"Life Teen" Liturgy and it's destruction of centuries of Holy Tradition

[Psalm45_9]

Topher:

Good for you. Not everyone is called to youth ministry. I am and thanks be to God, the LORD has used me as fruitfully as his unwrothy tool in this ministry. You have been called to instruct adults in RCIA. That is wonderful.

Accept for the fact that I have been labled a stick in the mud. The last Youth Conference I went to (Father J, from lifeteen.com was there), I was singled out. One of the chaperons actually picked up my hands in the air and started forcing me to clap. When I said that I do not worship like that a seminarian in our group said that I should open myself up, try starting by holding up my hands. I insisted that I do not worship like that, that is not how I experince God; basically let me be. They were under the impression that I was not experiencing Jesus, I was. This further drove me away from being interested in youth ministry.

 

[Prometheum_x]

Psalm45:9:

Accept for the fact that I have been labled a stick in the mud. The last Youth Conference I went to (Father J, from lifeteen.com was there), I was singled out. One of the chaperons actually picked up my hands in the air and started forcing me to clap. When I said that I do not worship like that a seminarian in our group said that I should open myself up, try starting by holding up my hands. I insisted that I do not worship like that, that is not how I experince God; basically let me be. They were under the impression that I was not experiencing Jesus, I was. This further drove me away from being interested in youth ministry.

I am very sorry that this has happened to you. This should not happen, no matter what sort of group, music, philosophy, etc.

 

[netmilsmom]

Topher:

I mention gregorian chant because you seem to have a problem with modern worship music, (God knows why because no one has presented a well thought out and intelligent reason for rejecting modern worship music) and gregorian chant is the alternative. Futhermore, that is was Ultra tradionalist almost universially demand. It is almost as if they believe that the consecreation of the Eucharist is impossible without it.

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Being the mother of two school age children in a very traditional parish, I can tell you that the children expect what we give them.

If we do a “Sunday School” like Children’s Liturgy of the Word and treat them like kiddies who need to be entertained that is what they will expect. They will not look at us and strive to be adults in our church but rather as perpetual children.

That being said, if you could hear my five year old sing “O Sanctissima” with her choir, it would bring tears to your eyes.

Much better than “We all need a little Salt, need a little light.” with hand motions.

netmil(name removed by moderator):

However, we sing lots of new songs, just not at Holy Mass.

You should have heard the CD for our K for J Summertime Blast (VBS).
We still jam to that one in our car!

Oh I get why you are so hostile! You have mistaken me for one of the other posters who is against modern praise music. I love modern praise music! We listen to it all the time!
So that’s the reason why you came in immediately with the Ultra-Traditionalist deal.
Really. I just got a new Michael Talbot CD. It’s great!
In our church it’s just not appropriate at Mass. We take it where it is, after litugy activities.

 

[Prometheum_x]

Gregorian chant was derived from plain chant, which was at least in part derived from Jewish liturgical music. . .

. . . which was derived from the religious music of the Mesopotamian region. Jewish liturgical music was not handed down out of heaven or discovered on gold plates buried in the ground.

The music of the Church has always evolved hand in hand with the music of its time, and in fact religious music has been a major factor in the general evolution of music.

This is not to say that all forms are equally appropriate. However, this is not dependent on chronology but on the interplay between secular and sacred usage.

The organ was virutally unused for centuries in the Church due to its strong pagan ties. And now, as an instrument, it is esteemed by the Latin rite. But even there, not all forms of organ music have been historically considered appropriate, due to their primary association with other secular things, such as the theater.

My contention is that the primary factor in determining acceptability is an instrument or form’s association with either the secular or sacred, in terms of usage.

Only rarely have I seen any discussion of the inherent qualities of a particular instrument or form and whether those qualities have any bearing in and of themselves in whether they may be used for the Liturgy. When they are, it is usually just a verbose way of reiterating the opinion that it is or isn’t appropriate. Most evidence that is presented is anecdotal.

Perhaps it is too easy to simply mention in distaste “the organ” and conjure up an image of a nearly dead old lady playing funeral dirge music. Or to mention in distaste “the electric guitar” and conjure up an image of a tripped out rocker with wild hair, tattoos, and body piercings. In both cases, we are simply not bothering to actually ask why such and such an instrument is in and of itself more or less appropriate to the liturgy.

