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Lapell
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Which is also the number of years that Moses spent on earth, unless I am mistaken…
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Valke2
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that’s rightWhich is also the number of years that Moses spent on earth, unless I am mistaken…
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Robster7
Guest
Hi, Valke2!
What is the role of Scripture in the everyday life of Jews, and how does it vary among Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed sects?
You mention the Torah (five books of Moses) but what about the Prophets, Writings, etc. Combined with the Torah, this makes up the Tanakh (sp?) or Old Testament as we Catholic Christians would call it, or the Hebrew Scriptures as others would.
In the Christian New Testament Luke 7:10-13, there is a mention of **qorban **(dedicated to God). Jesus says in a dispute with the Pharisees after mentioning the commandment to honor your father and mother, "Yet you say if a person says to his father or mother, ‘Any support you might have had from me is qorban’ [dedicated to God], you allow him to do nothing more for his mother or father. You nullify the word of God in favor of your own traditions.’
Is there anything in the Talmud on qorban? Also, was the oral tradition of the Pharisees part of what eventually formed the Talmud?
I eagerly await enlightenment!
What is the role of Scripture in the everyday life of Jews, and how does it vary among Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed sects?
You mention the Torah (five books of Moses) but what about the Prophets, Writings, etc. Combined with the Torah, this makes up the Tanakh (sp?) or Old Testament as we Catholic Christians would call it, or the Hebrew Scriptures as others would.
In the Christian New Testament Luke 7:10-13, there is a mention of **qorban **(dedicated to God). Jesus says in a dispute with the Pharisees after mentioning the commandment to honor your father and mother, "Yet you say if a person says to his father or mother, ‘Any support you might have had from me is qorban’ [dedicated to God], you allow him to do nothing more for his mother or father. You nullify the word of God in favor of your own traditions.’
Is there anything in the Talmud on qorban? Also, was the oral tradition of the Pharisees part of what eventually formed the Talmud?
I eagerly await enlightenment!
V
Valke2
Guest
I can only answer this in the most general of ways. It does vary from sect to sect and it also varies among orthodox, among conwervative and among reformed. Reformed generally take the position that the ritual (as opposed to moral) laws are voluntary and can be practiced or ignored. Orthodox and Conservative Jews disagree, although how they interpet how to apply the law to various situations differs. Generally, the Conservative follow the less restrictive interpetation of a commandment. So, for example, while an orthodox jew might not use hot water on the Sabbath because it would cause the hot water heater to engae a flame, a conservative Jew might argue use is permitted because the main intent is not to turn on a flame. As for the role of scripture, all jews should be making it a focus of their life.Hi, Valke2!
What is the role of Scripture in the everyday life of Jews, and how does it vary among Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed sects?
I probably mentioned the Torah as a kind of shorthand. All the writings of the Tanakh and the Talmud are equally important to Judaism, although I’m sure many of us are less familiar with the Talmud, prophets, etc. than we are with the Torah.You mention the Torah (five books of Moses) but what about the Prophets, Writings, etc. Combined with the Torah, this makes up the Tanakh (sp?) or Old Testament as we Catholic Christians would call it, or the Hebrew Scriptures as others would.
The Talmud contain what was originally the oral tradition, yes. The Mishna is the original oral torah written down. In addition to the Mishna, the Talmud contains the Gemera (sp?) which is later rabbinic commentary on the Mishna. I’ll get back to you on the qorban.Is there anything in the Talmud on qorban? Also, was the oral tradition of the Pharisees part of what eventually formed the Talmud?
Me too.I eagerly await enlightenment!
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Valke2
Guest
I admit that I’m not sure what Jesus is saying here. Can you explain it to me? a qorban is a sacrifical offering (thus dedicated to God). There are plenty of references to sacrifices in the Talmud. The only use that I am familiar with associated with the word is the passover qorban. That sacrifice carried a severe penalty if it wasn’t done, so the rabbis gave us two opportunities to make it.Hi, Valke2!
In the Christian New Testament Luke 7:10-13, there is a mention of **qorban **(dedicated to God). Jesus says in a dispute with the Pharisees after mentioning the commandment to honor your father and mother, "Yet you say if a person says to his father or mother, ‘Any support you might have had from me is qorban’ [dedicated to God], you allow him to do nothing more for his mother or father. You nullify the word of God in favor of your own traditions.’
