Life as a Catholic single. A rant. (PG-13)

[Kay_Cee]

The math is very bad for young couples.

Imagine a couple where each is making $20k and then they marry and have a baby. Even if the wife keeps working, their expenses have suddenly exploded–childcare, diapers, wipes, possibly formula, food for a toddler. If the wife stops working and stays home with the baby, their income has suddenly been halved–three people will suddenly be living on an income that previously supported just one person.

Ditto a couple making $30k or $40k or whatever, but as you go up the economic scale, it gets more and more feasible.

And that’s just with one child.

The math is just really hard.

It’s not quite like that.

I was a SAHM after the birth of my first child. While my husband provided the income, I stemmed the outgo. I nursed our babies, washed cloth diapers, and cooked from scratch. I strung up a clothesline to save on our gas bill. I sold on eBay to provide a little extra income. I shopped at thrift stores. We went without buying a new car every few years (our cars are 21 years old).

Sometimes money was tight, but we managed to pay tuition for both of our kids to go to Catholic elementary school.

Our children are grown and haved moved out. Even to this day, we don’t have the terrific house or the flashy cars. But our mortgage is paid off, and–after discovering how to live on a shoestring–we are doing just fine on my husband’s pension.

The best part was that I was able to be there for my daughters as they were growing up. If I had to do it all over again, I would do it the same way.

 

[Xantippe]

It’s not quite like that.

I was a SAHM after the birth of my first child. While my husband provided the income, I stemmed the outgo. I nursed our babies, washed cloth diapers, and cooked from scratch. I strung up a clothesline to save on our gas bill. I sold on eBay to provide a little extra income. I shopped at thrift stores. We went without buying a new car every few years (our cars are 21 years old).

Sometimes money was tight, but we managed to pay tuition for both of our kids to go to Catholic elementary school.

Our children are grown and haved moved out. Even to this day, we don’t have the terrific house or the flashy cars. But our mortgage is paid off, and–after discovering how to live on a shoestring–we are doing just fine on my husband’s pension.

The best part was that I was able to be there for my daughters as they were growing up. If I had to do it all over again, I would do it the same way.

I am not clear on where you’re disagreeing with me.

I note that you mention “both” kids, which suggests two. Most practicing Catholic newlyweds (and this is especially true if they start young) can expect to have a much larger family.

There’s also the issue of the economic changes since you were raising a family–stuff like clothes and toys are now much less expensive, while stuff like school, medicine, and housing is more expensive. Hence, trimming consumer expenses is now a less effective way to economize than it was when your kids were small–clothes and toys can be handed down or gotten second hand, but ER visits and college tuition can’t be. To give another example, the median home in TX has now gone over $150k–and Texas is considered an inexpensive state. The median home value in NJ is now $286k. In California the median home now costs in the neighborhood of $450k.

A very large percentage of contemporary young adults are still living at home at an age where you were married and had two kids. If those young adults were to get married, they would find themselves raising a family in their mom’s basement for the foreseeable future.

 

[Sarcelle]

If you’re in the position to delay marriage, then you’re in the position to delay dating. It’s wrong to stir romantic feelings in a woman and not be able to follow through in a reasonable time period. I believe do people can control their urges, but I also believe that discretion is the better part of valor. There is no reason young lovers should be encouraged to fight the urge for marriage and family.

The choice is with the couple.

If they decide to get married than they should have the option. If they decide for postponing the wedding than they should have the option. No one should be second guessing them and saying they are committing sin by delaying marriage. It certainly isn’t Catholic teaching that delaying marriage or prolonged singleness is sin.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

a few observations from the front lines:
Dating sites tend not to work for many men. It’s a numbers game. It’s been my experience that women are more visual online than they are in real life simply due to the volume of messages allowing them the luxury of choosing on looks. which they usually do. As a man who isn’t 6 feet tall or otherwise conventionally attractive, I found online dating to be a uphill climb. Even nicely crafted messages rarely ever got traction. A lot of work and time for very few phone numbers, let alone dates. So I threw in the towel on it.

