Little Problem, Need Help

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DarinHamel:
The jewish creation story comes from the Babalonian one which come from the Summer one. Much of the Torah come from the code of Hammerabi.
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No, it didn’t, and, no, it doesn’t.
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DarinHamel:
Is Jesus the only guy to rise from the dead? Nope, there are many Chinese stories of their mystics rising from the dead.
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All without a shred of historical evidence, which stands in sharp contrast to the historical reliability of the Gospels.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
mlchance-I learned about the historical roots of the bible in my scripture classes at Holy Apostles Seminary in Cromwell, Connecticut. Thats a Catholic seminary by the way. The bible having roots in other historical documents isn’t some crazy theory from liberal theologians or my own fevered imagination. It is widely taught in christian seminaries as well in hebrew universities.

Strider- Heavens Gate folks commited suicide for their nutty beliefs. In India, Hindus die at the hands of Moslems daily for their beliefs and in Tailand taoist and buddhists kill each other. I would haave to say that dying for your faith is as common in any religion. There was that protestant girl who didn’t deny her faith during that school shooting and died. Does that make the protestant religion the true faith? There is no shortage of martyrs, only worthy causes to die for.

Writer-What?

Man oh man, I was asking for help and now I am defending myself from attacks.
 
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DarinHamel:
mlchance-I learned about the historical roots of the bible in my scripture classes at Holy Apostles Seminary in Cromwell, Connecticut. Thats a Catholic seminary by the way. The bible having roots in other historical documents isn’t some crazy theory from liberal theologians or my own fevered imagination. It is widely taught in christian seminaries as well in hebrew universities.

Strider- Heavens Gate folks commited suicide for their nutty beliefs. In India, Hindus die at the hands of Moslems daily for their beliefs and in Tailand taoist and buddhists kill each other. I would haave to say that dying for your faith is as common in any religion. There was that protestant girl who didn’t deny her faith during that school shooting and died. Does that make the protestant religion the true faith? There is no shortage of martyrs, only worthy causes to die for.

Writer-What?

Man oh man, I was asking for help and now I am defending myself from attacks.
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The reason you are defending yourself now is that you’re not making sense and you’re hiding behind blanket statements and generalizations. Looks like Writer answered your last concern, but all you can say in reply is “What?”. Oh, yeah…that’s telling him. I think people are starting to question your motives for starting the thread in the first place–your replies don’t make sense given what you have said…
 
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DarinHamel:
mlchance-I learned about the historical roots of the bible in my scripture classes at Holy Apostles Seminary in Cromwell, Connecticut. Thats a Catholic seminary by the way. The bible having roots in other historical documents isn’t some crazy theory from liberal theologians or my own fevered imagination. It is widely taught in christian seminaries as well in hebrew universities.

Strider- Heavens Gate folks commited suicide for their nutty beliefs. In India, Hindus die at the hands of Moslems daily for their beliefs and in Tailand taoist and buddhists kill each other. I would haave to say that dying for your faith is as common in any religion. There was that protestant girl who didn’t deny her faith during that school shooting and died. Does that make the protestant religion the true faith? There is no shortage of martyrs, only worthy causes to die for.

Writer-What?

Man oh man, I was asking for help and now I am defending myself from attacks.
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Once again, Darin, your reply leaves something to be desired in the way of what you are talking about. My post was clear. If you have a question or comment, please be so kind to articulate it clearly. Sadly, my mind-reading skills have grown somewhat rusty. Thanks!
 
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DarinHamel:
mlchance-I learned about the historical roots of the bible in my scripture classes at Holy Apostles Seminary in Cromwell, Connecticut. Thats a Catholic seminary by the way. The bible having roots in other historical documents isn’t some crazy theory from liberal theologians or my own fevered imagination. It is widely taught in christian seminaries as well in hebrew universities.
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And I learned abou the historical roots of the Old Testament at the University of St. Thomas in Houston, Texas. That’s a Catholic university, by the way. The hypothesis that the Genesis creation story and/or the Torah were substantially based on Sumerian mythologies is overwrought and doesn’t stand up well to genuine scrutiny. The idea that either were heavily influenced by the Babylonians – a culture that came about after the initial formation of the Torah – is simply implausible. The entire hypothesis rests largely on a series of post hoc fallacies, and I heard that first from a rabbi teaching at the aforesaid Catholic university.

Incidentally, pointing out errors in your statements isn’t an attack. You’re the one who came here looking for people to correct and/or contradict what you think you know.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
DarinHamel:

If I get it straight, you’re looking for absolute proof. But the reason our FAITH is called faith is because we have to believe without seeing (Christ tells Thomas this). But if we believe then we will see (refer to St. Augustine). Looks like you’re asking the scriptures for the scientific formula. It just won’t give that to you. It wasn’t meant to be a scientific analysis.

