Liberals admit the OF is a fabrication. Do Conservatives?

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QUOTE=Robster7;4088701]FYI: I attend OF primarily, sometimes attend EF.
“IntroiboaltarDei” etc. It seems to lack reverence.
The Mass begins with the Priest and Servers entering. They

stand at the entrance to the Sanctuary at the foot of the stairs to the altar and engage in a dialogue of unworthiness to enter this Holy place.

**Introibo ad altare Dei
Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam. **

I shall go to the altar of God
To God, the joy of my youth.

The priest acknowledges his intentions…to go to the altar of God… & prays about his unworthiness to do so. I don’t see anything strange about that.
 
Any time I see a statement which assumes the “liberals” are in agreement about anything whatsoever, I take it with a grain of salt.

Besides, the truth is what the truth is, and it doesn’t matter what label you put on those who believe it or don’t, what the demographics are within those who believe it or don’t, what majority believes or not.

The NO is the valid and ordinary form of the Roman Mass at present, promulgated by those who, by virtue of their Apostolic Succession, have the authority to do so. What some faction of the Church or other has to say about that really is besides the point. Like it or not, poll anyone you like, it is what it is.

(PS The OF is the ordinary form, the EF is the extraordinary form. It is pretty amusing to see the difference in how the word “extraordinary” is interpreted, depending on whether one is talking about a form of the Mass or the person distributing the Blessed Sacrament. But that is neither here nor there.)
So true. I wonder what will happen in the EXTRAordinary Mass is used in the same way that the EXTRAordinary Eucharistic Ministers are. If it is, every Mass in your parish will be said in Latin. 😉
 
conservative catholics are like neoconservatives in that they abandon, usually unknowingly, the fundamentals of conservatism.

in politics, big buisness, big government and globalism are lauded by neoconservatives which are opposed to much of our founding fathers’ vision for america. they mistakenly believe that they are the true bearers of conservatism as if it didn’t exsist before president reagan. reagan is their basis of what is considered conservatism, not george washington or jefferson.

within catholicism, conservatives generally hold vatican ii and JPII as the true expression of catholicism and not the pre-vatican ii church and certainly not the post council of trent church. whereas traditionalists interpret vatican ii documents in the light of tradition–a democracy of the dead so to speak.

in both cases, the neoconservative and the conservative catholic have an ignorance of history.
 
Just so we’re all clear, fabricate means to put together parts, as in manufacturing. We should not view it as the secondary meaning of ‘lying.’ It’s not a negative word. I think we can all agree that the NO was written and ‘put together.’ It was a process of fabrication. As was the first Vatican Council, and the second. Just because something was fabricated, doesn’t mean it is bad.
 
There are many traditionalists who use common sense when discussing the Novus Ordo.

From “Should I Attend the Novus Ordo?”

R. Sungenis: The word “sacrifice” or its equivalents appear over 10 times in the Novus Ordo. There is no “de-emphasis” on the sacrificial. That is a myth propagated by various people with their own agenda. Don’t believe everything you read. Check it out for yourself. The Novus Ordo Mass is a valid and legitimate Mass that confects the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and it is worthy of our attendance. What is not worthy of our attendance is when today’s liberals desecrate the Novus Ordo with all their worldly accretions.

There is nothing objectively wrong with the Novus Ordo. Those who say it is sacrilegious and blasphemous are themselves blaspheming a Mass that God has allowed to be practiced in the Church by dogmatic order of the supreme pontiff. If you compare the Traditional Mass with the Novus Ordo, side by side, except for a few places, they are almost the same. I’ve done the study on this and can confirm its accuracy. **It is not the Mass that is the problem. It is the people who are the problem. It is people who abuse the Novus Ordo, and until the Vatican puts the clamps on these renegades, we will continue to have the same problems. The Catholic Church, for the last 40 years, has been very lax in disciplining its wayward members. Until that happens, no change will occur. **

catholicintl.com/qa/qa.htm#Question%2012%20-%20Should%20I%20Attend%20the%20Novus%20Ordo

The only thing I’ll add, is that while the author claims the Church has been lax in disciplining, it should be kept in mind that collegiality, at times, is a barrier to Rome’s ablility to act.
Thanks to StevusM for sharing this quote, in the current discussion over at FE.
 