About the woman in this thread who reported 250 messages in her inbox in 1 day, I’ll bet there were at least 5, maybe 10 worthy men in there, maybe more. But I don’t blame her one bit for being so overwhelmed by the volume as to get away from it entirely. How does she narrow the pool down? She can’t, it’s just too much. And I said, even average women can get enough messages to be picky. What chance does an average man have? Get out the door is what I do …

Couldn’t agree more. As a guy who used online dating sites (both Catholic and otherwise) on and off for the past three years, I came to the conclusion that the uphill battle of online dating was so steep that it wasn’t worth my time to try and I threw in the towel as well.

 

[Sarcelle]

If there is no prospective spouse, then that is not “delaying marriage” as there is no marriage to delay.

Really, the increasing ages at marriage are more related to the now expected “dating and relationship games” than anything else, IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA

Mr. Mohler certainly did include those who have not found anyone to marry as part of the delaying marriage group. He did not correct Camerin Courtney when she did a rebuttal of his article and she assumed exactly that.

He actually castigated young men for not pursuing women. This definitely means he does include the ones who do not have a prospective spouse.

So if you are single and not dating anyone you are also delaying marriage and therefore sinning. The lack of a prospect may not be your will but you are still sinning. This is why this article of Mohler’s created quite a stir in the Evangelical world. A lot of singles were deeply hurt by this.

It did bring an unexpected blessing to me. I realized I would never be accepted as a true Christian in the Evangelical world because I am single. This propelled me to investigate Catholic teachings.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Practicing Catholic women may be more marriage minded and more cautious about dealing with strange men, both of which may make them less likely to go out with you.

I was Evangelical through nearly my entire single years and I never went out with anybody I didn’t know through friends or school or volunteering. It would never have occurred to me to talk to a strange man that was trying to get my attention, let alone go somewhere with him. On the other hand, I didn’t get asked out a lot but I think I literally never said no to an actual date.

So, a lot of the descriptions guys give of just chatting up total strangers in public kind of blow my mind. It doesn’t surprise me that that’s a hard way to go–it surprises me that anybody ever has any success with it.

One very important thing for men to remember is that safety is paramount for a normal, prudent woman when she’s talking to a guy she doesn’t know well. Somewhere in the back of her mind, she’s thinking, how likely is this person to rape and/or murder me? Because of that, it’s important when planning a date, to make sure that you don’t accidentally make her feel unsafe. I believe Zzyzx Road has mentioned taking women hiking as a first date. I’m actually surprised that that one works for him, as a lot of women would be squicked out by that one, unless they knew you or were very athletic. Going off in the woods with a strange man just sounds dumb to me. For the first couple dates, planning something in public where you’ll be around other people will be less worrisome to a cautious woman.

Do you have any suggestions about where a guy can meet and talk to a girl without coming across as creepy or threatening?

 

[Sarcelle]

Do you have any suggestions about where a guy can meet and talk to a girl without coming across as creepy or threatening?

How about volunteer activities such as Habitat for Humanity, the local animal shelter. Approach them like you would a coworker.

 

[rider2]

God has blessed you by having Faith, you are on the right track, stay on it and the joy you will feel down the road makes it all worth it. Faith is believing and uniting our suffering like chastity outside of marriage with the cross of Christ in reparation for our sins. I was outside the Church for 15 years and the great divide coming back was the decision you are struggling with, I can tell you this great struggle can make us holy. To be truly Catholic we must adhere to these rules of chastity, the world says it is impossible, but with daily Communion it’s actually not difficult if you guard what your eyes see and ears hear. If you remain faithful to God you will meet someone who will be attracted to your spirit of Christ going about your business, after all 32 is not old. We have to be involved and engaged in activities to meet people, sitting in front of a computer feeling sorry ourselves gets us nothing. Also making ourselves attractive by losing weight and dressing better helps. All those around you who are living lives of adultery and fornication have no joy in their hearts, that is why drug and alcohol abuse is so abundant, serious sin leads to great unhappiness. Listen to Fr. John Hardon on Chastity he tells it like it was, old school Catholicism.

therealpresence.org/archives/MP3/MP3.htm

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Why? People can develop self-control. If they love God enough, chastity will not be a problem for them.

