Lies, Damned Lies, and Alyssa Milano

[ConcernedConvert]

Should we also restrict cars, spoons, and fast food food as well then?

 

[TULIPed]

So comparing the two issues is very much apples-to-oranges.

Would you trade an apple for an orange?

I would. Every day, and 2x on Sundays. (And I’ve owned and shot(?) oranges all my life)

 

[Zach]

She is so ingrained in the conformist celebrity echo chamber culture that she can’t see beyond her bubble, and even if she could the peer pressure would be so overwhelming that she couldn’t follow through without the help of the Holy Spirit. All we can do is pray that she sees the light and has a conversion.

 

[goout]

So let’s follow the Milano-logic.

I assert my right to make choices.

Is it a human right?

Oh yes, it’s a human right to make choices.

Really? What’s a human right?
Does Milano even know what human rights are?

Are human rights proper to cats?
How about trees? Are human rights proper to trees?
Are human rights proper to dead people? Can my dead gramma assert her human rights?

No, should be obvious that human rights are proper to living human beings.
And so she is a walking contradiction.

We live in the age of enlightenment supposedly, but people can’t reason their way out of a paper bag.

 

[Jimbo]

I honestly wonder if she would recognize human rights as a thing. The reason I say that is because I went to college with several environmentalists who spoke at length about ‘speciesism’; where all life had the same rights and humans were bigoted in having special rights for ourselves. I had one young lady tell me it was wrong, and possibly genocide, for us to eliminate smallpox.

So, she may be coming from there.

 

[Zach]

The part about small pox just shows that there is no limit to their twisted logic. I can guarantee you if these people or their children were suffering from a viral or bacterial infection they would go and get anti-virals or anti-bacterials.

 

[goout]

I honestly wonder if she would recognize human rights as a thing. The reason I say that is because I went to college with several environmentalists who spoke at length about ‘speciesism’; where all life had the same rights and humans were bigoted in having special rights for ourselves. I had one young lady tell me it was wrong, and possibly genocide, for us to eliminate smallpox.

So, she may be coming from there.

Possibly. Even in that case a person should be able to answer the basic question:
I assert my right to choice based on…
What?

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

Pro-choice and pro-life has nothing to do with socialism. I have heard this socialism malarkey for the last 40 years or so.
This country is no closer to socialism today than it was back then.
We may have stricter gun regulation in the future, but with all the guns that are already out there in this country, the possibility of the government confiscating that weaponry would be about the same as the governments ability to round up 10 to 12 millions illegal aliens in the country, virtually impossible.
At one point, we may be a little closer to socialized medicine, but if it brings costs down of procedures and medicine down, that can only be a good thing.
Back to the original subject, we must pray for those who choose abortion.

 

[Magnanimity]

For many years, those of us in the pro-life camp assumed that if we could simply demonstrate that prenatal life is human life , we would win the argument. We were wrong. The biological proof that abortion ends the life of a child hasn’t made a dime’s worth of difference to many abortion-advocates. The fact that abortion is the intentional taking of a human life is not considered the most relevant point nor even a relevant point.

What is relevant? Choice

At the risk of wading into unsettled waters, I’d like to offer a suggestion to help understand the pro-choice side. As with all heated arguments when passions flare, understanding and further clarity is ever needed.

If one rejects Modernist individualism bc it’s granted as true that “no man is an island,” and if you add to it a further belief that “it takes a village” to raise a child, then the prospect of bringing a child into this world is not an easy consideration, especially for the mother.

I know all the pro-life arguments, and I accept them all. I also know that pro-choicers can tend to be science-deniers with the bundle-of-cells (or goo) arguments. Those pro-choice arguments are awful, and they fall flat.

However, I do often wonder just how much pro-lifers acknowledge the overwhelming job that parenting in fact is, especially of newborns and toddlers. It’s incredibly time-consuming and difficult at times. It has its immense joys too, of course, but for the woman who might be alone in this mothering journey and who doesn’t have a “village” to assist her, the prospect of raising a child from utterly-dependent infancy all the way to 18 (and beyond) can be a daunting task.

