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SpiritMeadow
Guest
**Phrases that are obviously false as well as meaningless do not further discussions. It helps if your two examples are rationally analogous. **
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Filius99993
Guest
…HIV is a terrible thing, but it can easily be avoided with abstinence, just as being shot at by children can be avoided by not allowing them to play with guns, which kill more people than HIV does. So, it’s an analogy, but it’s not FALSE.
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
Only by twisting it and having to explain it…so I would say, no it does not serve a good argumentative purpose. Many diseases can be avoided by abstinence, that hardly addresses the problem. Most people are not going to remain celibate, because they do not agree with the Catholic Church’s position on this. So it seems the humane thing to do is to offer folks as much protection against disease as possible. They are not doing anything illegal, and frankly most people think Catholic thinking on this issue is simply uncompassionate and a refusal to respond to serious health issues. I can respect anyone’s desire to live their own life a certain way, and instruct their children, but to try shrug your shoulders at the majority of citizens and say its alright to impose your belief upon them is hardly right. And I don’t think the church teaches anything like this.
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Filius99993
Guest
The Church can’t impose its laws on other people anyway. But as Catholics we are called to be abstinent. LEGALITIES have NOTHING to do with morality. To suppose that all government policies are moral also skewers the debate to one side. Just because some people are not abstinent doesn’t mean that the Catholic Church should embrace their sins. If people muck themselves up, well, then they should have listened. It’s not like they weren’t warned.
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KarenNC
Guest
Accepting or rejecting federal funding for abstinence-only sex education in the public schools has absolutely nothing to do with what the Catholic Church should or should not embrace. The Catholic Church is free to teach any and everything that it so desires in its own religious education programs and its own schools. Catholic parents are free to teach any and everything that they so desire to their own children.
US government policies and laws are not predicated upon the laws or teachings of the Catholic Church or that of any other church or any other religion.
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
I think your mistaken, many of the policies and laws that are passed are based on one religion, the religion of SATAN!
He must be having a field day at how immoral society has become!
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Mousey
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predicated-1. To base or establish
This statement is false. This country was established with the principles of the Judaism and Christian religions. Many try to disassociate the religious past of this country in order to promote the false believe of separation of Church and State. There is a lack of knowledge of our country’s history.
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Filius99993
Guest
If in case you haven’t noticed, government IS Satan. Or at least ours is heading that way.
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KarenNC
Guest
Sorry, must have missed the part of the Constitution that set up the fourth branch of government, then. It’s a shame that there are so many avowed Satanists in the Congress
adherents.com/adh_congress.html#109
the Supreme Court
adherents.com/adh_sc.html
and among US governors
adherents.com/gov/adh_gov.html
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
Of course I have noticed
and ours is their already (in case you have not noticed)
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
Sorry, you missed the point of my post:shrug:
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KarenNC
Guest
You’ll be familiar with the following, then.
Where the preamble declares, “that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion”, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion…”
Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, Ratified by the United States June 10, 1797. Proclaimed June 10, 1797.
earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
*In his, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
“. . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.” [/l]
and
[l]“They all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point”*
-Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835
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KarenNC
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No, you appear to have missed mine.
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Mousey
Guest
Please note that I said This country was established with the principles of the Judaism and Christian religions not on the churchs of Judaism and Christian.
I could trade quotes with you but it would serve no purpose. Your statement that it is not predicated on any religion is not true. The founding fathers were Christian it is unlikely that when they formed the government that they left that Christianity at the door. It predicated on Christianity but not on any particular church. Your statement as it stands is incorrect.
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KarenNC
Guest
Considering the statements I quoted were made by those very Founding Fathers, the ones who wrote the founding documents and formed the government, it would seem that one might trust their statements about whether or not they predicated it on Christianity. The Treaty of Tripoli, for example, including the clause that explicitly states that it was not founded in any way on Christianity, was ratified by the Congress and widely publicized in the newspapers at the time.
You may claim that it is incorrect, but I think that the historical record speaks fairly plainly.
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mapleoak
Guest
Sure it does. No promiscuous behaviour, no disease. Problem addressed.
Celibacy is a vocation some willingly dedicate themselves to. The Catholic Church does not require anyone to be celibate. You are getting off of the path now. The issue is whether contraceptive education should be taught in public schools. And the answer is no for a number of reasons. Firstly it is immoral and our country, being founded on Christian principles, needs to reflect those principles in its legislation. This is not a country founded on atheist principles. Two, it is false to say it protects from disease, so there is no protection.
It is inhumane to offer folks the opportunity to destroy their soul.
What most people think as already said before don’t make it so.
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mapleoak
Guest
In somuch as possible, government policies need to reflect Catholic teaching and align itself with such. Catholics should not be content to practice their faith within their home, but spread it about by example, pushing for legislation which is based on morality (a law against abortion for example), and working toward the social good through the election of true Catholic representatives.
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mapleoak
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Historical records do indeed speak fairly plainly.
QUOTE TIME!!!
"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man."
*“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.” *
“A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen. It is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus” - Thomas Jefferson
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” - Patrick Henry - May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay
"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue equity and humanity" - John Adams
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” - John Adams
“O eternal and everlasting God, I presume to present myself this morning before Thy Divine Majesty, beseeching Thee to accept of my humble and hearty thanks…Direct my thoughts, words and work, wash away my sins in the immaculate Blood of the Lamb, and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit…Daily frame me more and more into the likeness of Thy Son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in Thy appointed time attain the resurrection of the just unto eternal life.” - George Washington
"We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart." - James Madison
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” - James Madison
“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” - Ben Franklin at Constitutional Convention of 1787
"This is a religious nation." 1892 (Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457, 470) the Supreme Court
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c659smith
Guest
KarenNC
But you miss my point I do not want my child being given rubbers in school nor my grand=daughters birth control pills in school.
As a matter of fact I do not want my children taught by a has been Gymn Teacher what sex is all about.
This is stepping on my and my Childrens Religious freedom.I find birth control a mortal sin as this is what my faith teaches.
I find abortion often used as a birth control method etrinsically evil. and killing the innocent.
A choice should be given as to what in this area is taught and I want my child being taught abstinence and respect for ones body.
Why is it that liberals are afraid of true choice and demand their 2 cents always to be pushed.
One of the figures you left out was the vast increase with sex education the drastic increase in middle school children having sex.
Why do you insist that my tax dollars help promote what I believe to be evil.
There are parents out there that cannot afford a private education let them have the choice as to what is taught to their children in this area.
Make it an elective like drivers ed needing a parents signiture Abstince Class or How to have sex class***.
But you miss my point I do not want my child being given rubbers in school nor my grand=daughters birth control pills in school.
As a matter of fact I do not want my children taught by a has been Gymn Teacher what sex is all about.
This is stepping on my and my Childrens Religious freedom.I find birth control a mortal sin as this is what my faith teaches.
I find abortion often used as a birth control method etrinsically evil. and killing the innocent.
A choice should be given as to what in this area is taught and I want my child being taught abstinence and respect for ones body.
Why is it that liberals are afraid of true choice and demand their 2 cents always to be pushed.
One of the figures you left out was the vast increase with sex education the drastic increase in middle school children having sex.
Why do you insist that my tax dollars help promote what I believe to be evil.
There are parents out there that cannot afford a private education let them have the choice as to what is taught to their children in this area.
Make it an elective like drivers ed needing a parents signiture Abstince Class or How to have sex class***.
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
Sex Ed, is a course/class that you as a parent can have your kids opt out of!
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