I Believe - thank you for post # 25. I can tell you that there are some who do not agree with this. I definitely agree with the statement that some of their opinions are blasphemous of the Novus Ordo mass, a valid and beautiful mass. What gets old is hearing of the same old abuses being made to sound like the norm.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Well, it didn’t take long for this to descend into an “us vs. them”
attitude.

Liberals (not defined, by the way) are not the spawn of Satan, nor are conservatives (not defined, either) the angry reactionaries of the Inquisition.

Within the realm of Catholic orthodoxy, one may be liberal or conservative regarding which permitted options one prefers.

Re tradition, in and of itself, it is not a good enough reason to continue a practice. Just because something has been “always done this way” (at least as far back as a person can remember) does not necessarily mean it’s a good thing.

How did the tradition start, and why is the essential question.
If it was a particular reaction to a particular situation in a particular time, one should review it, especially if the situation to which it was responding to does not exist any more.

Anyway, wasn’t Leo XIII being an “innovator” in adding the prayers said at the end of Low Mass? (Yes, I know how it came about after the pope had a vision re Satan trying to destroy the church)

And wasn’t Pius XII an “innovator” when he restored the Easter Vigil in 1955? Before that it had been done in the morning on the Saturday before Easter Sunday.

I also note that in my St Andrew’s Missal (Latin) an interesting note the “ancient” church of St. Clement (no date given), for the feast of St. Clement, Pope and Martyr (late November) (pope around AD 100).
Note said church arrangement offered a glimspe of the way things were done back in the day, including “altar facing the people.”

Anyway, the church did things differently at different times, for different reasons. We need to find out why before we toss something out or drag something back in. Tradition doesn’t just meet freezing everything as it was in a particular way.
 
Here is detailed info re St. Clement. Couldn’t access it while writing previous post.

On page 1687 of my St. Andrew’s Missal, in the note for Nov. 23, St Clement I, Pope and Martyr (pope, A.D. 92-102), it says the following in reference to the ancient Church of St. Clement in Rome, although no date is given for the origin of the church.
“The title-church of St Clement at Rome is of the greatest religious and archaeological interest; it shows perfectly the ancient arrangement of a Christian church: the atrium, the ambos, the chancel, the altar facing the people, separate places for the clergy, faithful and catechumens.”
 
Anyway, wasn’t Leo XIII being an “innovator” in adding the prayers said at the end of Low Mass? (Yes, I know how it came about after the pope had a vision re Satan trying to destroy the church)
He didn’t add a thing to the Mass itself. He simply called for prayers to be said after the Mass. So, no that was not an innovation, novelty, or revolutionary change.
And wasn’t Pius XII an “innovator” when he restored the Easter Vigil in 1955? Before that it had been done in the morning on the Saturday before Easter Sunday.
Restoration is not innovation.
 
I Believe - thank you for post # 25. I can tell you that there are some who do not agree with this. I definitely agree with the statement that some of their opinions are blasphemous of the Novus Ordo mass, a valid and beautiful mass. What gets old is hearing of the same old abuses being made to sound like the norm.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Hi Ed, true, the Mass itself isn’t the problem. There is nothing non-catholic in the Ordinary of the NO.

Even Ottaviani acknowledged(twice) in his letter to PaulVI that there were other concerns even before the new missal. Failing Faith among the flock and division were already readily seen.

I’m glad I got off that “intristically evil” kick. Even a sede on another forum ackowledged this mindset is a cop out. 🤷
 
I Believe,
Granted that restoration is not innovation. But to the people of that generation the restoration of the Easter Vigil was for them an innovation (i.e., something that was new to them), although in reality it was really a restoration of something that shouldn’t have been removed.

This of course raises the question, What is an innovation vs. a restoration? It would seem that some things denounced as innovations may really be restorations if one goes back far enough (like the altar facing the people in St Clement’s Church in Rome).

Or the addtional options for Eucharistic prayers added to the Roman Canon, Eucharistic Prayer I in the current Missal.
I understand some of them are based on or date back to prayers of the early centuries of the church.

As I said before a previous post, let’s look at tradions and their history and determine their authenticty.
 