Judaism doesn’t assume that honoring your mother and father is a natural instinct. Hence the commandment to do so. I’m going to give a brief discussion on this in the next post so that this doesn’t run too long.
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Valke2
Guest
we are commanded to honor our parents. We are also commanded to fear them. Rambam explains that the commandment to fear our parents prevents us from sitting in their place, from contradicting them, etc. The commandment to honor our parents requires us to take care of them and more generally to serve our parents. Combined, the two mitzvot require us to revere our parents and to take care of them.
The Talmud notes that the commandment to honor places the father before the mother. And the commandment to fear places the mother before the father. Why? Because the rabbis understood that we were less likely to honor the father and less likely to fear the mother. So they emphasized honoring the mother first and fearing the father first.
The father is responisble for teaching his son the Torah. So fear/reverence of the father is ore natural.
If you are interested in a more detailed explanation, try this link:
nyhs.net/UploadedFiles/thoughts124.pdf
The Talmud notes that the commandment to honor places the father before the mother. And the commandment to fear places the mother before the father. Why? Because the rabbis understood that we were less likely to honor the father and less likely to fear the mother. So they emphasized honoring the mother first and fearing the father first.
The father is responisble for teaching his son the Torah. So fear/reverence of the father is ore natural.
If you are interested in a more detailed explanation, try this link:
nyhs.net/UploadedFiles/thoughts124.pdf
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Robster7
Guest
Re qorban:
In the Luke 7: 11-13 passage, the critique seems to have been about how one could abusively interpret dedicating something to God as a way of avoiding the God-given command to honor your parents.
Something akin to a scam to avoid paying legit. taxes.
Although in the Christian Scriptures they seem to be continually criticized, the Pharisees, Saduccees, and scribes were not evil as such. I believe Jesus was criticizing some of them abusing their position of teaching authority, and for hypocrisy.
Could you explain the origin of the Pharisees and their role in time of Jesus? Had something to do with interpreting the Law and applying it to the common people and everyday life, not just the priests of Temple.
In the Luke 7: 11-13 passage, the critique seems to have been about how one could abusively interpret dedicating something to God as a way of avoiding the God-given command to honor your parents.
Something akin to a scam to avoid paying legit. taxes.
Although in the Christian Scriptures they seem to be continually criticized, the Pharisees, Saduccees, and scribes were not evil as such. I believe Jesus was criticizing some of them abusing their position of teaching authority, and for hypocrisy.
Could you explain the origin of the Pharisees and their role in time of Jesus? Had something to do with interpreting the Law and applying it to the common people and everyday life, not just the priests of Temple.
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Valke2
Guest
Phariasic Judaism is rabbinic Judaism. It is probably the kind of Judaism Jesus would have identified with. I say this because most of Jesus’ teachings conform with Jewish rabbinic teachings (Judaism).
Pharisees are the ancestors of modern judaism. Unlike the negative associations given to the name by Christians and the NT. Our greatest teachers and sages were Pharisees.
The main characacteristic is the adherence/focus to/on oral law. The Pharisees believed that when God gave the Torah to Moses, He also gave them the oral tradition that taught exactly how its laws were to be carried out. A good example is the interpetation of “an eye for an eye”. It is the oral law that teaches us that this mean compensation for a wrong, not a literal eye for an eye.
They also believed that the oral law granted them the power to change Jewish law as necessary and to apply it to new circumstances.
Unlike Saducces, Pharisees believed in the afterlife and in the comming of the Messiah and in a future age of world peace.
Pharisees are the ancestors of modern judaism. Unlike the negative associations given to the name by Christians and the NT. Our greatest teachers and sages were Pharisees.
The main characacteristic is the adherence/focus to/on oral law. The Pharisees believed that when God gave the Torah to Moses, He also gave them the oral tradition that taught exactly how its laws were to be carried out. A good example is the interpetation of “an eye for an eye”. It is the oral law that teaches us that this mean compensation for a wrong, not a literal eye for an eye.
