"Life Teen" Liturgy and it's destruction of centuries of Holy Tradition

[Topher]

Servus Pio XII:

Toss out that rubbish about Gregorian Chant being a medieval thing. Or that about Mozart. You see, up until now, Gregorian Chant was always used in the Mass. Why? I’ll let you in on a secret:

It’s been around since apostolic times!

That is right. It is a Latin form of the mode in which the Jews prayed the psalms. In which Jesus prayed the psalms.

It is as close as you can come to praying a Jesus and His apostles prayed.

The medieval thing is all a Protestant myth, which was adopted by “progressive Catholics”.

Are you joking or are you serious. I was a music major in college and guess what. Gregorian Chant did not come into play until after the fall of Rome. That is not an apostolic thing. I guess since gregorian chant is so superior, that must have been what was used in the Old Testament times too. Oh wait, the bible does not agree with that. Read Psalms. The Psalms were quite often written to be used with instruments.

 

[Topher]

palmas85:

I’ll take a stab at it. Many people, myself included, believe that the Mass is a solemn prayerful event in which we recall the sacrifice that Christ Jesus made for us by dying that lingering, painful death on the cross. It is the sacrifice that is primary and the celebration of the Lords Supper secondary. So by that measure, music that is shall we say less then reverent is inappropriate. For instance, I love Soca music from Trinidad as well as old style Calypso. Wonderful music, contagious beats and a whole lot of fun. Great for parties. Not so good at something as solemn as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I also enjoy Bounce Rap. Little Wayne ,Juvenile etc. Great stuff, edgy, maybe a little heavy on the gangster side, but good at parties and clubs. I wouldn’t think it would fit in at Mass however.

While I am no fan of Gregorian Chant by and large, it does have a solemn dignity and reverence that most, not all, modern music seriously lacks. Some of the music at Life Teen Masses or regular Masses for that matter is fine. Others, push the envelope and others cross the line.

All too often we think that the Mass is for our enjoyment and our edification. It is sometimes good to remember that the Mass is the bloodless recreation of the sacrifice and death of our Lord and Saviour, Christ Jesus at Calvary, and it really deserves more dignity and respect then it is sometimes given…

What makes gregorian chant more dignified than modern worship music? Sounds like you are basing your entire thesis on personal preference.

 

[Topher]

MrS:

Might you consider rewording this?

It sounds like: “Do you preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ “or” the Gospel of the Catholic Church?”

The solemn, quiet, reverent manner is an innermost, heartfelt, cause for joy.

But so is the Joy “Shouts to the Lord” as the scriptures put it. So is King David’s dancing before the arc (don’t worry I am not advocating liturgical dance). Joy can be expressed in this way as well.

 

[Topher]

twiztedseraph:

Don’t remind me. And don’t even let me get started on the problems a “rock” mass presents to one’s spirituality.

Right, because modern worship music is coming to steal our souls. Look out. Rock is the devil’s music. OOOOOOO. Here it comes. Rock will single handedly stop Jesus from becoming present in the Eucharist and he will rain his wrath down upon us for playing modern worship music. It is all over. The church is coming to an end. AHHHHHHHHHH!!!
By the way, modern worship music is a far cry from rock.

 

[netmilsmom]

Topher:

And don’t press an abuse button just because some one has strong opions…

Who exactly do you think you are? You are not my father, my husband, my boss nor my spiritual advisor. Don’t presume that you have any right to tell me what I may or may not do, especially when you started personally insulting me out of the context of this discussion.

I would not press an abuse button because you have strong opinions but rather because of your statement…
you were more concerned with gregorian chant than with Christ.

Stating that I am more concerned with music than Christ is unwarranted and highly insulting.
Get it?

 

[Topher]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Who exactly do you think you are? You are not my father, my husband, my boss nor my spiritual advisor. Don’t presume that you have any right to tell me what I may or may not do, especially when you started personally insulting me out of the context of this discussion.

I would not press an abuse button because you have strong opinions but rather because of your statement…
you were more concerned with gregorian chant than with Christ.

Stating that I am more concerned with music than Christ is unwarranted and highly insulting.
Get it?

I wasn’t forcing you to do anything. Maybe I should have reworded it as a suggestion to avoid hurting anyone’s feelings. Seems like alot of people around here get hurt real easy. Anyway, I could equally say that you have insulted me. You told me to come back when I have my own kids. As if I am stupid and ignorant simply because I do not have kids yet. That is profoundly presumptuous and insluting. I am a very intelligent man in my twenties. I am very grounded in my faith and in charity. I am responsible person (I am a high school teacher) and I can observe the world around me and make intelligent observations whether or not I have had children. But notice I did not get hurt originally by this statement of yours and said nothing about it because I do not believe in being over emotional about things. I believe that argument is a rational one. Yes, i might use a witty (is that how you spell that?) come back but only to make a point. I take none of this personal and I do not believe that anyone else should.
And it does appear like ultra trads care more about music than Christ because they attack a good orthodox Catholic organization that is leading teens to Jesus Christ simply because the ultra trads don’t like the music. I am sorry, i prefer gregorian chant too, but I am more concerned about leading teens to Christ than I am about my musical preferences. And guess what. The Life Teen program has been very fruitful in leading teenager to Jesus. That is where our hearts should be. In leading people to our Lord and Saviour.
And by the way. You don’t have to ask if I get it. I have a bacherlor’s degree in Mathematics. I am intelligent enough to understand your posts, even if you are wrong.

