LGBT equality same as black equality

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No, but there is a growing consenses that genetic influence is one factor and a larger consenses that sexual orientation is an innate unchageable characteristic of our psychological makeup with some studies suggesting characteristics in brain chemistry and physiology are observable in gay men and lesbian women. Not conclusive…but then again, it is a very very new field of study.
Please forgive this question if it offends you. Do Quakers read the New Testament? Do you believe what Paul wrote in Romans1:26-27 accurately characterizes the position of those who have faith in the Holy Spirit whom filled Paul as he wrote his letters to the Church Jesus established? No gentics there.
 
No, but there is a growing consenses that genetic influence is one factor and a larger consenses that sexual orientation is an innate unchageable characteristic of our psychological makeup with some studies suggesting characteristics in brain chemistry and physiology are observable in gay men and lesbian women. Not conclusive…but then again, it is a very very new field of study.
I find it curious that studies have found a correlation between particular family structures and homosexuality; studies have found correlation between abusive childhood and higher prevalence of homosexuality. There are many studies that undermine the claim that it is genetic. Genes may or may not have influence but so might social or enviromental factors
 
Please forgive this question if it offends you. Do Quakers read the New Testament? Do you believe what Paul wrote in Romans1:26-27 accurately characterizes the position of those who have faith in the Holy Spirit whom filled Paul as he wrote his letters to the Church Jesus established? No gentics there.
LOL…how could I take offense of a question stated like that?

Yes, Friends read the New Testament. Yes, we believe Paul wrote Romans, it is one of the “undisputed” letters of Pauline origin.

The first chapter of Romans deals with many of the practices of pagan temple worship including temple prostitution, male and female temple prostitution, where worshippers would engage in sexual rites both same sex and opposite sex rites to curb favor of the particlar deity being addressed…hence his statements at the beginning of the letter of worshipping creatures instead of the created.

As with many passages in scripture, historical and social context is indispensible in understanding some of the more nuanced passages.

Paul was not addressing same sex relationships as understood today. He was a man of his times, addressing a very pagan influence and worship practice. In the first verses of chapter 2 he even states that some of them had been engaged in such practices, so they needed to be wary in their condemnation.
 
I find it curious that studies have found a correlation between particular family structures and homosexuality; studies have found correlation between abusive childhood and higher prevalence of homosexuality
Yes, and other studies seem to contradict the correlation. No one knows what the factors are which cause individuals to be gay…nurture…nature…genetic…hormonal…or a combination of all the above plus a factor unknown at this time.
 
Usually, not always, but usually those who hold your position do so primarily out of religious conviction that same sex attraction IS NOT a natural expression and variation of human sexuality.

“Natural law” is a construct of a more “religous” point of view. Who defines “natural law”?
That is a dodge. Look it up in a Biology textbook. Males and females have sex organs that are designed to function together. Homosexuals cannot claim the anus is a sex organ.

Peace,
Ed
 
That is a dodge. Look it up in a Biology textbook. Males and females have sex organs that are designed to function together. Homosexuals cannot claim the anus is a sex organ.

Peace,
Ed
Who defines natural law?

I understand the biology of human reproduction…but human reproduction is not the only purpose of human sexuality.
 
Any suggestions for how I articulate the argument that equality for the “Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transexual community” is not the same as “the equality that was fought for the black community” as they state.
There are superficial similarities in that unjust discrimination is always wrong. Refusing to sell a house to someone because they are homosexual is just as wrong as refusing to sell a house to an African-American.

However…

The comparison is offensive to many black persons who suffered in, or during, the long struggle against racial discrimination in the US. No one has the right to “borrow” the suffering of others in order to enhance the legitimacy of their own position. The cause of equal rights for gay persons needs to stand on its own merits. I understand the desire of gay activists to want to invoke the black civil rights struggle as a short cut to convincing others. But it is offensive and it is wrong.
 
Who defines natural law?

I understand the biology of human reproduction…but human reproduction is not the only purpose of human sexuality.
It is the one proper biological function. Thousands of years and billions of people -of different religions or no religion - is proof of that.

Peace,
Ed
 
There are superficial similarities in that unjust discrimination is always wrong. Refusing to sell a house to someone because they are homosexual is just as wrong as refusing to sell a house to an African-American.

However…

The comparison is offensive to many black persons who suffered in, or during, the long struggle against racial discrimination in the US. No one has the right to “borrow” the suffering of others in order to enhance the legitimacy of their own position. The cause of equal rights for gay persons needs to stand on its own merits. I understand the desire of gay activists to want to invoke the black civil rights struggle as a short cut to convincing others. But it is offensive and it is wrong.
Especially when the majority of people begin accepting the similarities of the struggle for equality and begin to realize perhaps the GLBT community does in fact have points that need to be considered…and especially when the GLBT community begins to be awarded the same rights and status of others…eh?🙂

More and more people are recognizing that gay and lesbian people are just people who happen to be different…equality will be granted eventually…but the GLBT community still has a long struggle ahead of them.
 