They also believed that the oral law granted them the power to change Jewish law as necessary and to apply it to new circumstances.
Unlike Saducces, Pharisees believed in the afterlife and in the comming of the Messiah and in a future age of world peace.
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Lapell
Guest
Yes, unfortunately I think a number of priests used to kind of generalize about Pharisians because mainly of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (publican), but also because there were Pharisees who asked questions to Jesus in such a way as to trap him… The term Pharisaism comes from the parable which I believe was meant to warn Pharisees trying to live the best life possible in the eyes of God of the danger of pride in doing so. The parable was said (in the Gospel itself) to be meant to people who were quite satisfied with themselves and who tended to despise other people who apparently were not doing as well as far as observing the Commandments was concerned.Phariasic Judaism is rabbinic Judaism. It is probably the kind of Judaism Jesus would have identified with. I say this because most of Jesus’ teachings conform with Jewish rabbinic teachings (Judaism).
Pharisees are the ancestors of modern judaism. Unlike the negative associations given to the name by Christians and the NT. Our greatest teachers and sages were Pharisees.
In a Bible course I attended the priest told us not to despise the Pharisees in general because “Jesus himself was one”. The Gospels are not specific about this, but the priest seemed to think there are clues in the New Testament that would show it…
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Lapell
Guest
Anyhow, because of the image of the Pharisee that was spread in my youth, and from some experiences in my own life, I used to consider myself some kind of a Pharisee, I mean that I used to be quite stiff on moral points and would tend to make reproaches to the people whom I saw not observing them or seeming not to care. In a way, I could say that I was despising them, I believe. I have tried to improve my way of considering them by trying to recall some positive points about them, but sometimes I was just too angry at what I saw to see them…
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Eucharisted
Guest
Dose Judaism teach that Moses will return?
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Lapell
Guest
And so Jesus’ parable was quite a call for me to view my neighbours much better than i had used to…
Then, I was rather sensitive when I heard a homily where the priest seemed to despise the Pharisee (I somehow came to the conclusion that the Pharisees used to be a far better lot than the one in the parable…) and wished that priest would come to know the genuine Pharisees much better than that!
Some priests at least seem to have acquired a better insight since, but I wish all of them would.
Then, I was rather sensitive when I heard a homily where the priest seemed to despise the Pharisee (I somehow came to the conclusion that the Pharisees used to be a far better lot than the one in the parable…) and wished that priest would come to know the genuine Pharisees much better than that!
Some priests at least seem to have acquired a better insight since, but I wish all of them would.
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Lapell
Guest
And when I say “some priests”, it’s because I don’t know how many of them have changed their view for a picture much closer to the truth. Is it “a few of them”, “many of them”, or “most of them”? Really, I don’t know!!!
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Lapell
Guest
About Moses, I don’t know… but there is this passage about the return of the prophet Elijah in the Book of the prophet Malachi, isn’t there?Dose Judaism teach that Moses will return?
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mercygate
Guest
You will be pleased to know that in my Scripture class (6th grade) I spend a lot of time “rehabilitating” the Pharisees – especially because of the way their “Judaism without the Temple” paved the way for a Messiah without an earthly kingdom . . . Without the Pharisees, who believed in the bodily resurrection, nobody would have been able to connect the dots about the resurrection when it happened.Phariasic Judaism is rabbinic Judaism. It is probably the kind of Judaism Jesus would have identified with. I say this because most of Jesus’ teachings conform with Jewish rabbinic teachings (Judaism).
Pharisees are the ancestors of modern judaism. Unlike the negative associations given to the name by Christians and the NT. Our greatest teachers and sages were Pharisees. And Joseph of Arimathea. Nicodemus. *PAUL, *for Pete’s sake!
The main characacteristic is the adherence/focus to/on oral law. The Pharisees believed that when God gave the Torah to Moses, He also gave them the oral tradition that taught exactly how its laws were to be carried out. A good example is the interpetation of “an eye for an eye”. It is the oral law that teaches us that this mean compensation for a wrong, not a literal eye for an eye.
They also believed that the oral law granted them the power to change Jewish law as necessary and to apply it to new circumstances.
Unlike Saducces, Pharisees believed in the afterlife and in the comming of the Messiah and in a future age of world peace.