R. Sungenis: The word “sacrifice” or its equivalents appear over 10 times in the Novus Ordo.
Total of all four Eucharistic Prayers perhaps? Not mentioned at all in EP#2. Unless I’m missing its “equivalents.” 🙂
 
I’m confused, whose the liberal and where did they admit the OF is a fabrication?
I can’t find it. I did a search on the word and can not find it. This whole thread has the following problems.

The title is misleading. It is not the name of the article. The writer of the article is not a liberal but claims to be a traditionalist. He is also not any one in the Church, so the article itself is of no more significance than the comments below it or any post here.

The word “fabrication” does not appear in the article.

Liberals?

Sources are listed as:
  1. Rev. Franklyn McAfee, pastor of St. John the Beloved in McClean, Virginia
  2. a group of theologians, liturgists and pastors of souls
    ]3. An anecdote from yet another priest
  3. Pope John Paul II
  4. one of the American bishops
 
I Believe,
Granted that restoration is not innovation. But to the people of that generation the restoration of the Easter Vigil was for them an innovation (i.e., something that was new to them), although in reality it was really a restoration of something that shouldn’t have been removed.

This of course raises the question, What is an innovation vs. a restoration? It would seem that some things denounced as innovations may really be restorations if one goes back far enough (like the altar facing the people in St Clement’s Church in Rome).

Or the addtional options for Eucharistic prayers added to the Roman Canon, Eucharistic Prayer I in the current Missal.
I understand some of them are based on or date back to prayers of the early centuries of the church.

As I said before a previous post, let’s look at tradions and their history and determine their authenticty.
Restorations vs. innovation, organic growth vs. inorganic. These are good questions you raise. Here is a quote from Fr. Fessio regarding some of the canons you mentioned:

"There has never been in the Church a choice of Eucharistic prayers at a given ceremony or a given Church. In the East, there were two main Eucharistic prayers. Generally, they were regionally different, or used on different feasts. But in the Roman rite, the Latin rite, there has always been one Eucharistic prayer. It was different in Milan, slightly; it was different in Spain, slightly, the Mozarabic rite; and it was different in a few other places - the Dominican Order and some others after the Middle Ages. But there was only one canon, the Eucharistic Prayer, the Roman canon. I happen to think it is the best. Not only because of the fact that when I am saying it I am uniting myself with what was actually said by the Fathers, and doctors, and saints, and mystics of the Church for hundreds of years (more than a thousand years) - but because I think it is richer.

One problem, both at the time of the Council and after, is rationalism, which the Holy Father has spoken against. This is the idea that we can do it all with our own minds. The liturgists after the Council tried to construct a more perfect liturgy. But you know something? When you’ve grown up in a house and a room is added on and a story added on, a garage is added on, it may not be architecturally perfect, but it’s your home. To destroy it and try to construct a new one out of steel and glass and tile because that’s the modern idea, is not the way you live a human life. But that’s what’s happened to the liturgy.

Look at the other canons. First of all, when I celebrate Mass with the Roman Canon, I’ve often had people come up and say, “What canon was that, Father?” I say, “Well, that was the Roman Canon, the one that has been used for about 1600 years.” “Oh, I haven’t heard that.” Generally, you get Canon Two. Why? Because it’s the shortest. So, you can spend all kinds of time with singing, and the commentators explaining things, and a long homily, with big processions and greeters coming in and whatever else. But for the Sacrifice of the Mass, the attitude seems to be “Let’s get that over as soon as we can with Canon Two.”

Now, where did Canon Two come from? From what’s called the Canon of Hyppolytus, composed by a theologian who became a heretic, later was reconciled to the Church and died a martyr. Around the year 215, he wrote an outline of how Mass was celebrated in Rome. It was probably never used as a liturgical text because in the early days of the Church there was no final, written formalization of the liturgy, so this was an outline to be used by the celebrant.

Thus, the Canon of Hyppolytus was perhaps never used as a canon. If it was, it ceased being used at least 1600 years ago. Yet from the Council, which says changes ought to come through organic growth and there should be no changes unless necessary, we come to liturgists saying, “Oh, let’s pull this thing out of the third century and plug it back into the twentieth.” That’s not organic growth; that’s archeologism, specifically criticized by Pius XII in Mediator Dei.

