of the elect/damned, what we do know is that we are in one of those categories and we will either be saved or lost because of our actions.

 

[Pug]

If you’re trying to get a Traditionalist to listen to the more moderate view of the regular Catholic Church on Hell, that mortal sin is actually kind of difficult to achieve, good luck. There’s far too much fear.

I would like to know why you think a mortal sin is rather difficult to achieve. Fornication with a boy/girlfriend seems fairly easy to do, to me anyway, and so does theft, or perhaps mismanaging other people’s money (financial things). I agree that perhaps the murder of another grown human being feels difficult to fall in to. Some mortal sins, though, seem remarkably easy. I think abortion for some people is rather easy/tempting. I think lying under oath might be very, very tempting, but fortunately, the opportunity just isn’t there on that one for most people.

 

[dcana]

Hey, At Trent, from where did you obtain the following prayer that you posted on page 1? It’s a beautiful one, but I’ve never heard of it before. We should memorize it and say it often. like St. Gertrude’s prayer.

O Mary, Immaculate Mother of Jesus, offer, we beseech Thee, to the Eternal Father, the Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, to prevent at least one moral sin from being committed somewhere in the world this day(or night)

Thank you and God bless you, BTW, for creating this thread!

David

 

[At_Trent]

Hey, At Trent, from where did you obtain the following prayer that you posted on page 1? It’s a beautiful one, but I’ve never heard of it before. We should memorize it and say it often. like St. Gertrude’s prayer.

O Mary, Immaculate Mother of Jesus, offer, we beseech Thee, to the Eternal Father, the Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, to prevent at least one moral sin from being committed somewhere in the world this day(or night)

Thank you and God bless you, BTW, for creating this thread!

David

Hi David, it’s from a prayer card offered by Our Lady of the Rosary Library.
olrl.org/pray/dailyoffering.shtml

Others can be found here
olrl.org/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=O&Category_Code=aPC

Thank you for the kind words,
Keep the Faith friend,
and God Bless

 

[Joseph_Kemp]

The only authority I need to refute Traditionalist fear on the subject of Hell is the Vatican documents. The Magisterium’s publications refuting “Radical Traditionalism” are quite comprehensive. Regular Catholics are under absolutely no obligation to believe what Traditionalists believe about Hell, or that “very few are saved.” The Magisterium covers this area in detail in their writings on the Traditionalist heresy, and can be seen on the Vatican Website. Enough said.

I don’t believe for one second any of the denials posted here. I know plenty of Traditionalists, and own (sad to say) dozens of their TAN Books on Hell, damnation, and endless rules and regulations on how to avoid Hell. Traditionalism is a fear religion. Hell is the major selling point.

Hence the existence of this thread.

Pope John Paul II called Traditionalists “Integrationalists,” because of their endless strictures, regulations, and rules integrated into every tiny aspect of their lives, to stop them from “accidentally” falling into Hell. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger called them “God’s Doomsayers,” because of the endless, heretical harping of Traditionalists that “very few are saved.”

Traditionalists can believe whatever they want. But ordinary Catholics loyal to the Magisterium should know that they are under no duress whatsoever to believe what Traditionalists say.

It is strange that Traditionalists talk as if regular Roman Catholics should listen to them. Based on the documentation of the Vatican, I regard said Traditionalists as no different than Protestants, with as little authority.

 

[dcana]

The only authority I need to refute Traditionalist fear on the subject of Hell is the Vatican documents. The Magisterium’s publications refuting “Radical Traditionalism” are quite comprehensive. Regular Catholics are under absolutely no obligation to believe what Traditionalists believe about Hell, or that “very few are saved.” The Magisterium covers this area in detail in their writings on the Traditionalist heresy, and can be seen on the Vatican Website. Enough said.

Joseph, could you provide links to these documents. As far as I know, there is no problem with believing that “very few are saved” nor is there a problem with believing that “the great majority are saved” since the Church has never defined, nor do I think ever will, the “percentages,” so to speak. It’s something that has been debated by saints and theologians from the beginning and I believe is something that only God knows. I believe the Fathers and Doctors would by and large agree with the statement that “very few are saved.” As the centuries have passed, those beliefs have become minority beliefs (I think). Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

What Traditionalist teachings regarding Hell, other than belief that most go there, did you have in mind?

I’m not sure what a “radical traditionalist” is. If you define it as someone who believes in and willfully submits themselves to the Authority of the Catholic Church given to Her by Our Lord Jesus Christ in matters of belief and practice, and, moreover, all that the Church, through Her Laws, commands or prohibits her members to do, and through Her teachings, proposes for her children to believe, then I am proud to be a “radical traditionalist.” I don’t call sedevacantists or SSPX’ers “radical traditionalists.” I call them schismatics.

 

[dcana]

Thank you, at Trent.

 

[Joseph_Kemp]

I define Radical Traditionalism in this way:

Also known as “integrism” or Catholic separatism, radical traditionalism is largely unknown to mainstream Catholics. Radical traditionalists are also unrelated to the many Catholics who call themselves “traditionalist” because they prefer the ancient Latin Mass, though radical traditionalists also prefer their liturgy in Latin. The official Roman Catholic Church condemns radical traditionalists for their anti-Semitism. In turn, radical traditionalists generally reject the modern Roman Catholic Church and its universalistic theology.

The radical traditionalists’ understanding of what has gone wrong with the world boils down to a few basic issues. They are incensed by the Second Vatican Council’s (1962-1965) historic declaration, “Nostra Aetate,” which condemned “all hatreds, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism leveled at any time or from any source against the Jews.”

They believe that most of the theological developments within the church since Vatican II have been egregiously wrong, especially with regard to reconciling with Jews and the followers of other faiths. They despise the Vatican’s ecumenical outreach efforts to other religions. And they lament the fall of the Latin Mass and argue that the new Mass, “Novus Ordo,” does not guarantee salvation.

• Quoted from Heidi Beirich, Ph.D

Tradtionalists are not part of the Roman Catholic Church, and reject its teaching authority. They do not follow the teachings of the Pope or the Vatican. In terms of authority, that is the ULTIMATE heresy.

There is a saying in the U.S. court systems: Wrong in one part, wrong in all parts. If Traditionalists are wrong about the Vatican, what else might they be wrong about? They have no authority to instruct Catholics on anything. Regular Catholics are thus rationally justified in rejecting their words and reasoning as potentially heretical.

Also, I think any regular Roman Catholic would find the Traditionalist rejection of Vatican teaching authority to be just plain weird.

 

[brotherjoe]

I have not read all these posts, but the thought of Hell troubles me. I can definitely understand eternal separation from God for those who willfuly choose it, but eternal unending and unbearable punisment? If I were convinced that Hell consists of that I would be forced to believe that a good God would not even create beings capable of meriting it. I would be a far greater heretic if I did not believe that God is infinitely good than if I can’t think of Hell as an eternal torture chamber.

That being said, keeping the salvation of souls, ours and that of others - as a daily prayer intention and incentive to live good lives is very important!!