I used to think that way… but now, I feel if you meet the ‘right one’, that whole chastity rule is going to go out the window…

If the whole purpose of marriage is to share yourself sexually with one other person, and if that other person is* the right one*, I have a hunch that keeping the two of them apart for very long is nearly impossible. I also think if you were to keep apart for very long, things could very well fizzle too… you may still love that person, but the passion has been squelched. Why would that be good if marriage is in your future??? I don’t believe in this idea that sexual passion is ‘bad’. That’s like some puritan belief that you can’t really find in the Bible. Read Song of Songs!

And I think a marriage should be that way- that there is that strong pull, strong desire and bond and I just don’t mean in lust- I mean that the whole package is there- sexual desire, friendship, mutual respect, shared ideals and goals, kinship, ect.

I believe that the right one (not talking soulmate stuff here as I believe there can be more than one person that you share this type of bond with) you are going to have a very difficult time remaining chaste. By saying this I"m not saying it doesn’t matter if they give in, but that its going to be extremely difficult…

… Hence, I despise all this delay on marriage where you have to have this and that to get started… I think it goes against nature. In the Bible, there are couples who meet and marry days later. There is no discussion on how independent and financially well off they are or how ‘ready’ they are to create a baby. These days, people co-habitate for years before they get married just because of this modern day concept… which as Xantippe pointed out so perfectly is a serious concern in that raising a family these days takes a lot of financial stability. Responsible people don’t want to be irresponsible, but time ticks away and no one is ever promised that financial stability will get better. Sometimes it gets worse.

I kind of feel that the reason why we are seeing the majority of couples live together for years isn’t because they are trying to be immoral, its because they are trying to make things work, they are trying to live life. Its sad. I actually hate it, hate seeing it, and hate it when people tell me they are living together, but I understand it.

I think part of the problem is that these days, the culture says that one must be independent and do everything themselves, whereas I believe in times past- like in Biblical days- the WHOLE family and village helped out. It wasn’t such that EVERYTHING was riding on your back alone.

 

[Bataar]

I guess you’re going to have to get to know more people, then.

(And by the way, I don’t think it’s unusual to be at a loss when figuring out how to strike up an acquaintance with a complete stranger. Average people don’t do a lot of that, either.)

In general, I was referring to small talk. It seems to be the conventional way of meeting people. In general, every person we meet is a stranger at some point. It doesn’t really help my situation. I’ve seen other people post in this thread suggesting that people (mainly guys) looking to meet others get involved with volunteer work. That generally wouldn’t help my situation because even if I did do that, and there was a woman there doing that, I wouldn’t know what to talk to her about. Maybe if she was wearing a Seattle Seahawks’ jersey or something that might open something up, but beyond that. . .

 

[Rose71]

There’s something deeply sick about today’s society that wants to reduce all behavior down to the lowest common denominator, under the pretext of ‘not offending anyone’.

In everyday life for the single Catholic over, say, 30 years old, it goes something like this…

Mrs. A: How’s your Jane doing, Mrs. B? ( yeah - we still talk like that in England!)

Mrs. B: She’s got a lovely boyfriend. They’ve just bought a house in ___shire together.

Mrs. A (not wishing to offend Mrs. B) How lovely!

Mrs. B: What about your John, is he seeing anyone?

Mrs. A: No, not at the moment.

Mrs. B: How old is he now? Isn’t it time he settled down?

You see - Mrs. A and Mrs. B are both Catholics, but Mrs. A doesn’t want to tell Mrs. B that living in sin is far from lovely. Mrs. B is actually mortified that Jane is living in sin, but justifies it to herself by presenting it as ‘the norm’ and (politely) suggests that poor old John is a bit of a player because he’s still single. In fact, John could well be waiting for Mrs. Right and their wedding night…

In other words, there is precious little support within the Catholic community for adults who are actively trying to live by the teachings of the Church.

I married at 42 and I was a virgin until our wedding night. I can’t pretend it was easy and there were times I was so depressed and cynical. However, I am so glad we did things properly because nobody can take that away from us: we had that complete trust that we would be okay on the wedding night because we had complete faith in one another. It’s given me confidence in myself and my DH that I never dreamed I would find.

