Liberals admit the OF is a fabrication. Do Conservatives?

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CradleCath said:
There are Catholics who have known nothing else but the Novus Ordo & who are devoted to this Mass. Should the Pope take this away from them abruptly…it would be no different that when the Tridentine Mass was suppressed. People would be hurt as we Trads were hurt & I don’t wish that upon anyone.
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Good for you. I myself attend the EF almost exclusively now, but regardless of how it is celebrated or how it was promulgated or in what language it is said, I think we can safely say the NO does hold a certain amount of pastoral value today and if it brings people to Church, then that’s good enough to keep it. Keeps them off the street, for sure. 🙂
 
ProVobis said:
I think we can safely say the NO does hold a certain amount of pastoral value today and if it brings people to Church, then that’s good enough to keep it. Keeps them off the street, for sure. 🙂
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Without it, I would be running amok, drinking beer and smoking cigarettes.

Aside from that aside, has no one else noticed that this whole thread started on false pretenses? The OP is inaccurate and misleading. Despite we get another opportunity to re-hash the same old ground (yea!), isn’t anyone else bothered by the ethics in which this thread started?
 
The NO is Catholicism Lite. What a clever way to weaken the Church. If you banned Mass outright, they’d flock to it.

Far cleverer to modify it just enough so a man in search of something greater than himself will find, in church, a bunch of women and children singing “Bind us together, Lord” to a stage-centre priest.

Exit said man, without really understanding why.

I just thought of another way the clergy have shot themselves in the foot. If Latin was used everywhere, a retired priest could have a nice sideline saying Masses somewhere warm and pleasant. A promising young priest from the Third World could get a nice gig in New York. Instead they’ll have to stick where they are.

Uneducated people don’t understand theology. They want the experience of something holy.** Some theatre is necessary.** An NO Mass in a bare, white modern church ain’t got enough.
 
Layman said:
The NO is Catholicism Lite.
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If by “NO” you mean the ordinary form of the Holy Mass, let me quote the boss:
the liturgy was rather like a fresco (in 1918).It had been preserved from damage, but it had been almost completely overlaid with whitewash by later generations. … The fresco was laid bare by the Liturgical Movement and, in a definitive way, by the Second Vatican Council. For a moment its colors and figures fascinated us.
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From Cardinal Ratzinger’s Spirit of the Liturgy’s preface. I only mention this to return to the initial topic of liberals saying the ordinary form of the Mass is a fabrication (which they did not), as opposed to wandering off topic with “my mass is better than yours.”

Any Mass you can do, I can do better.
I can do any Mass better than you.
No, you can’t.
Yes, I can.
No, you can’t.
Yes, I can.
No, you can’t
Yes, I can. Yes I can. Yes I can.

Isn’t how this thread normal goes?
 
Excellent closing, PNewton!
That sums up my feeling about some of the commentaries in these threads.

Could we do the song with a trad priest in full monsignorial garb and biretta opposite a rad priest in jeans and and Easter T shirt (with Jesus on a surfboard and the legend, “He’s up!”.)

Seriously, much as respect the learning and opinions expressed,
I am not sure whether some the things criticized (esp.Eucharistic Prayers in Fr Fessio article linked earlier) are essentialy wrong, or heretical. It would seem they don’t follow some rule of development or origination. Where this rule came from, I don’t know, and who said it is the rule, I dont know either. I’m not a liturgist. Whether that makes them questionable I dont know.
I’m am a simple pew potato, and proud of it.
 
ProVobis said:
Good for you. I myself attend the EF almost exclusively now, but regardless of how it is celebrated or how it was promulgated or in what language it is said, I think we can safely say the NO does hold a certain amount of pastoral value today and if it brings people to Church, then that’s good enough to keep it. Keeps them off the street, for sure. 🙂
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I, too, attend the EF. exclusively, but I feel that both Masses need to be celebrated at this time. If the Novus Ordo is to “die”, let it die a normal death caused by disinterest. As I look around at my Latin Mass parish, I see that more & more of our congregation is made up of high school students & young parents with 3-4 small children in tow. Every Sunday, a couple of Seminarians come. I think that this trend shows us where the Novus Ordo will be when these small children have families of their own…but that needs to happen organically & that will take time.

IMO. the men who will be key players are the ones who mingle with the Catholics in the pew, who Baptize the babies & oversee the running of the attached schools…the Parish Priests:

A Return to the Latin Mas
usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070617/25church.htm
"Nearly two generations of Catholics now have grown up in a post-Vatican II world, worshipping in a church that celebrates mass in their local languages and, at least to some extent, embraces modern customs as much as it once rejected them.

