Letting a Jewish synagogue use our church

[Walking_Home]

That’s completely uncalled for. I suggest some serious reflection as to the motivation for such uncharitable and false words.

---

With all due respect Father----via experience with JR in this site–I stand by what I said.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Just as RS does not allow for you, as a priest, to go and celebrate the Holy Sacrifice in a Jewish synagogue (or a mosque), the same principle should apply.

While that may be your person thoughts, it is not what RS states. This arrangement is not addressed in RS so claiming RS should apply would be to go beyond what the document actually states.

There is a danger, as has been noted in another post, about the content of the preaching. It also sets a bad precedent.

Huh? You’re worried about what Jews preach to Jews? And I disagree about a bad precedent being set. Its a one time thing.

Charity does not mean that the Church needs to sell out.

I disagree and do not see it as selling out.

Having lived in the diocesan see in question for 12 years, I know what kind of facilities the diocese has. Inasmuch as the decision was made, I am of the opinion that, perhaps, it was not well thought out.

Perhaps you do know better than the proper authority appointed by the Holy Father but it wasn’t your decision to make. A little humility goes a long way in life. It appears to me that you are stirring up contempt for the legitimate authority in the diocese who made a decision that appears to be within his authority to make.

 

[atxne]

"By all appearances the proper authority has made this decision. Perhaps there could have been a better way to accomadate this Jewish group but this is the decision made by the proper authority. I can understand there being some disagreement here, but let’s not turn this into hysteria of “selling out” and “running away.”

Please explain all of the “appearances” that lead you to your conclusion that “the proper authority has made this decision”.

 

[benedictgal]

While that may be your person thoughts, it is not what RS states. This arrangement is not addressed in RS so claiming RS should apply would be to go beyond what the document actually states.

Huh? You’re worried about what Jews preach to Jews? And I disagree about a bad precedent being set. Its a one time thing.

I disagree and do not see it as selling out.

Perhaps you do know better than the proper authority appointed by the Holy Father but it wasn’t your decision to make. A little humility goes a long way in life. It appears to me that you are stirring up contempt for the legitimate authority in the diocese who made a decision that appears to be within his authority to make.

The diocese in question is without an ordinary as he is now the Metropolitan for New Orleans. The priests elected a monsignor to act as administrator. Thus, the Holy Father has not yet appointed an Ordinary for this particular diocese.

Father, with all due respect, if RS notes that a priest cannot celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a non-Christian place of worship, would not the converse be true? As I stated earlier, inasmuch as the Jews are our “elder brothers in the Faith”, they are not Christian. This is a non-Christian service happening in the sanctuary of a Catholic church. While you may not see a problem with this, I do, and a serious one.

Ecumenism and charity are certainly good things to practice. However, when the integrity of the sacred space of a Catholic church is compromised, then there are some serious problems.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Please explain all of the “appearances” that lead you to your conclusion that “the proper authority has made this decision”.

As far as I can tell, allowing a Jewish worship service in a Catholic parish would require approval from the Ordinary or one acting in his place. Unless someone has some proof that this protocal was not followed then the presumption of innocence should remain.

Secondly, I find it hard to believe that something of this magnitude would escape the notice of either a bishop’s office or the office of the administrator. Since there has apparently been no correction issued by the bishop/administrator’s office it is reasonable to assume the proper authority has allowed this to take place.

So unless we’re going to attack the parish priest and the diocese without evidence, I would suggest we presume all proper channels were followed.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

The diocese in question is without an ordinary as he is now the Metropolitan for New Orleans. The priests elected a monsignor to act as administrator. Thus, the Holy Father has not yet appointed an Ordinary for this particular diocese.

Are we aware of when this arrangement was made? Was it made when the Ordinary was still in power? And if not, this would still seem to fall well within the purview of a diocesan administrator to decide. After all, if liturgical norms or canon law are being violated a diocesan administrator does have the authority to say so.

Father, with all due respect, if RS notes that a priest cannot celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a non-Christian place of worship, would not the converse be true?

Not necessarily. In this instance you are exceeding what is actually stipulated in the document.

While you may not see a problem with this, I do, and a serious one.

That’s all well and good but you seem oblvious to the fact that many do not.

Ecumenism and charity are certainly good things to practice. However, when the integrity of the sacred space of a Catholic church is compromised, then there are some serious problems.

Once again, many do not see this as compromosing the integrity of the sacred space.

I again plead that we do not incite contempt for the proper authorities in the church.

 

[Walking_Home]

As far as I can tell, allowing a Jewish worship service in a Catholic parish would require approval from the Ordinary or one acting in his place. Unless someone has some proof that this protocal was not followed then the presumption of innocence should remain.