But then, it is much easier to react than to reflect.

 

[Topher]

Psalm45:9:

Accept for the fact that I have been labled a stick in the mud. The last Youth Conference I went to (Father J, from lifeteen.com was there), I was singled out. One of the chaperons actually picked up my hands in the air and started forcing me to clap. When I said that I do not worship like that a seminarian in our group said that I should open myself up, try starting by holding up my hands. I insisted that I do not worship like that, that is not how I experince God; basically let me be. They were under the impression that I was not experiencing Jesus, I was. This further drove me away from being interested in youth ministry.

I am sorry that that happened to you. Just like utlra traditionalist like to force their style on everyone else, so can other groups like those involved in youth ministry. The group that I have noticed that can be most guilty of this is the Charismatic group. They often think that if you are not mumbling some unintelligible syllables, then you are not experiencing Christ. I don’t think you are a stick in the mud at all.

 

[palmas85]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I’d like to know why some of the posters here are stuck on Gregorian Chant. I never even mentioned it and was told that I prefer it over Christ.

I’ve had the same thing done to me… I had never even mentioned Gregorian Chant in my posts and was really unloaded on. I get the feeling some people don’t even read the posts. They assume that if you have traditional views, you know rad trads or ultra trads or ut’s or whatever else they call us, are automatically against their positions and act accordingly. I always posted about the Mass itself and the liturgies involved.

 

[Topher]

palmas85:

I’ve had the same thing done to me… I had never even mentioned Gregorian Chant in my posts and was really unloaded on. I get the feeling some people don’t even read the posts. They assume that if you have traditional views, you know rad trads or ultra trads or ut’s or whatever else they call us, are automatically against their positions and act accordingly. I always posted about the Mass itself and the liturgies involved.

Then what possibly be your problem with the Life Teen Mass if it is not the music. The Life Teen Mass at my church is identicle to all the other masses, except that we use modern worship music.

 

[palmas85]

Psalm45:9:

Accept for the fact that I have been labled a stick in the mud. The last Youth Conference I went to (Father J, from lifeteen.com was there), I was singled out. One of the chaperons actually picked up my hands in the air and started forcing me to clap. When I said that I do not worship like that a seminarian in our group said that I should open myself up, try starting by holding up my hands. I insisted that I do not worship like that, that is not how I experince God; basically let me be. They were under the impression that I was not experiencing Jesus, I was. This further drove me away from being interested in youth ministry.

These attitudes are very prevalent in Protestant Pentecostal churches where you allegedly cannot feel the Spirit unless you lift your arms, heart and voice up to God in praise. Yes, I’ve been to some of them, so don’t say it isn’t true. They are very vocal and committed to this… I am sorry that their beliefs have managed to make their way into the Church.

 

[Michael_Welter]

There have been several people who posted in this topic, showing writings that call Gregorian Chant the “preferred” music for Mass. That’s why I brought up Gregorian Chant. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that all people with traditional views were stating that Gregorian Chant is the only music that should be used at Mass. If I gave that impression, I appologize.

 

[Michael_Welter]

palmas85:

These attitudes are very prevalent in Protestant Pentecostal churches where you allegedly cannot feel the Spirit unless you lift your arms, heart and voice up to God in praise. Yes, I’ve been to some of them, so don’t say it isn’t true. They are very vocal and committed to this… I am sorry that their beliefs have managed to make their way into the Church.

I’ve seen this, too. I’ve probably been guilty of it in my earlier years. I agree that it’s not appropriate. Not everyone meets God in the same way. We should respect each other’s individuality.

 

[vluvski]

I have tried to keep my responses general. If my posts have offended anyone, I’m sorry!

I think the title of the thread had a number of us ‘on guard’ and feeling rather defensive before reading any posts. To claim that Life Teen is destroying centuries of Holy Tradition is quite unfair. Indeed, the liturgy as we know it now is younger than many people who are still alive.

I see merit in the Latin Mass and in a Life Teen Mass; in traditional music and modern music. They serve very different purposes, but are aimed at reaching a common end: greater respect for the teachings of the Church, reverence for the Eucharist, and love for the rich history and T/tradition of our faith. I hope more people will come to recognize that before wildly discounting any group.