The Third Canon was entirely made up. There has never been a canon like the Third Canon in the history of the Church, except in bits and pieces. Father Vagaggini, with the help of Father Bouyer, I believe, actually constructed it using their knowledge of liturgical history, which was enormous. But they totally invented the canon. It would be like taking piece of a carrot, a piece of a tomato, a piece of a peach and a piece of some tree, then putting them together and saying, “Well, you see that? It’s organic.” But it’s not organic; it’s constructed."

ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_1_jan05.asp
 
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CradleCath:
So true. I wonder what will happen in the EXTRAordinary Mass is used in the same way that the EXTRAordinary Eucharistic Ministers are. If it is, every Mass in your parish will be said in Latin. 😉

Hmmm. In other words, between the EF and the EMsHC, one would be hard-pressed to find an ordinary Mass any more? How very American… extraordinary, every one. :rolleyes:
 
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CradleCath:
So true. I wonder what will happen in the EXTRAordinary Mass is used in the same way that the EXTRAordinary Eucharistic Ministers are. If it is, every Mass in your parish will be said in Latin. 😉

Little contradiction there, I think. If every Mass were EXTRAordinary in the same way as EMHC were, then you wouldn’t have any EMHC’s, therefore no EXTRAordinary Form either. Don’t want that, do you? 🙂

Is that what you meant, Easterjoy?
 
Well, there is a seemingly endless number of angles with which to discredit the OF, but the fact is it is a catholic liturgy.

Just because one deems it a mistake or deems it inferior to the Gregorian Rite does not make it invalid. There is Catholic Doctrine in it, and the words of consecration are valid. (gotta fix that pro multis issue though)

Do I think it compares to the Gregorian Rite ? No, absolutely not. But I don’t buy into the argument that it bears bad fruits any longer. The bad fruit comes from the pulpit and liberty some clergy take in regards to the Novus Ordo.

Say H.H. BXVI bans the NO. Will that fix everything ? Will that be a good start ? If yes, then how?

A priest enabling lukewarm catholicism because of poor sermons that do nothing to build faith isn’t going to start magically building faith because he is now praying the Gregorian Rite.

The place to start “cleaning house” is the seminaries. Take the Thomas Merton books off the library shelf and replace them with St. Alphonsus and the like. Use Trent as the measuring stick.

Solid traditional catechesis coming from the pulpit is what will save souls.
 
Use Trent as the measuring stick.
Solid traditional catechesis coming from the pulpit is what will save souls.
I’m afraid there’s very little compatibility with the Spirit of Trent and the Novus Ordo. But why not include the documents of Vatican II, which is supposedly a valid council too?

But definitely what comes from the pulpit is most important, since that is what Catholics have most exposure to. Besides CA, of course. 🙂
 
But I don’t buy into the argument that it bears bad fruits any longer. The bad fruit comes from the pulpit and liberty some clergy take in regards to the Novus Ordo.
Well, SOMETHING has sure born bad fruit. I don’t know whether it’s the council or the Novus Ordo, but I lean toward Vatican II.
The nuns are gone,
the priesthood has dwindled until we now have a shortage.
“Catholics” do not believe that it’s a sin to miss Mass on Sunday.
A majority don’t believe in the Real Presence & our clergy is disproportionately gay.
Say H.H. BXVI bans the NO. Will that fix everything ? Will that be a good start ? If yes, then how?
No, that would not be a good way to start.

There are Catholics who have known nothing else but the Novus Ordo & who are devoted to this Mass. Should the Pope take this away from them abruptly…it would be no different that when the Tridentine Mass was suppressed. People would be hurt as we Trads were hurt & I don’t wish that upon anyone.
A priest enabling lukewarm catholicism because of poor sermons that do nothing to build faith isn’t going to start magically building faith because he is now praying the Gregorian Rite.
You just might be wrong there. You might see a tremendous difference in a priest after he’s said a few Masses according to the old rite of Roman Catholicism.
The place to start “cleaning house” is the seminaries. Take the Thomas Merton books off the library shelf and replace them with St. Alphonsus and the like. Use Trent as the measuring stick.
The cleaning up of the Seminaries has already started, we’ll have to see if our Bishops put the Vatican recommendations re the Seminaries into practice.
Solid traditional catechesis coming from the pulpit is what will save souls.
That would indeed be lovely to see.
 
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