 

[Peter_Wright]

Thread drifting into personal bickering. Please get back on track or we’ll have to close it. Thanks.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Are you joking or are you serious. I was a music major in college and guess what. Gregorian Chant did not come into play until after the fall of Rome. That is not an apostolic thing. I guess since gregorian chant is so superior, that must have been what was used in the Old Testament times too. Oh wait, the bible does not agree with that. Read Psalms. The Psalms were quite often written to be used with instruments.

sigh

No, GREGORIAN chant is the adaptation of a more ancient form of prayer used by the Hebrews. It was instituted as the official chant of the Church under Pope Gregory the Great, however, it had been used prior to that for some time.

So, in re it only was adopted by the Church after the fall of Rome. In se it is much older and more apostolic.

Couple that with the fact that it was made to oppose the pagan worship, which featured a conjugation of instruments and dancing. It was supposed to move that Church as far away from using pagan forms of worship as possible.

 

[oat_soda]

First, you seem to believe that classical music and greagorian chant are INTRINSICALLY superior to contemporary music. That is simply absurd. They are nothing more than types of music from two different times in history.

you are misinformed. gregorian chant is the best music for mass. it says so in sacrosactum concilium and St. Pius X wrote extensively about how the more the music sounds like gregorian chant, the better it is.

the fact is while rock music may be religious, it isn’t sacred. this isn’t a subjective measure but an objective one already made by the church. even B16 made a distinction in his book the spirit of the liturgy.

…Gregorian Chant, which is, consequently the Chant proper to the Roman Church, the only chant she has inherited from the ancient fathers, which she has jealously guarded for centuries in her liturgical codices, which she directly proposes to the faithful as her own, which she prescribes exclusively for some parts of the liturgy, and which the most recent studies have so happily restored to their integrity and purity.

On these grounds Gregorian Chant has always been regarded as the suprememodel for sacred music, so that it is fully legitimate to lay down thefollowing rule: the more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savor the Gregorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.

 

[Michael_Welter]

oat soda,

While your point has been well made, and replicates the same point made earlier in this thread, note that it is not dogma, and that Catholics are not bound to accept it. No one is arguing that Gregorian Chant isn’t beautiful and reverent. However, it doesn’t draw me into worship. Neither does “rock” music. But contemporary praise and worship music does. It’s more important that I worship reverently than it is that I be forced to attend a Mass with Gregorian Chant.

 

[MrS]

Michael Welter:

oat soda,

While your point has been well made, and replicates the same point made earlier in this thread, note that it is not dogma, and that Catholics are not bound to accept it. No one is arguing that Gregorian Chant isn’t beautiful and reverent. However, it doesn’t draw me into worship. Neither does “rock” music. But contemporary praise and worship music does. It’s more important that I worship reverently than it is that I be forced to attend a Mass with Gregorian Chant.

It is more important that we worship God reverently :yup:

…than it is that I be forced to attend Mass (worship God) in a way I don’t want to

May I never see the day when I am forced to attend Mass.

And as long as I try to come to Christ on His terms, I hope to always be priviledged to attend a Mass that is all about HIM, and not about hymns.

 

[mjt]

being in my mid 20’s i can appreciate what some are trying to do, simply getting teens to Mass. However, i am of the opinion that what gets them must keep them. I reverted because of the Eucharist. What happens when kids, who don’t know their faith as well as they could or should, go to their friends church service with the same music and the sermon is better? Contemporary music should be a bonus, not the main dish. I do like the songs, if played with reverance AND appropriate volume. There in lies the rub.

p.s. Outside of Mass they can crank it up!!
mid 20s conformation teacher, just a thought.

 

[Psalm45_9]

mjt:

being in my mid 20’s i can appreciate what some are trying to do, simply getting teens to Mass. However, i am of the opinion that what gets them must keep them. I reverted because of the Eucharist. What happens when kids, who don’t know their faith as well as they could or should, go to their friends church service with the same music and the sermon is better? Contemporary music should be a bonus, not the main dish. I do like the songs, if played with reverance AND appropriate volume. There in lies the rub.

p.s. Outside of Mass they can crank it up!!
mid 20s conformation teacher, just a thought.

Early 20s, Catholic Revert (without the aid of Lifeteen), and RCIA instructor here.

 

[Topher]

sigh

No, GREGORIAN chant is the adaptation of a more ancient form of prayer used by the Hebrews. It was instituted as the official chant of the Church under Pope Gregory the Great, however, it had been used prior to that for some time.

So, in re it only was adopted by the Church after the fall of Rome. In se it is much older and more apostolic.

Couple that with the fact that it was made to oppose the pagan worship, which featured a conjugation of instruments and dancing. It was supposed to move that Church as far away from using pagan forms of worship as possible.