For those of you who have been misunderstood at youth events, I am sorry. Both sides have certainly been guilty of assuming only their method of worship is valid. There is much ground to be covered by all parties.

 

[palmas85]

Topher:

Then what possibly be your problem with the Life Teen Mass if it is not the music. The Life Teen Mass at my church is identicle to all the other masses, except that we use modern worship music.

Having never been to your church, I cannot comment on it. But I was raised as a Catholic, and believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church. When I go to Mass, I don’t expect to be attending a Charismatic Pentecostal gathering, which many teen masses, at least here in San Diego have become. Yes, I agree those services can be very emotional, make you cry and shiver and shake and feel tingles all through your body, So you must be in the presence of of the Spirit right? Halelujah brother!!!.

Well, you can feel the exact same thing at a rave or a disco with a loud sound system. Or at a Haitian Voodoo Ceremony or at a Santeria gathering for that matter. The music, particularly the drumming and handclapping invokes a strong emotional response in most people. It is a perfectly natural reaction nothing more and nothing less. Musicians know this and have used it effectively for years to pull people deeper into the music. It is a wonderful thing. I like it. It is not the Holy Spirit though.

I will repeat, I don’t think the Catholic Church needs to lower itself to using these Protestant gimmicks to get people through the doors. The Protestants, on the other hand, have to because they don’t have the truth on their side, and have to have a hook of some kind to hold on to their people.

 

[netmilsmom]

palmas85:

I’ve had the same thing done to me… I had never even mentioned Gregorian Chant in my posts and was really unloaded on. I get the feeling some people don’t even read the posts. They assume that if you have traditional views, you know rad trads or ultra trads or ut’s or whatever else they call us, are automatically against their positions and act accordingly. I always posted about the Mass itself and the liturgies involved.

I take the Ultra-Trad title as long as it actually defines what I am.
I thought that this was the people who wanted to go back to Vatican II.

I just want the NO done the way it was suppose to be.

On a side note, how many Chastity shirts do you see at a Life Teen mass? Just curious. One of our older girls said that she stopped going to these masses. The boys were only there because the girls were more open sexually. When they got a conquest, they stopped going until they wanted another. Also she said that there weren’t that many teens there. They were mostly older adults (like in their 50’s) and people in their 20s. Is this just in our area?

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

On a side note, how many Chastity shirts do you see at a Life Teen mass? Just curious.

I’m not sure what this has to do with anything, but I’ve seen as many at Life Teen as I’ve seen at any other Mass. Just as the chastity rings and ceremonies, I would see that more as a function of a particular Church promoting them than as a function of which Mass you see them at. I’ve seen them the most at Youth Retreats where the music is almost exclusively contemporary.

One of our older girls said that she stopped going to these masses. The boys were only there because the girls were more open sexually. When they got a conquest, they stopped going until they wanted another. Also she said that there weren’t that many teens there.

I suppose this could happen anywhere, but I’ve never heard any such thing and I can’t imagine it being anything but the exception. Most of the girls (and guys) I’ve seen at these Masses and the Youth Retreats are very modest and very orthodox. I’m sure there are exceptions, as there are within the Catholic population at large.

They were mostly older adults (like in their 50’s) and people in their 20s. Is this just in our area?

The ones I’ve seen were mixed, especially if the teen group was in the younger range where transportation became an issue. I personally enjoy it once in a while but wouldn’t make a steady diet of it. I don’t think the music generally appeals to the older crowd but some will certainly appreciate it more than others. I’ve seldom seen large numbers of over-50’s in attendance unless there was something special going on.

As to the 20’s, in my experience, yes you will see varying numbers, again depending on what the local demographics are and what the alternatives are.

As I said earlier, I think God has lots of lures in his tackle box to get us to “bite.” Keeping legitimate, reverent alternatives open shouldn’t really be a problem to anyone. As with many of these “preference” options, the key is charity from both sides. Nobody should be trying to force their personal preferences on another or trying to deny someone else’s legitimate preferences.

Peace,

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

I’m not sure what this has to do with anything, but

Well if the kids wearing Chastity t-shirts and rings are as rabid about it as the kids in my church, it would state that this girl’s experience is an exception rather than the rule.