And I know the pro-life response: that all these considerations are irrelevant to the life of the in-utero child. But, something about this pro-life response strikes me as fundamentally Modernist (hyper-individualist) and fails to appreciate the deeply communal aspect of child-rearing.

Again, I’m staunchly pro-life myself. But I think that the pro-life camp sometimes refuses to acknowledge the deep (and justifiable!) fears associated with mothering a child in a difficult situation (single-parent, poverty, no family nearby, etc).

 

[Zach]

The problem with that argument is that it could be made once the child is born. All the issues you bring up are there before or after the child is born. Once the child is born nobody is advocating killing him or her because the hardship or inconvenience the baby might cause. (leaving aside the controversial statements made by some public figures). If this is beyond the pale then why is not aborting the baby inside the womb also beyond the pale. It’s just as much a human as the baby outside the womb.

 

[pnewton]

But the nation’s collective undergarments are all in a bunch over what to do about the .001% of firearms that are used in violence. Gotta ban them all! Where’s the “choice” in that?

Wow, both a straw man and something completely out of the blue. I seems on every thread abortion pops up whether relevant or not. Now, it is guns? Three posts in the hijack begins, as if there are not enough gun threads right now.

If one is wanting to give a good comparison of pro-choice in other areas, slavery is a solid choice, as is rape, embezzlement (from the article) or some other person on person crime. And not to slam on John Clark (the author) but who cares what a celebrity thinks. Almost all of their public activism is outside their area of expertise, trying to spend their popularity to sway others. The truth is, most of these blogs and fan clubs attract only like-minded people who are not interested in thinking, preferring to follow their false idol.

What I prefer to pray for in such people is that their voice be stifled through conversion or loss of popularity, so they stop piling up millstones.

 

[JohnDennis]

Yes they do know how difficult it is to raise children. Many are parents themselves. Go to a pro life gathering at a PLANNED PARENTHOOD facility. Talk to them and you will see. Many babies are not only saved from execution but are given free medical care, food , a place to live, support and most of all love . I have also seen babies eventually adopted and taken in. Am I saying each person their have perfect motivation? No but the overall feeling their is to allign ourselves with Christ and his commandment to not only love God but love one another. Personally I think many of these angry women have been hurt so bad that it manifests itself in anger. Instead of seeking Gods mercy and forgiveness they turn inward and look for answers from the “world” . They will never have true peace no matter how loud they yell. Lets all pray for Alyssa Milano’s conversion. We could use her on Gods side just like St Paul.
God Bless
JohnW

 

[po18guy]

If you can find it in your heart, view it as a parallel rather than a derail. Consider China: people do not own guns. Still lots of crime and guess what? Forced abortions! What is one to do to stop that? To prevent that?

Well, my point is that hypocrisy is hypocrisy. While the center-right has its share, the left/progressive wing has mastered the talent. The ad hominem and silly marginalizing verbiage from the left just completes the package.

I am not speaking of you.

 

[Magnanimity]

The problem with that argument is that it could be made once the child is born

Hey Zach. It’s clear to me that it already is made after some children are born. Not all who have children maintain custody of their children after they are born. I personally know a lady who gave up custody of her three young children when they were all under the age of 10. Grandma raised them.

All the issues you bring up are there before …the child is born.

No they are not. Pregnancy is not child-rearing, not even close. About all the mother is doing during pregnancy is taking prenatal vitamins, eating as well as she can, and getting rest. Her body is doing everything else. There is a world of difference between prenatal and postnatal, from the perspective of the parent.

leaving aside the controversial statements made by some public figures

Yeah, we are kidding ourselves if we think that what happened recently in West Virginia will not become more widespread as the years roll on. For now, the wider public believes that birth is a magic moment and that infanticide must be opposed. But I don’t know if there’s good reason for believing that that you will necessarily stick.

