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kage_ar
Guest
Are they redecorating for this? It would seem the statues and Crucifux would make a Catholic Church not proper for a Jewish celebration…
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benedictgal
Guest
You raise an interesting point. I am also curious as to why, if Austin already has a Jewish comunity, the other Jews would not go worship with their brethren instead? Congregation Agudas Achim has its own synagogue; why are they not opening their doors to their brethren?
This also begs the question: where is the Blessed Sacrament kept during this time? Another question: are they placing the Torah atop the altar? I do hope that the proper arrangments were made.
Why displace the faithful from their church?
I used to live in Austin. I find this most troubling.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
It would seem that this is a nice gesture. The parish congregation is minimally imposed upon.
My guess would be that during the use of the church for the Jewish servives that the main cross would be covered over with a cloth. Not the end of the world there.
Let’s not forget that the original Christians continued to worship in the temple (Acts 3:1) so Christians and Jews have used the same space for worship before in history.
And its also kind of symbolic (from our point of view) that after the Jewish service on Saturday would be the Catholic Mass on Saturday night.
My guess would be that during the use of the church for the Jewish servives that the main cross would be covered over with a cloth. Not the end of the world there.
Let’s not forget that the original Christians continued to worship in the temple (Acts 3:1) so Christians and Jews have used the same space for worship before in history.
And its also kind of symbolic (from our point of view) that after the Jewish service on Saturday would be the Catholic Mass on Saturday night.
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MusicMan
Guest
First off, unless we belong to the parish, it’s none of our business. Second, if a member of that parish has an issue, he or she should take it up with their priest. Third, Catholics aren’t being denied access to the Sacraments. They are still allowed to attend adoration in a chapel set aside for that purpose.
So Saturday morning’s Confession schedule was canceled. I can see what that would occur in this instance. However, the priest should have moved Confession to another suitable place in the parish complex, such as his office, the Adoration Chapel, or somewhere suitable. Or, he should have rescheduled them to a more appropriate time, such as before Saturday’s Anticipated Mass for Sunday, or advertised that Confession would be by appointment only.
These are all viable options.
I think a mountain is being made out of a molehill here.
So Saturday morning’s Confession schedule was canceled. I can see what that would occur in this instance. However, the priest should have moved Confession to another suitable place in the parish complex, such as his office, the Adoration Chapel, or somewhere suitable. Or, he should have rescheduled them to a more appropriate time, such as before Saturday’s Anticipated Mass for Sunday, or advertised that Confession would be by appointment only.
These are all viable options.
I think a mountain is being made out of a molehill here.
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KingTheoden
Guest
I cannot help but to see a tendency of those applauding this to forgo answering the important questions brought up.
I for one would be appalled if they covered the crucifix or hid away the Christ in the Sacrament in my parish (of course they never would). In many countries, it is not so easy to go to church and receive. It seems we are forgetting just how great a gift the Church is.
I for one would be appalled if they covered the crucifix or hid away the Christ in the Sacrament in my parish (of course they never would). In many countries, it is not so easy to go to church and receive. It seems we are forgetting just how great a gift the Church is.
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MusicMan
Guest
I, for one, am appalled at the lack of charity.
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Walking_Home
Guest
As do I.
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ac_claire
Guest
Just addressing this point alone (since the only real problem I have with the Jewish use of our parish is when the sacraments are restricted because of it.) Yes, there are many churches in Austin, but this is my church. I work full-time and don’t have a car. Confession for me, when I have to go to confession, is a half-day affair with the bus system the way it is here, and I plan my entire day around it. I have no complaints about that-- it’s just the way my life is right now. I know others have even more difficulties.
This is one of the reasons people have home parishes to begin with. Reasonable convenience and being able to rely on posted schedule times to recieve the sacraments isn’t too much to expect.