Secondly, I find it hard to believe that something of this magnitude would escape the notice of either a bishop’s office or the office of the administrator. Since there has apparently been no correction issued by the bishop/administrator’s office it is reasonable to assume the proper authority has allowed this to take place.

So unless we’re going to attack the parish priest and the diocese without evidence, I would suggest we presume all proper channels were followed.

---

I believe the Church allows the laity to address if the “proper channels” were followed. The OP can address this to her/his pastor, then go up -and if need be address this concern to the Vatican.

 

[JReducation]

---

Quit abusing St. Francis JR. In your hands St Francis becomes a tool to manipulate people and discussions.

Excuse me, but you don’t have the right to speak to me that way or to anyone else either. If you disagree with something that I say, explain that with which you disagree, ask questions if you want to do so, but don’t ever speak to me as if I were one of your children. I’m an adult and a religious. I speak to you and to others with respect, as well. I deserve the same respect in return.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Walking_Home]

Excuse me, but you don’t have the right to speak to me that way or to anyone else either. If you disagree with something that I say, explain that with which you disagree, ask questions if you want to do so, but don’t ever speak to me as if I were one of your children. I’m an adult and a religious. I speak to you and to others with respect, as well. I deserve the same respect in return.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

---

I believe I explained myself well enough JR. What I have said --has come from long time observance of how you use St Francis.

 

[zab]

Do acts of charity require us to cover up the stations of the cross that are prominently placed on the church walls so as not to offend the visitors? Do acts of charity require us to idly stand by while the tabernacle is covered with Jewish decorations. Is it really appropriate to cover and hide the statues that are in the church? Do acts of charity require us to remove the Blessed Sacrament from its home just to accomodate the gathering? Maybe we could set up some money changing booths while we are at it?!

Do any of these things cause you to pause for just a moment and see that this is really about something much more than just being charitable to another human being, regardless of faith?

Do you know for a fact that they are covering up the stations of the cross, statues and and covering the tabernacle with Jewish decorations? The question was asked, but I did not see the answer to this question from the OP.

 

[ac_claire]

Do you know for a fact that they are covering up the stations of the cross, statues and and covering the tabernacle with Jewish decorations? The question was asked, but I did not see the answer to this question from the OP.

There’s no way I could know, since I’m banned from being anywhere remotely near the sanctuary during the times the Temple Beth Shalom is using it.

 

[JReducation]

---

I believe I explained myself well enough JR. What I have said --has come from long time observance of how you use St Francis.

You are crossing the line here. This is not something that just sounds that way, because we are not in the same room, as can happen with some posts. You are deliberately being disrespectful and attacking. You have no right to attack or be disrespectful to anyone here. If you want to be truly respectful, try to remember that you are speaking to a religious. I deserve respect because I am a human being, because I have treated you with respect and because I am a religious. I don’t think I need stronger reasons to demand that you speak to me respectfully or not at all. You ,don’t even give me the courtessy of calling me by my proper title. That’s how far your disrespect goes. This is not a matter of how well you have stated your perception, but tone and language of your explanation. It still remains rude.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[choy]

i’ve been to a chapel where different congregations of Christians worship (Catholics and Protestants)

i think as long as the Blessed Sacrament is not present then it is okay

is it not the same when we hold Mass at special places like arenas? Sports events and rock concerts take place there and many other events and yet we can also hold Mass there. why can’t we share our church with other religions? as long as the place is not desecrated. and besides, they’re praying to the same God we are praying too. sure, they did not accept Jesus and his message and teaching, but up until that point aren’t all our beliefs the same?

 

[Walking_Home]

You are crossing the line here. This is not something that just sounds that way, because we are not in the same room, as can happen with some posts. You are deliberately being disrespectful and attacking. You have no right to attack or be disrespectful to anyone here. If you want to be truly respectful, try to remember that you are speaking to a religious. I deserve respect because I am a human being, because I have treated you with respect and because I am a religious. I don’t think I need stronger reasons to demand that you speak to me respectfully or not at all. You ,don’t even give me the courtessy of calling me by my proper title. That’s how far your disrespect goes. This is not a matter of how well you have stated your perception, but tone and language of your explanation. It still remains rude.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

---

No JR-- you need to be respectful of St. Francis and not use him as a way to turn/manipulate discussions. You–of course–do not want to hear this—but it is what it is.

 

[JReducation]

The diocese in question is without an ordinary as he is now the Metropolitan for New Orleans. The priests elected a monsignor to act as administrator. Thus, the Holy Father has not yet appointed an Ordinary for this particular diocese.

Father, with all due respect, if RS notes that a priest cannot celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a non-Christian place of worship, would not the converse be true? As I stated earlier, inasmuch as the Jews are our “elder brothers in the Faith”, they are not Christian. This is a non-Christian service happening in the sanctuary of a Catholic church. While you may not see a problem with this, I do, and a serious one.