So it seemed anathema when the Vatican confirmed recently that Pope Benedict XVI would relax restrictions on celebrating the 16th-century Tridentin Mass, citing “a new and renewed” interest in the ancient Latin liturgy, especially among younger Catholics.

Given the fierce fight that preceded Vatican II—(I’ve yet to be told what this “fierce fight” was all about & assume they are speaking of the fact that the Church silenced some very vocal & very heterodox theologians, Henre de Lubac, Yves Congor & Karl Rahner in the 50’ s. It probably also included the program started in France using “worker priests”.)the liturgical and doctrinal reforms of the mid-1960s that sought to make the church more accessible—a similar war would seem needed to overturn them. But a movement is building at seminaries nationwide to do just that: In addition to restoring the Latin mass, young priests are calling for greater devotion to the Virgin Mary, more frequent praying of the rosary, and priests turning away from the congregation as they once did. Perhaps most controversially, they also advocate a dimished role for women, who since Vatican II have been allowed to participate in the mass as lay altar servers and readers.

The words in blue are my own.
 
I_Believe said:
The place to start “cleaning house” is the seminaries. Take the Thomas Merton books off the library shelf and replace them with St. Alphonsus and the like. Use Trent as the measuring stick.
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Just out of curiosity for those of us who are “pew potatoes” (sorry/thanks, Robster7 👍), what exactly is wrong with Thomas Merton?

I have a copy of The Seven Story Mountain, but I haven’t read it yet. (I haven’t read St Alphonsus, either. 🤷)

I was actually thinking of starting my Catholic reading list with St Theresa of Lisieux. Maybe? Maybe not? :confused:
 
CradleCath said:
I_Believe;4092855:
Say H.H. BXVI bans the NO. Will that fix everything ? Will that be a good start ? If yes, then how?
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No, that would not be a good way to start.

There are Catholics who have known nothing else but the Novus Ordo & who are devoted to this Mass. Should the Pope take this away from them abruptly…it would be no different that when the Tridentine Mass was suppressed. People would be hurt as we Trads were hurt & **I don’t wish that upon anyone. **
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God bless you for that.

I have read on these forums about the pain and loss that was felt by many (most?) Catholics when the TLM – the only Mass they knew for their whole lives – was suppressed.

I myself am a Vatican II baby – baptized OF, First Confession/First Communion OF, confirmation OF. For 43 years it’s Novus Ordo. But I didn’t know it was the Novus Ordo. Or the “Ordinary Form.” Or the “Pauline Mass”. It was just “The Mass”. It’s all I knew – and still all I know.

I want to go to a Latin Mass, but now I am afraid. I have spent 40-plus years reciting the prayers, saying the Confetior, and the Gloria, and the Psalm refrains, and the Our Father, etc…and singing my heart out, even when I didn’t particularly like the song, because I was singing for God’s glory – and since God saw fit to saddle me with the singing voice that He did, well, He has to put up with it. 👍

Yet now it seems that I must be silent – the deacons or the servers will answer for me. As a matter of fact, the priest won’t even face you, let alone talk to you – and you probably won’t hear half of what’s being said. Just sit/kneel down and be quiet. Will I even be allowed to sing along with the choir? Or must I be silent there?

Do you see why I am afraid? Going into the Latin Mass will be as alien to me – a Latin Rite Catholic – as it would if I wandered into a Eastern Church.

I love Mass. Not the NO, OF, etc – just The Mass. Will that now go away? Is the Church’s 50-odd years of this Mass just a liturgical rumspringa? How do I bridge the gap between the only Mass I know and love with something so totally different?

I didn’t know much about Traditional Catholicism before I came here. I truly didn’t realize the extent ofthe differences between the TLM and the NO until I came here – I feel like I have just been told I was adopted and I am now going to live with my “real” parents, whom I’ve never met.

I am not making this up, or exaggerating. What started out as anticipation of going to a Latin Mass has morphed into apprehension and now spiritual terror.

A little help, maybe…? 😦
 
Ghoti,

Be not afraid. I am a Vatican II baby too. It will seem an alien experience, as it did to me. It is good to see what was Mass back then, and what it is now. Good to know some history.

No worries re them getting rid of the vernacular mass. Even the proposed changes to wordings in prayers will not be implemented if approved before 2011.