 

[vluvski]

ncjohn:

…
As I said earlier, I think God has lots of lures in his tackle box to get us to “bite.” Keeping legitimate, reverent alternatives open shouldn’t really be a problem to anyone. As with many of these “preference” options, the key is charity from both sides. Nobody should be trying to force their personal preferences on another or trying to deny someone else’s legitimate preferences.

Peace,

Thanks for your post ncjohn, well said.

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Well if the kids wearing Chastity t-shirts and rings are as rabid about it as the kids in my church, it would state that this girl’s experience is an exception rather than the rule.

I kind of figured that’s what you were saying, which is why I answered the way I did. The chastity promotion is spotty at best and takes different forms in diffrernt places. My daughter for example took it upon herself to do a ceremony after church, with the ring and the pledge. I have no idea where she heard about it as it is not common in our area and I’ve never seen it promoted. I think it’s as likely that she got the idea from one of her protestant friends as anything else. I’ll have to ask her that though as now you’ve got my curiosity up.

I would agree that the presence of the t-shirts or rings would be a positive indication, but I don’t think that the absence of them indicates anything in and of itself.

Peace,

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I doubt your historical accuracy on this matter, but the Church still has no problem with using instruments in music. And by the way, Gregorian chant is just as suseptible to the problems that you relate to other forms of music. It has a very ‘esoteric’ sound that is suseptible to fals extacies and trances. And, since it is sort of “novel” in our culture, people may be suseptible to only paying attention to it novility and not to the worship of God in mass. It may be more distracting than modern worship music.

Firstly, it shouldn’t be “novel”. Unfortunately, it is. I asked my blasted YOUTH DIRECTOR if she liked Gregorian Chant, and she said, well she had heard some people chanting ‘Jesus’ over and over, and if that was what I was talking about.

Then I related it to some fellows in my CATHOLIC school, and they said they had no idea what it was, but did I like Praise and Worship music.

Secondly, the Eucharist is the Mass, and the Mass is the Eucharist. It is not at all likely that people who are dancing and singing and clapping in worse fervor than the Baptists are likely to believe that the music is not the centre of the Mass. Personally, I believe the chant to be the only sort of music which cannot engage the listener in anything other than devout reverance, as it cannot be sung easily by the congregants, cannot be danced to, and is in LATIN. Therefore, they must be focused on the EUCHARIST, not on the “liturgy”.

Finally, I don’t care how much you doubt the historical accuracy. Ask any Jewish historian what the prayers of the apostles sounded like, and I guarantee he will tell you that:

a) It sounds like Gregorian Chant and…
b) We got it from them.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Prometheum_x:

I am very sorry that this has happened to you. This should not happen, no matter what sort of group, music, philosophy, etc.

Thank you and while I do not hold lifeteen in itself as being responsible for this; the mentality I found expressed at the youth conference was that if you weren’t like everyone else you’re not experiencing Christ.

 

[Prometheum_x]

Servus Pio XII:

Secondly, the Eucharist is the Mass, and the Mass is the Eucharist. It is not at all likely that people who are dancing and singing and clapping in worse fervor than the Baptists are likely to believe that the music is not the centre of the Mass. Personally, I believe the chant to be the only sort of music which cannot engage the listener in anything other than devout reverance, as it cannot be sung easily by the congregants, cannot be danced to, and is in LATIN. Therefore, they must be focused on the EUCHARIST, not on the “liturgy”.

Finally, I don’t care how much you doubt the historical accuracy. Ask any Jewish historian what the prayers of the apostles sounded like, and I guarantee he will tell you that:

a) It sounds like Gregorian Chant and…
b) We got it from them.

I admire your passion, and I have some questions:

First, where did the Jews get their music?

Second: What, *exactly, *is “devout reverence”? Please define this phrase.

Third, why did you put “liturgy” in quotes?

Fourth, can you explain how the use of Latin makes a song more conducive to “devout reverence”? This is a question about the nature of Latin itself, not whether or not Latin is the official language of the Church and should be used more often.

Fifth, can you explain how being difficult to sing for the congregation makes a song more conducive to “devout reverence”?

Sixth, are you not aware that their are two parts to the Liturgy we call Mass: the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist? We need them both.