Ecumenism and charity are certainly good things to practice. However, when the integrity of the sacred space of a Catholic church is compromised, then there are some serious problems.

The bold is mine.

Even if we were interpreting the RS correctly, I’m not sure that the converse would be true in this case. Allow me to explain. Allowing the Jews to celebrate high holy days which are part of the OT tradttion do not take anything away from the sacred space. The canon is very clear that the church building can be used for other purposes, provided that it does not violate the sacredness of the place.

Look at the many parishes where the “church” serves as a meeting room or multipurpose room. I’m thinking of one church building that I have seen that has a kitchen that opens into the main body of the church. I’ve never seen it open, but I would imagine that they must use it. They do have a Blessed Sacrament chapel.

I know another church which is in our neighboring parish that has those accordion type doors on both sides of the sanctuary. When they want to have something other than mass, they just pull the doors shut. Not having been there, I can’t say what kind of activities they do.

But my point is that many activities are allowed in church buildings that are not prayerful. At least the high holy days of the Jewish calendar are prayerful celebrations to the same Father whom we worship. Get what I mean?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[benedictgal]

There’s no way I could know, since I’m banned from being anywhere remotely near the sanctuary during the times the Temple Beth Shalom is using it.

That is the big problem. Inasmuch as you have access to the Adoration Chapel, you and the rest of the parish should not be denied access to the church.

I would suggest that you also write to the diocesan administrator whom the College of Consultors elected. I went to your diocesan website and no mention of this situation was made in the E-pistle.

While there are those who may not seem to think that this is a big problem, I think it is. This is a very different situation from one that I was involved in some time back. About eight or nine years ago, a couple asked our bishop for permission to have their wedding at the Cathedral. They were Methodists. Interestingly enough, the groom’s uncle was Jerry Jones (yes, that Jerry Jones, the owner of the Cowboys). The cathedral is the largest church in town. The wedding was going to take place after the anticipated Sunday Mass.

The bishop agreed, but, since the rector was going to be out of town, our deacon stayed behind to make sure that things were done properly. I also stayed with the wedding coordinator. The deacon, taking the humeral veil, removed the Blessed Sacrament and placed the ciborrium in the back chapel (that we use for Holy Thursday). The couple agreed to be respectful of the sacred space. Nothing was place on the altar and everything ran smoothly. Oddly enough, Jerry let the altar servers (who stayed behind so they could meet him) hold his championship Superbowl ring and take pictures with him while each kid wore the ring (outside the cathedral). After the wedding, the deacon replaced the Blessed Sacrament back into the Tabernacle and everything looked as though nothing had happened (except for the floral arrangements). No one was displaced.

This was an entirely different scenario from what you described. It was a one and done deal. Interestingly enough, there were some folks who came in and out to visit. No one was shut out.

Questioning a decision that does not seem right is in no way being disobedient. You have a legitimate concern. There is something disconcerting about not being able to go inside your own house. It’s like when you have distant cousins visiting. You let them visit, but, you don’t let them take over your house.

 

[zab]

Do you know for a fact that they are covering up the stations of the cross, statues and and covering the tabernacle with Jewish decorations? The question was asked, but I did not see the answer to this question from the OP.

I see that the OP did respond to that in post #30.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Apparently this has been done in other parts of the US:

In 1984 Ascension [parish] once again extended hospitality to a Jewish congregation when the community of Beth Chaverim was invited to share their worship space. The relationship lasted for 10 years until the Jewish community relocated to its own new synagogue.
catholicvirginian.org/archive/2007/2007vol83iss2/pages/parishprofile.html

And in the Charlotte diocese:

On Friday nights, Sacred Heart Church in Brevard opens its doors to become home to the Brevard Jewish Community in Transylvania County.
“Now they can’t get rid of us,” joked Marvin Barg, who co-serves with Norman Bossert as cantor and lay leader for the Jewish Shabbat (Sabbath) services held on Friday nights in the church.
charlottediocese.org/customers/101092709242178/filemanager/CNH%20Docs/SacredHeart_Jewish.pdf

 

[benedictgal]

Apparently this has been done in other parts of the US:

And in the Charlotte diocese:

With all due respect, Father, just because it’s done in a couple of places, that does not necessarily make it right.

Furthermore, I do not see anywhere in the articles where the faithful of the parish were displaced as in the OP’s case. Incidentally, one article noted that the Jewish faithful were using the balcony, not the actual sanctuary itself.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

With all due respect, Father, just because it’s done in a couple of places, that does not necessarily make it right.

Perhaps all 3 dioceses are in the wrong. Or perhaps you are incorrect in how you interpret the Church’s rules. Is that even a possibility in your mind?