But even leaving all these issues I’ve mentioned aside, we still have plenty of instances where a couple becomes accidental parents, and does not abort perhaps for moral reasons, but has no intention of being a good, quality parent. A child who grows up in this household will suffer.

The raising of a child is a monumental undertaking. Those of us who have done so can speak from experience. And those of us who have done so as single parents or in poverty or being away from all friends and family while trying to raise the child, are keenly aware of the difficulties. I imagine that some pro-choice advocates have in mind these types of circumstances. As in, they might agree with Bill Clinton who once said that abortion should be safe, legal and very rare.

Again, I am as pro-life as anyone on this forums. But I’m also trying to be sympathetic to the reasoning of the other side and not trying to attribute stupidity or a horrible moral sense to account for their pro-choice views.

 

[Elf01]

Hey Zach. It’s clear to me that it already is made after some children are born. Not all who have children maintain custody of their children after they are born. I personally know a lady who gave up custody of her three young children when they were all under the age of 10. Grandma raised them.

A better analogy would be her having killed them.

The raising of a child is a monumental undertaking. Those of us who have done so can speak from experience. And those of us who have done so as single parents or in poverty or being away from all friends and family while trying to raise the child, are keenly aware of the difficulties. I imagine that some pro-choice advocates have in mind these types of circumstances. As in, they might agree with Bill Clinton who once said that abortion should be safe, legal and very rare.

Adoption is the solution for that.

 

[Magnanimity]

A better analogy would be her having killed them

It’s not an attempt at analogy on my part—it’s an acknowledgement that not all who have kids choose to raise them.

Adoption is the solution for that.

It is a solution, no doubt. But I wonder how many pro-lifers are signing up for that work?

My arguments above are attempting to point out the illusory, Modernistic hyper-individualism that underlies some pro-life arguments. We too often pretend to ourselves that raising kids is a piece of cake, nearly as easy as making them in the first place. And that is obviously a terrible fiction. Raising kids is an all-encompassing job that really does take some sort of village.

 

[JohnDennis]

Can anyone here cite me any state law that would fall under the definition of “choice”? It’s " wordspeak
"plain and simple. Just like anti-choice and pro-choice. They have manipulated the language to serve their
purpose which is children are an obstacle to happiness. The fewer children in this world the better off you and society will be. Lies as the OP stated. The argument of not enough resources to support all these children is a false one. There are plenty couples who would adopt and raise these unwanted ones. I believe most women would choose to give life if they had the support. Its that dark underbelly of corrupted political and greedy medical hucksters that take advantage of women by providing zero information and having laws that protect their OWN interests. Not the child or mother. So any person who uses this too “difficult of a undertaking” is either been brainwashed by the secular media or is just plain ignorant of the truth because the truth has been intentionally stifled.
God Bless
JohnW

 

[DeniseNY]

Does anyone think she is trying very hard to convince herself that the things she says are true?

 

[Magnanimity]

I believe most women would choose to give life if they had the support

I completely agree. But this just supports my reasoning in this thread—it’s a tacit acknowledgement that the having of a child, even to the point of giving the child over for adoption, is something that needs support, a lot of it, from many different angles.

Its that dark underbelly of corrupted political and greedy medical hucksters

There is an abortion “industry,” in it to make money, no doubt about it.

 

[JohnDennis]

“Industry” says it all. And what drives industry? Profit. Profit on killing babies. Profit on baby body parts and all sorts of byproducts that are derived from them. God in his infinite love and mercy forbade child
sacrifice thousand of years ago. It was wide spread among most ancient societies. Now in the latter part of the 20th century its resurfaced its ugly head. And technology has provided some very effective methods although some dangerous after effects are coming to light. We have chased God out of our culture and guess who is moving in? Adam and Eve were given a “choice” too. But they decided to choose to be better off like God. Look at the deadly results that we all are paying for until our death.
Yes it does seem impossible to care for a child when a mom has been abused and deserted and has no one to support her but as Catholics and Christians dont we have a spiritual and human obligation to help those who have lost hope? As people of God I say of course.
God Bless
Johnw