Also, being barred from using the narthex restroom (the only restooms in the church!) for hours at a time is just weird IMO. It’s like inviting houseguests over and letting them have free run of the house why your family is herded off into a side room (with no access to a restroom!! lol)
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ac_claire
Guest
This was my first thought when I saw the announcement. I’ve never been to any kind of Jewish service and I kind of wanted to see what it was like. But the sanctuary and narthex are completely off-limits to Catholics during the Jewish services.
Only access we have at those times is the adoration chapel, which we can enter and leave through an exterior door, bypassing the narthex and the main entryway entirely. If you need to take a restroom break or get a drink of water during your holy hour though, you’re outta luck lol.
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ac_claire
Guest
Unfortuntely the sanctuary doesn’t have any statues or a crucifix. A processional crucifix acts as the required crucifix near the altar during Mass, and it’s removeable. We do have a big resurrectifix hanging on the wall over the altar; I’m not sure if that’s being removed or not.
The side adoration chapel is left open so I imagine the Blessed Sacrament is reserved there.
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JReducation
Guest
It sounds like the greatest inconvenience is the use of the bathrooms and the confession schedule. If the bathrooms are in the narthex, there’s not much that can be done about that. The confession schedule should have been adjusted. That was just poor planning on the part of the parish office.
We host an annual evening of prayer for peace with people of other faiths. We do this in our friary chapel. What we do is take the blessed sacrament out of the chapel and place it in a tabernacle that is in the sacristy. It was built for the purpose of Holy Thursday… The altar stone is also removed and placed in the safe. We have a removeable altar stone, thank God.
The bathroom is never a problem in our friary, because we have no bathrooms for the use of the laity. Our bathrooms are inside the enclosure. That’s never an issue, unless you really have to go. The chapel was not built with bathroom acces. Confessions are not an issue, because we can’t hear confession in our house, unless it’s a person who lives in the house. Nonetheless, those who like to attend mass at our house still come. The point is that you can make some suitable accommodations for people of other faiths to use a Catholic church or chapel without offending the sacredness of the space.
In the end, this is the most important concern.
Frarternally,
Br. JR, OSF
We host an annual evening of prayer for peace with people of other faiths. We do this in our friary chapel. What we do is take the blessed sacrament out of the chapel and place it in a tabernacle that is in the sacristy. It was built for the purpose of Holy Thursday… The altar stone is also removed and placed in the safe. We have a removeable altar stone, thank God.
The bathroom is never a problem in our friary, because we have no bathrooms for the use of the laity. Our bathrooms are inside the enclosure. That’s never an issue, unless you really have to go. The chapel was not built with bathroom acces. Confessions are not an issue, because we can’t hear confession in our house, unless it’s a person who lives in the house. Nonetheless, those who like to attend mass at our house still come. The point is that you can make some suitable accommodations for people of other faiths to use a Catholic church or chapel without offending the sacredness of the space.
In the end, this is the most important concern.
Frarternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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benedictgal
Guest
The problem is that the availability of the Sacraments should never be compromised, even under the call for ecumenism. The sanctuary needs to be respected. It’s interesting, Redemptionis Sacramentum notes that:
One thing is to promote ecumenism, but, it is another to compromise the availability of the Sacraments for the faithful.
What is taking place in the parish of the OP is the flip side of what RS prohibits. This is even beyond ecumenism, as I see it. The integrity of the sanctuary needs to be respected, first and foremost. Could the Jewish congregation not have used the parish hall or some other part of the parish complex? Did it have to be inside the confines of the church?
One thing is to promote ecumenism, but, it is another to compromise the availability of the Sacraments for the faithful.
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Bull
Guest
Non-Catholics cannot pray in the presence of a saint’s relic in a Catholic buildingIt sounds like the greatest inconvenience is the use of the bathrooms and the confession schedule. If the bathrooms are in the narthex, there’s not much that can be done about that. The confession schedule should have been adjusted. That was just poor planning on the part of the parish office.