Amazingly (haha) another ‘miracle’ occured in my parish! Ladies (mostly) who had never spoken to me before, suddenly smiled and said hello. People started asking my mum how I was doing again (because, having an un-married daughter over 40 was just soooo shameful and embrassing - far more so than a daughter who was living in sin, or married after living in sin / choosing IVF etc, etc)

I’d say to the OP - do hang in there. It’s extremely tough but the right woman will respect you for it (and she won’t hold your pre-Catholic past against you either) I don’t think you’ll find her via sites that filter by faith: you’re more likely to find someone you can really strike up a rapport with my just encountering her either via work, study or recreational pursuits and building up a friendship based on a mutual interest. If it’s meant to develop into anything more - it will. If not, you’ve got a genuine friend who knows you well enough to keep a lookout for ladies who might interest you.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

I’m beginning to see common themes both here and in this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=993286

lol… I noticed that too, but a lot of the same people are posting on this one are posting there too…

… not that I think there aren’t common themes and that there are really poignant points brought up. I’m enjoying both threads… seems like a lot of the posters have been spot on with what is going on today.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

There’s something deeply sick about today’s society that wants to reduce all behavior down to the lowest common denominator, under the pretext of ‘not offending anyone’.

In everyday life for the single Catholic over, say, 30 years old, it goes something like this…

Mrs. A: How’s your Jane doing, Mrs. B? ( yeah - we still talk like that in England!)

Mrs. B: She’s got a lovely boyfriend. They’ve just bought a house in ___shire together.

Mrs. A (not wishing to offend Mrs. B) How lovely!

Mrs. B: What about your John, is he seeing anyone?

Mrs. A: No, not at the moment.

Mrs. B: How old is he now? Isn’t it time he settled down?

You see - Mrs. A and Mrs. B are both Catholics, but Mrs. A doesn’t want to tell Mrs. B that living in sin is far from lovely. Mrs. B is actually mortified that Jane is living in sin, but justifies it to herself by presenting it as ‘the norm’ and (politely) suggests that poor old John is a bit of a player because he’s still single. In fact, John could well be waiting for Mrs. Right and their wedding night…

In other words, there is precious little support within the Catholic community for adults who are actively trying to live by the teachings of the Church.

…

You nailed it! That’s it!

 

[pianistclare]

There’s something deeply sick about today’s society that wants to reduce all behavior down to the lowest common denominator, under the pretext of ‘not offending anyone’.

In everyday life for the single Catholic over, say, 30 years old, it goes something like this…

Mrs. A: How’s your Jane doing, Mrs. B? ( yeah - we still talk like that in England!)

Mrs. B: She’s got a lovely boyfriend. They’ve just bought a house in ___shire together.

Mrs. A (not wishing to offend Mrs. B) How lovely!

Mrs. B: What about your John, is he seeing anyone?

Mrs. A: No, not at the moment.

Mrs. B: How old is he now? Isn’t it time he settled down?

You see - Mrs. A and Mrs. B are both Catholics, but Mrs. A doesn’t want to tell Mrs. B that living in sin is far from lovely. Mrs. B is actually mortified that Jane is living in sin, but justifies it to herself by presenting it as ‘the norm’ and (politely) suggests that poor old John is a bit of a player because he’s still single. In fact, John could well be waiting for Mrs. Right and their wedding night…

In other words, there is precious little support within the Catholic community for adults who are actively trying to live by the teachings of the Church.

I married at 42 and I was a virgin until our wedding night. I can’t pretend it was easy and there were times I was so depressed and cynical. However, I am so glad we did things properly because nobody can take that away from us: we had that complete trust that we would be okay on the wedding night because we had complete faith in one another. It’s given me confidence in myself and my DH that I never dreamed I would find.

Amazingly (haha) another ‘miracle’ occured in my parish! Ladies (mostly) who had never spoken to me before, suddenly smiled and said hello. People started asking my mum how I was doing again (because, having an un-married daughter over 40 was just soooo shameful and embrassing - far more so than a daughter who was living in sin, or married after living in sin / choosing IVF etc, etc)

I’d say to the OP - do hang in there. It’s extremely tough but the right woman will respect you for it (and she won’t hold your pre-Catholic past against you either) I don’t think you’ll find her via sites that filter by faith: you’re more likely to find someone you can really strike up a rapport with my just encountering her either via work, study or recreational pursuits and building up a friendship based on a mutual interest. If it’s meant to develop into anything more - it will. If not, you’ve got a genuine friend who knows you well enough to keep a lookout for ladies who might interest you.