LOL…how could I take offense of a question stated like that?

Yes, Friends read the New Testament. Yes, we believe Paul wrote Romans, it is one of the “undisputed” letters of Pauline origin.

The first chapter of Romans deals with many of the practices of pagan temple worship including temple prostitution, male and female temple prostitution, where worshippers would engage in sexual rites both same sex and opposite sex rites to curb favor of the particlar deity being addressed…hence his statements at the beginning of the letter of worshipping creatures instead of the created.

As with many passages in scripture, historical and social context is indispensible in understanding some of the more nuanced passages.

Paul was not addressing same sex relationships as understood today. He was a man of his times, addressing a very pagan influence and worship practice. In the first verses of chapter 2 he even states that some of them had been engaged in such practices, so they needed to be wary in their condemnation.
So you believe the Scriptures have become outdated? Romans1:26-28 clearly describes God abandoning those who follow degrading passions not just degrading practices. Read the verses again, they are not degraded by the passage of time, they are universal warnings against following perverted passions. Homosexual acts are surely disordered passions which lead to disordered acts. Paul was speaking to all ages, that is a special Grace of the Holy Spirit in most of Paul’s teachings which withstand the assault of changing times. By the way I am happy I didn’t offend you, it is a pleasure speaking to someone who does not hold my lack of knowledge about their faith against me, thanks Publisher.
 
Especially when the majority of people begin accepting the similarities of the struggle for equality and begin to realize perhaps the GLBT community does in fact have points that need to be considered…and especially when the GLBT community begins to be awarded the same rights and status of others…eh?🙂

More and more people are recognizing that gay and lesbian people are just people who happen to be different…equality will be granted eventually…but the GLBT community still has a long struggle ahead of them.
Unless you can provide a list, I have no idea what you’re talking about. None. Aside from, possibility, that everyone should say: “I like LGBT sex.” It’s a good thing.

Peace,
Ed
 
So you believe the Scriptures have become outdated? Romans1:26-28 clearly describes God abandoning those who follow degrading passions not just degrading practices. Read the verses again, they are not degraded by the passage of time, they are universal warnings against following perverted passions. Homosexual acts are surely disordered passions which lead to disordered acts. Paul was speaking to all ages, that is a special Grace of the Holy Spirit in most of Paul’s teachings which withstand the assault of changing times. By the way I am happy I didn’t offend you, it is a pleasure speaking to someone who does not hold my lack of knowledge about their faith against me, thanks Publisher.
No I don’t believe they are “outdated”…they are a valuble window into how those first people called Christians understood their world and experienced God in their midst. I do believe that those practices and cultures in which they were written must inform us some 2000 years removed. In the time and culture Paul wrote to the fledgling church of Rome, how to survive a culture with an authentic witness to the new life they found in the message of Jesus of Nazareth must have been difficult. At the same time, Paul was not addressing loving same sex relationships, but religous pagan temple practices. That two people of the same sex could establish a fullfilling relationship rooted and grounded in mutual compassion and love I’m sure was foreign to his experience…but he did write about those things he was familiar with and loving same sex relationships was not the subject of Romans chapter 1.
 
Unless you can provide a list, I have no idea what you’re talking about. None. Aside from, possibility, that everyone should say: “I like LGBT sex.” It’s a good thing.

Peace,
Ed
Perhaps a short list…both gay people and African Americans have struggled for the right to marry the one they love.

Both have and do struggle for the right to live where they chose without the threat of violence.

Both have and do struggle for the right to not be fired from their jobs because of sexual discrimination or racial discrimination.

Both groups struggled…and do struggle…with the status quo to be heard and respected.

Just a few things on the list. I’m sure you are able to think of some similarities between the two groups as they struggle for equality even if one deals with sexual orientation and the other with race.
 
You’ll have to convince people that your understanding of “moral law” is sound…and that your arguements are “objective” while theirs are not.
You can’t convince someone that refuses to be convinced.
 
No I don’t believe they are “outdated”…they are a valuble window into how those first people called Christians understood their world and experienced God in their midst. I do believe that those practices and cultures in which they were written must inform us some 2000 years removed. In the time and culture Paul wrote to the fledgling church of Rome, how to survive a culture with an authentic witness to the new life they found in the message of Jesus of Nazareth must have been difficult. At the same time, Paul was not addressing loving same sex relationships, but religous pagan temple practices. That two people of the same sex could establish a fullfilling relationship rooted and grounded in mutual compassion and love I’m sure was foreign to his experience…but he did write about those things he was familiar with and loving same sex relationships was not the subject of Romans chapter 1.
Says you. I’ll stick with the teachings of the One True Church, they don’t depend on my ego. You ride the wave of the culture and of your ego not the Truth established by the Holy Spirit, Publisher. Do Quakers belief in the unholy spirit, satan?
 