We host an annual evening of prayer for peace with people of other faiths. We do this in our friary chapel. What we do is take the blessed sacrament out of the chapel and place it in a tabernacle that is in the sacristy. It was built for the purpose of Holy Thursday… The altar stone is also removed and placed in the safe. We have a removeable altar stone, thank God.
The bathroom is never a problem in our friary, because we have no bathrooms for the use of the laity. Our bathrooms are inside the enclosure. That’s never an issue, unless you really have to go. The chapel was not built with bathroom acces. Confessions are not an issue, because we can’t hear confession in our house, unless it’s a person who lives in the house. Nonetheless, those who like to attend mass at our house still come. The point is that you can make some suitable accommodations for people of other faiths to use a Catholic church or chapel without offending the sacredness of the space.
In the end, this is the most important concern.
Frarternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JReducation
Guest
For almost 800 years, Franciscans have had the privilege of portable altars, becasue we are mendicants. We move around from place to place. Our chapels, not the parishes that the diocese asks us to adminster for them, our chapels do not have permanent altars. They are all portable altars. That’s why the altar stone is removeable. The stone is taken out to protect the sacredness of the altar. We do not consecrate altars in our houses, like they do in parish churches. Once you take the stone away, it’s just another table, a very special table, but a table nonetheless. The idea is to protect everything that is sacred to Catholic worship so as to minimize the possibility of any disrespect. We have never had anyone disrespect our chapels, but you never know. There are loose canons everywhere. When you have guests, you have to be very careful.Non-Catholics cannot pray in the presence of a saint’s relic in a Catholic building
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JReducation
Guest
The canon is correct. But if they have a chapel in which they can celebrate holy mass, the canon is not violated. The issue continues to be the poor planning regarding the schedule and place for confessions. I’m not in that parish, so I can’t say how much space they have available. But if they have office space and other spaces, I don’t see ther reason for not having confessions in those spaces. Confessions do not have to be heard in the confessional. You can have a screen with kneeler and that serves the purpose. The local parish near us has only one confessional and two priests hearing confessions at the same time. One priest hears confessions in his office. He has a screen with kneeler or you can sit in the chair on his side of the screen. I’m not understanding why they could not keep the confession schedule.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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benedictgal
Guest
With all due respect, as I read your posts throughout this thread, you seem to look at everything through the Franciscan viewpoint. While, naturally, as a Franciscan, you would be expected to hold this as a frame of reference, as I see it, this does not always translate well to the rest of the Church.The canon is correct. But if they have a chapel in which they can celebrate holy mass, the canon is not violated. The issue continues to be the poor planning regarding the schedule and place for confessions. I’m not in that parish, so I can’t say how much space they have available. But if they have office space and other spaces, I don’t see ther reason for not having confessions in those spaces. Confessions do not have to be heard in the confessional. You can have a screen with kneeler and that serves the purpose. The local parish near us has only one confessional and two priests hearing confessions at the same time. One priest hears confessions in his office. He has a screen with kneeler or you can sit in the chair on his side of the screen. I’m not understanding why they could not keep the confession schedule.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
The Sacraments should not be compromised. Why should the faithful be displaced from their church for the sake of another group? Yes, I know that the Sacrament of Penance does not have to be celebrated within the confines of a confessional. Don Bosco heard confessions on a tree stump whenever there was a genuine need. In wartime, priests have had to use foxholes as confessionals. However, we are not faced with these extreme situations here. As I read the OP, I am left with quite a few questions, one of them being why the faithful should not be able to use the proper facilities of their parish for the celebration of the Sacraments, and what is being done to the altar while the synagogue service is taking place. Where are they placing the Torah and the other implements of synagogue worship?
Ecumenism is a good thing. No one is arguing that. However, it should not trump the parish’s normal activities, Sacramental or otherwise.
That is why if a priest cannot celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a non-Christian setting, why would the flip side be allowed inside a Catholic church? It seems to me that is what is good for the goose should be good for the gander.