That happens a lot in the U.S. as well.
People feel like they have to approve of their children’s *choices *and their friends children’s choices NO MATTER WHAT.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

That happens a lot in the U.S. as well.
People feel like they have to approve of their children’s *choices *and their friends children’s choices NO MATTER WHAT.

I’m not sure that’s it. In the hypothetical presented, the two women were making small talk. If one person said their child moved in with a significant other, and the second person responds with harsh condemnation, what’s the point? Is bashing someone’s children’s choices conducive to anything? Or would it just hurt the relationship and any chance of small talk in the future? I know that regardless of my mother’s opinions, she would never let someone complain about my choices or my brother’s to her while she smiled politely in agreement.

I would never want to talk to people who were interested in going back and forth on the moral choices of our adult children.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Do you have any suggestions about where a guy can meet and talk to a girl without coming across as creepy or threatening?

I’m glad you asked this… because I think this also is part of the problem (not that guys are the problem, but that factor is key in the reason why so many are having difficulties)

As a woman, I don’t even know of any suggestions other than just go out and join some group to meet others… But that’s not easy either… I’ve tried that as well and it seems with every group I try, the men are all married, or usually there are no men at all.

There’s also the fact that men and women like to do different activities. If you aren’t a sporty girl, you shouldn’t have to pretend to be into sports and join a group… same with the opposite sceario.

Its true that a woman has to watch out for herself. I was chatted up in the grocery store by a very handsome man that I would have loved to have had the chance to get to know him better, but the initial conversation just kind of fizzled and it was too awkward to proceed anywhere with it… plus, I don’t know what he could have said or done that would not have put that natural female ‘on guard’ fear to rest… Its just there. He wasn’t creepy at all, but that I just didn’t know him. There might be attraction, but he’s still a stranger. The only thing I could have come up with where it could have proceeded is if he asked if I wanted to go sit down and have a drink at the grocery store’s cafe. But even that is very awkward after someone asks you a quirky but fun question about shampoo. Even so, then what after that if we did sit down and talk? I** still **would have no clue about this guy. I don’t have any connections to reassure me that he’s a decent fellow. He probably most likely is, but I’m not going to have the ability to be myself around him until I know much more about him.

 

[pianistclare]

I’m not sure that’s it. In the hypothetical presented, the two women were making small talk. If one person said their child moved in with a significant other, and the second person responds with harsh condemnation, what’s the point? Is bashing someone’s children’s choices conducive to anything? Or would it just hurt the relationship and any chance of small talk in the future? I know that regardless of my mother’s opinions, she would never let someone complain about my choices or my brother’s to her while she smiled politely in agreement.

I would never want to talk to people who were interested in going back and forth on the moral choices of our adult children.

I wasn’t condoning it, I was just saying that people feel the need to justify the actions of their family members in passive aggressive sort of ways.

 

[Xantippe]

Do you have any suggestions about where a guy can meet and talk to a girl without coming across as creepy or threatening?

There’s more to it than WHERE.

I hesitate to give any advice, without knowing what the guy looks like, his level of grooming and hygiene, his body language, whether he interrupts a lot, corners women, monologues, etc., etc.

I can think of one young male CAFer whose photograph I’ve seen and I immediately wanted to burn his entire wardrobe just from seeing the one photo (nobody in this thread!). It’s possible to shoot yourself in both feet without even saying a word.

PSA: Unless you are over 25, DO NOT ATTEMPT A MUSTACHE.

Edited to add: My husband is a reasonably good looking guy, but when he was in his late teens, he had a bit of a mustache. It was a sad little thing. He could probably wear one now and do OK, but teen mustaches are almost always unsightly.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

PSA: Unless you are over 25, DO NOT ATTEMPT A MUSTACHE.

Correction: 45

 

[Xantippe]

Correction: 45

And, ideally, a cop.