You can’t convince someone that refuses to be convinced.
True, and that’s why eventually same sex marriage here in the US will eventually become a reality. More and more people are not buying into the “disordered”…“sin”…“unnatural”…“sex is for procreation”…“natural law” arguements. Society as a whole is…has…become more diverse in more ways than race and sexualtiy. Most people are beginning to realize that the sexual orientation of their neighbor or their marriage status does not effect them in any way.
 
Perhaps a short list…both gay people and African Americans have struggled for the right to marry the one they love.

Both have and do struggle for the right to live where they chose without the threat of violence.

Both have and do struggle for the right to not be fired from their jobs because of sexual discrimination or racial discrimination.

Both groups struggled…and do struggle…with the status quo to be heard and respected.

Just a few things on the list. I’m sure you are able to think of some similarities between the two groups as they struggle for equality even if one deals with sexual orientation and the other with race.
One is a sin, one is not. Shorter list.
 
There is a new community paper in our town that is being launched with the specific agenda to “advance the public agenda on behalf of the LGBT community”. I want to respond with a natutal law, non-religious argument why the LGBT and black equality issue are not comparable.

Any suggestions for how I articulate the argument that equality for the “Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transexual community” is not the same as “the equality that was fought for the black community” as they state.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
The LGBT community often uses the language of civil rights to present themselves as a protected class, because that is the term used by the United States federal government in anti-discrimination law. The reason why they do is obvious - they want to use the law to mandate acceptance of their chosen lifestyles and present that current lack of acceptance as unjust discrimination. Blacks are a protected class. The LGBT community is not, at least at the federal level, no matter how loudly and stridently they wish to be treated as one. If they can get us to believe that they should be, then it becomes far easier to convince people to agree with them. But because of how membership in the LGBT community works, it is a disaster of epic proportions to treat them as if they are a protected class. It completely destroys the idea of what constitutes a protected class.

Race, color, religion, national origin, age, sex, familial status (parent/child), disability, veteran, and genetic are the basic protected classes spelled out in federal law. They are sometimes treated differently in different situations, and some things are unjust discrimination if done against one protected class but not another. But regardless of the details, the general principle is that you can’t unjustly discriminate against a protected class. The key thing to note is that membership in a protected class is not dependent upon behavior. Some classes may be entered into by free choice, such as veteran, but once in them you do not remain a member of the class because of your actions. For example, a veteran is a veteran because they have served in the military at some point. It doesn’t matter if the person in question is currently in the military; past active duty is all that matters. Spouses can divorce and end their relationship with each other, but the breaking of that relationship doesn’t remove the familial relationships they have with their parents and children. A member of a religion can continue to claim membership in that religion even if they don’t attend the worship services of their religion or follow any of its teachings, as long as they have been a member at some point in the past.

The problem with the LGBT community claiming status as a protected class is that membership in that community is SOLELY based upon behavior. It’s not necessarily obvious because they’ve been very successful at wrapping themselves tightly in the imagery of civil rights, and using that imagery to present themselves as discriminated against for “what they are”. But they don’t merely ask for acceptance of what they are, which is people who feel certain desires. They want acceptance of what they DO based on feeling those desires.

The LGBT community doesn’t view their disordered desires as disordered. As far as they’re concerned, they feel a desire to act in a certain way and should be permitted to do so simply because they feel a desire to act in a certain way. The mere existence of that desire is all it takes in their minds to justify it. Just as one example, rather than explain why it’s in the public interest to permit the redefinition of marriage and legislate societal acceptance of same sex marriage, those in the LGBT community pushing for it have chosen to present the lack of it as discrimination. That way, they’ve neatly sidestepped any need to explain themselves. Why go to the trouble of convincing people that your desired sexual activities are good? Get the public at large to agree that those desired sexual activities NOT being granted special legal recognition is discriminatory, and then you force anyone who disagrees with you to go on the defensive explaining why that “discrimination” exists.

I choose not to play according to the rules they wish to use because there is a clear problem with granting protected class status to the LGBT community. If we’re going to change the idea of a protected class to include ongoing chosen behavior (not everyone who feels these disordered desires presents their desires as something which MUST be acted upon), we would be determining that certain behaviors place one into a protected class without defining WHY such behavior needs to be protected. To return to the example of the redefinition of marriage, that’s where the slippery slope arguments all come from. If we redefine marriage simply because some people have certain desires, then what do we say when different people come forward with different desires and demand that they also be granted protected class status? If we grant the one without any reason beyond “I desire to do this and therefore it must be protected”, then we will find ourselves granting the others for the same reason. And we will find ourselves going far beyond marriage in looking at what needs to be redefined if we’re going to grant protected class status on the basis of behavior.
 
And that is the arguement that is being realized in our nation simply has no “power” or “sting” behind it any longer.
Our nation is not the arbiter, God is. Are you a fan of the popular culture found within our nation? Are you a practicing Quaker?
 
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