If you read the New Testament, all the “best” disciples are Pharisees in thought: Martha and Lazarus would be number one and two on that list.
We’re in Maccabees now, and last Monday night I had them read aloud the story of the martyrdom of the mother and her seven sons. THESE are our forbears in faith. And Jesus clearly stands in the line of teaching of people like Rabbi Hillel.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
What astrological signs are associated with the breastplate stones on the ephod, and the 12 tribes of Israel?
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Valke2
Guest
Not in this world. Maybe I’ll run into him in the World to Come.Dose Judaism teach that Moses will return?
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Valke2
Guest
Don’t know. The ephod is made of 6 ply thread of LINEN, with blue, purple, and red wool, as are the tabernacle curtains and the breastplate. Gold threads were added to the ephod. The ephod’s shoulder straps rise from its back; 2 shoham stones, engraved with the names of the 12 tribes, are attached to them on top.What astrological signs are associated with the breastplate stones on the ephod, and the 12 tribes of Israel?
Urim and Thumim
Usually translated as ‘lightings and perfections,’ since the message shone forth and was then perfected by the High Priest. The Urim and Thumim would be consulted like an oracle; the High Priest would meditate on the stones until he reached a level of divine inspiration. He would see the breastplate with inspired vision, and the letters containing the answer would appear to light up or stand out. With his divine inspiration, the High Priest would then be able to combine the letters to spell out the answer (Yoma 73b; Ramban; Bachya on Numbers 28:21; cf. Handbook of Jewish Thought 6:36). bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp?action=displaypage&book=2&chapter=28&verse=31&portion=20
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Valke2
Guest
From the same link:
As far as the nature of the ‘Urim and Thumim’ that were placed in the breastplate, some say that they consisted of mystical divine names of God (Targum Yonathan; Rashi; Rashbam; Ramban; Zohar 2:234b).
Some say that these names were placed inside the fold of the breastplate (Rashi). Others, however, maintain that they were placed on the outside of the breastplate and that the priest would meditate on these names to attain inspiration (Me’or Eynayim 46).
According to others, the Urim and Thumim were the engraved stones themselves (Lekach Tov; Ralbag; Otzar HaGeonim, Berakhoth 6; cf. Josephus, Antiquities 3:8:9), but some emphatically reject this (Radak, Sherashim). **Some maintain that the Urim and Thumim were the borders of the tribes (Bekhor Shor; Hadar Zekenim) or astrological signs (Ibn Ezra; cf. Ramban, Ralbag). **
Philo (Vide de Muse 2:152) writes that the Urim and Thumim were two agalmatophory representing revelation and truth. The word agalmatophory is taken from agalma, an image or portrait, and phory, an ornament. The two images may have been the lion and eagle woven into the breastplate itself (see note on Exodus 28:15).
As far as the nature of the ‘Urim and Thumim’ that were placed in the breastplate, some say that they consisted of mystical divine names of God (Targum Yonathan; Rashi; Rashbam; Ramban; Zohar 2:234b).
Some say that these names were placed inside the fold of the breastplate (Rashi). Others, however, maintain that they were placed on the outside of the breastplate and that the priest would meditate on these names to attain inspiration (Me’or Eynayim 46).
According to others, the Urim and Thumim were the engraved stones themselves (Lekach Tov; Ralbag; Otzar HaGeonim, Berakhoth 6; cf. Josephus, Antiquities 3:8:9), but some emphatically reject this (Radak, Sherashim). **Some maintain that the Urim and Thumim were the borders of the tribes (Bekhor Shor; Hadar Zekenim) or astrological signs (Ibn Ezra; cf. Ramban, Ralbag). **
Philo (Vide de Muse 2:152) writes that the Urim and Thumim were two agalmatophory representing revelation and truth. The word agalmatophory is taken from agalma, an image or portrait, and phory, an ornament. The two images may have been the lion and eagle woven into the breastplate itself (see note on Exodus 28:15).
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Valke2
Guest
Finally, I found this website which gives astological signs associated with each tribe. I’m not sure how it arrives at this though. I didn’t read through it thoroughly.
becomingjewish.org/history.html
becomingjewish.org/history.html
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