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JReducation
Guest
Canon law allows the use of the church for other activities that are not in conflict with the sacredness of the space. The high holy days are not in conflict with the sacredness of the space and it’s not a permanent situation. It’s a temporary one. As I said, I believe that the schedule for confessions was poorly planned. But using the church for the Jewish High Holy Days does no harm to the sacred space.
That’s not a Franciscan thing. It’s just simple charity toward others. If we have something they need and we can share it, why not, as long as it does not violate morals or Church law. Maybe that’s the Franciscan coming through in a very good way, as it should be. Because it is our mission to help others see the simple side of issues, rather than complicate them when they need not be complicated.
You have often said that the Francisan does not always translate to the rest of the world. But something that you must understand is that to the Franciscan family, nothing is more important than to help the rest of the Church understand the Church, the Gospel, the sacraments and the world through the eyes of Francis. Why? Becaues it’s a very simple, but very faithful perspective. Today, more than ever, we have a tendency to make things more complicated, rather than try to find the simple solutions so that we can move on serving God.
It’s kind of funnay, but I always thnk that God placed the Franciscans in the modern Church to keep people simple, because we live in such a complicated world and we have a tendency to see the complicated side of being Catholic, when there is a simpler side that is also very orthodox. That is the gift that we bring to the table.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
PS Here’s what I mean by keeping it as simple as possible. The CFRs do it in the South Bronx, the OSF do it in the Southeast.
youtube.com/watch?v=EYXPz_RJOCU&feature=related
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ac_claire
Guest
I wondered that, especially because this church has the large sanctuary where we have Mass, and directly across from it, the narthex opens to another large chapel that’s just beautiful. Still has the altar rail and the Mary and Joseph altars. I’ve never seen Mass held in this chapel (I think they call it the “old chapel”) but I’ve seen special services like Tenebrae and weddings held there. I don’t know why the Temple isn’t having their services in the old chapel. (Or why we aren’t having our Masses there, but that’s another thread.
)They’re also using the parish hall for other events having to do with the high holy days. No problem there. There’s not been a whole lot of info published online about this, but here’s what I did find from their own website: bethshalomaustin.org/calendar/high_holiday.asp
JR, as for Confession I don’t think anyone would mind if Confession was held anywhere other than the parish’s regular little confessional-room. We could have it on a tree stump, or an office or the cafeteria or wherever, I’m sure that’d be fine for those of us who just want/need to go to Confession.
Well, and here’s the other thing…and I may be off-base, but here goes. Part of the reason I posted this thread was so I could try to get a handle on why this was bothering me and some others. There’s the thing about Confession being cancelled, etc. …Personally though, I wasn’t really bothered until I learned that Catholics would be completely barred from the church during the Temple’s services. So not only are we being displaced, but the sanctuary is going to be used by a non-Christian group who rejects the Church, rejects Christ and thinks that the members of the parish are “unclean”? Using a Christian sanctuary and the same altar where the Sacrifice of the Mass was just celebrated hours/days before.
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dconklin
Guest
Let’s remember that Jesus was Jewish and the very early Christians went to the Synagogue on Saturday.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
The sacraments are not being compromised and people can still receive them. We have a right to have our confession heard, we do not have a right to scheduled confessions on a Saturday morning. They should have set up some kind of screen and two chairs somewhere else, but even if the confessions are merely by appointment the people’s rights are not violated.
How about a little charity? Do we only help others when its of absolutely zero inconvenience to us?
Interesting question, but are we really that concerned where Holy Scripture is going to be placed? We put the book of the Gospels on the altar, why can’t the Torah be placed there?
Its a temporary situation, and its one in which the parish/diocese is acting of charity to our elder brothers in faith.
I’m not sure I understand your point here. Technically the canon does not apply to this situation so bringing it up is not useful.
But once again, is charity worth nothing?
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