If you can borrow an old latin missal, that might help. Then you have to figure out what Sunday/Feast it is to follow the readings.
And you will mostly be an onlooker, not a participant. And things will move so fast youll be up to the Gospel before you know it.
And at Low Mass, this will all be mostly silent, and be said very quickly.

It took some time, but I was eventually able to appeciate it. You will seen in my previous posts to this thread what my difficulties are. But the vernacular mass is the one I normally go to, and prefer.
 
Ghoti said:
Just out of curiosity for those of us who are “pew potatoes” (sorry/thanks, Robster7 👍), what exactly is wrong with Thomas Merton?

I have a copy of The Seven Story Mountain, but I haven’t read it yet. (I haven’t read St Alphonsus, either. 🤷)

I was actually thinking of starting my Catholic reading list with St Theresa of Lisieux. Maybe? Maybe not? :confused:
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Merton ?
He was an ordained priest who got a little too facinated with a nurse, and, buddha.
 
Robster7 said:
Excellent closing, PNewton!
That sums up my feeling about some of the commentaries in these threads.

Could we do the song with a trad priest in full monsignorial garb and biretta opposite a rad priest in jeans and and Easter T shirt (with Jesus on a surfboard and the legend, “He’s up!”.)

Seriously, much as respect the learning and opinions expressed,
I am not sure whether some the things criticized (esp.Eucharistic Prayers in Fr Fessio article linked earlier) are essentialy wrong, or heretical. It would seem they don’t follow some rule of development or origination. Where this rule came from, I don’t know, and who said it is the rule, I dont know either. I’m not a liturgist. Whether that makes them questionable I dont know.
I’m am a simple pew potato, and proud of it.
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Hi Robster,

Fr. Fessio’s critique certainly does not mean the NO or its Eucharistic prayers are wrong or heretical, and that’s not the point he is trying to make.

Rather, it is that the old liturgy developed slowly, bit by bit, over the centuries (otherwise known as organic development).

The New Mass was given over to a committee which completely reworked it in a very short period of time, and Fr. Fessio gives some examples of this. This would be known as inorganic development.

As far as where this “rule”, or principle, is found, one place is in Sacrosanctum Concilium:
  1. …Finally, there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

God bless.
 
Brennan D, thanks for the courteous reply.

I-Believe: So Merton sinned like the rest of us (is this confirmed, or just a rumor; I have heard it too). I am disappointed when one falls from grace,especially in that way, but we are all human. Does being a sinner invalidate the validity of what one writes? The remark about the nurse seemed a little catty and adolescent in tone (smirk, smirk, nudge, nudge).

How did any of his explorations of Eastern religion affect the orthodoxy of his Catholcism? I had tried to read a short book of a collection of Merton’s wrtiings on Eastern religions. Intro notes that he may have misunderstood them, because his book sources about the topic may have less than accurate on the topics, too.
 
I_Believe said:
Hi Ed, true, the Mass itself isn’t the problem. There is nothing non-catholic in the Ordinary of the NO.

Even Ottaviani acknowledged(twice) in his letter to PaulVI that there were other concerns even before the new missal. Failing Faith among the flock and division were already readily seen.

I’m glad I got off that “intristically evil” kick. Even a sede on another forum ackowledged this mindset is a cop out. 🤷
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Yet, the site your sig. line links us to is one of the
“Transalpine Redemptorists”, a congregation until recently associated with the Priestly Fraternity of St Pius X (SSPX), It has changed its name to “Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer” (Filii Sanctissimi Redemptoris). Henceforth they will use the initials “F.SS.R”.

I don’t understand??
 
Could it be that they do not want people to know who they truly are?
prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
Could it be that they do not want people to know who they truly are?
prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Doesn’t matter what they want people to know, because they truly are in full communion with the Pope. Geez, prayers that they may come into full communion one day, then bashing the next. Can we be a little less charitable, Deacon? :rolleyes:
 
For the third time I will mention this. No one is adressing the original post. Instead this thread has been a launching point of traditionals and antitraditional discussion without any acknowledgement that the thread started under false pretenses. Re-read the title. It baits conservative Catholics with a lie. I know that most traditionalists do not stoop to such tactics, but why should anyone, if they truly believe something, need to bait and lie to get the ball rolling. The article is not name after this title. It was not written by a liberal. There is no liberal mentioned in the article. No one said anything was a fabrication, except the original poster.

Doesn’t this bother anyone else or is lying for the sake of tradition an acceptable practice.
 
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