I doubt your historical accuracy on this matter, but the Church still has no problem with using instruments in music. And by the way, Gregorian chant is just as suseptible to the problems that you relate to other forms of music. It has a very ‘esoteric’ sound that is suseptible to fals extacies and trances. And, since it is sort of “novel” in our culture, people may be suseptible to only paying attention to it novility and not to the worship of God in mass. It may be more distracting than modern worship music.

 

[Topher]

oat soda:

you are misinformed. gregorian chant is the best music for mass. it says so in sacrosactum concilium and St. Pius X wrote extensively about how the more the music sounds like gregorian chant, the better it is.

the fact is while rock music may be religious, it isn’t sacred. this isn’t a subjective measure but an objective one already made by the church. even B16 made a distinction in his book the spirit of the liturgy.

You must remember that this document is imposed by the Church and not as a matter of divine revelation. Sacred Dorctrine (Sacra Doctrina) or divine revelation teach nothing about the intrinsic superiority of gregorian chant. It is the opion of church leaders that it is superior but I do not agree with that opioion. That being said, the church does no prohibit the use of other forms of worship music. And yes other forms are sacred and can be called so because they are aimed at the worship of the Triune God. I gotta tell you guys that I used to be more of a Tradionalist when it came to music but hearing your arguments has pushed me more towards a centrist position with regaurd to music.

 

[Topher]

MrS:

It is more important that we worship God reverently :yup:

…than it is that I be forced to attend Mass (worship God) in a way I don’t want to

May I never see the day when I am forced to attend Mass.

And as long as I try to come to Christ on His terms, I hope to always be priviledged to attend a Mass that is all about HIM, and not about hymns.

Exactly. and that is why this whole arguement about different forms of worship music being “bad” is silly. It is always about Jesus and not personal musical preferences. If you like gregorian chant. If you like modern SACRED music, and yes I mean life teen music, then fine. As long as you are reverent.

 

[Topher]

mjt:

being in my mid 20’s i can appreciate what some are trying to do, simply getting teens to Mass. However, i am of the opinion that what gets them must keep them. I reverted because of the Eucharist. What happens when kids, who don’t know their faith as well as they could or should, go to their friends church service with the same music and the sermon is better? Contemporary music should be a bonus, not the main dish. I do like the songs, if played with reverance AND appropriate volume. There in lies the rub.

p.s. Outside of Mass they can crank it up!!
mid 20s conformation teacher, just a thought.

And the great thing about Life Teen is that it is very orthodox and helps teenagers to really learn about the true teachings of the Church. I have never seen such orthodox teenagers as the ones that come out of my Church’s life teen program.

 

[Topher]

Early 20s, Catholic Revert (without the aid of Lifeteen), and RCIA instructor here.

Good for you. But that does not invalidate life teen. You may have done it without life teen but no one is arguing that life teen itself is intrinsicly necessary. What we are saying is that it is good and orthodox and very effective at brining teens to Christ and his Church.

 

[oat_soda]

it doesn’t draw me into worship. Neither does “rock” music. But contemporary praise and worship music does. It’s more important that I worship reverently than it is that I be forced to attend a Mass with Gregorian Chant.

if you believe that something beautiful is good, and that goodness is not subjective, then you must accept that certain forms of music and art are not fitting for worshiping God. this point has been made more or less in countless documents concerning the liturgy. but it really comes down to the apostolic origin of gregorian chant. all apostolic churches use some form of chant. this means they have their origins in the apostles. we follow one holy and apostolic faith, not on holy modern faith.

 

[Topher]

oat soda:

if you believe that something beautiful is good, and that goodness is not subjective, then you must accept that certain forms of music and art are not fitting for worshiping God. this point has been made more or less in countless documents concerning the liturgy. but it really comes down to the apostolic origin of gregorian chant. all apostolic churches use some form of chant. this means they have their origins in the apostles. we follow one holy and apostolic faith, not on holy modern faith.

I have often heard people use this arguement alot: “Well the early church did it this way so it must be right”. There is one main flaw in that argument: This is not the early Chruch. While our doctines remain the same because truth is truth, practices change over time. We may be the same body as the early Chruch but we have changed and grown, just I am not the same as I was at 12 years old. There are alot of things that we don’t do now that were done during the apostolic times. We no longer have public confessions, confession is aloud more than once in our life time, we don’t pray in the orens position at mass anymore, we have developed the teachings of the Church in a way that they were not developed at that time, bishops are no longer elected by the people but appointed, during the confiteor those in mortal sin no longer grasp at the feet of those in the state of grace, etc. Arguing that a practice is old does not validate the modern use of such practice. And, if we really want to be true to apostolic times, we would have to throw out the Tridentine Rite and the Novus Ordo. We would have to retrun to the same liturgy as the ones that we find in the writtings of the early chruch fathers. But we don’t do that because the Tridentine rite developed past that. So if music in chuch develops and changes, then so be it. Christ is more impressed with a humble and contrite soul than with the style of music that you like.