If you’re up to the task, read GK Chesterton’s THE EVERLASTING MAN. It’s a hard read but worth it. He gives us a full version of anthropology that is in dire need in today’s society. He explains the other cultures and religions there.

Kreeft in one of his talks candidly said that God gave enough proof for those seeking. Enough is the key word since this life is about having faith and seeking the truth. If he gave us a “proof” we would be compelled and that blows our free will out of the water.

God bless you in this arid time. Remember that all virtues are earned when it’s difficult, so the virtue of faith strenghens when carried through amid doubt.

in XT.
A
 
DarinHamel,

Some of what you posted implies that the conclusions of some using the historical critical method is to be trusted as though it were certain teaching of Catholic doctrine. Just because you were taught something in a seminary does not guarantee its orthodoxy. The “attacks” that your think are against you are not attacks at all, but a defense of Catholic doctrine, the variant historical critical theories you might have been taught, notwithstanding.

From Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Biblical Interpretation in Crisis:
jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/15047.htm
To speak of the crisis of the historical-critical method today is practically a truism. This, despite the fact that it had gotten off to so optimistic a start…dogma or church doctrine appeared as one of the real impediments to a correct understanding of the Bible itself. But freed from this impertinent presupposition, and equipped with a [historical critical] methodology which promised strict objectivity, it seemed that we were finally going to be able to hear again the clear and unmistakable voice of the original message of Jesus. … Gradually, however, ***the picture became more and more confused. ***

…We need a self-criticism of the historical method … to begin, it seems, by reading its conclusions in a diachronic manner so that the appearence of a quasi-clinical-scientific certainty is avoided. It has been this appearance of certainty which has caused its conclusions to be accepted so far and wide…[yet] what one exegete takes as definite can only be called into question by other exegetes… the importance of the Heisenberg principle should be applied to the historical-critical method…Heisenberg has shown that the outcome of a given experiment is heavily influenced by the point of view of the observer. … this means that interpretation can never be just a simple reproduction of history’s being, “as it was.” … Pure objectivity is an absurd abstraction. "
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It appears that the conclusions of the historical critical method which you were taught with such “appearance of certainty” in seminary could use a healthy dose of doubt.

BTW, more than one “scholar” from the Tübingen school of thought regarding the historical critical method, left the faith. I think our concern is that you might fall victim to the same dubious theories which in reality have no real certainty, but have a history of bring men to doubt their faith.
 
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DarinHamel:
My problem isn’t with Church history or thinking that the church did something bad so I dont want to belong anymore. It’s deeper. It’s looking at the Church from the perspective of world history. I’ve read the Catechism. I loved it. I’ve read several good church history books. As far as religions go, the Catholic church has all others beat.
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OK…so the Catholic Church is good so far…
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DarinHamel:
I understand why protestants on fire for Jesus join the Catholic Church. As a cradle Catholic totally immersed in secular culture and an avid reader of history, I doubt the Catholic church is the “True Faith”. Does that make sense?
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Of course it doesn’t make sense. You started by establishing some very positive things regarding the Catholic Church - reasons we would naturally think would be encouraging you. But instead of drawing encouragement from these things you finish with your doubts regarding the Church based on the fact that you are “immersed in secular culture.” If you think you have communicated something so far, Im afraid not. Why don’t you identify what it is regarding secular culture that conflicts with your faith so we can discuss the relative merits of what secular culture has presented to you and what the faith has to offer.
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DarinHamel:
I go to mass almost every day because I doubt. I don’t want to leave the church but if it isn’t the True Faith I intend to find it. I am trying to be as intellectually honest as possible with myself.
I believe in the morality that the Catholic Chuch teaches. I am not looking for reasons to leave the Church because I want to pursue my personal sins without guilt either. I want to know the ultimate truth.
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Perhaps you don’t realize that you haven’t told us WHY you question whether the Church is the True Faith. Did you expect something from your faith that you are not getting, for instance?
Do you feel alone or depressed? What is it you feel is lacking?

Phil
 
Catholic Dude:
Sounds like the problem is your “history” texts. Most texts nowdays are full of BS and made up history than anything else. The Bible is the most printed book of all time and has stopped the greatest minds dead in their tracks.

Go do some catholic charity work like loaves and fishes or something and see for youself what religion is REALLY HELPING out people every day. Check out the history on charity work around the WORLD and see who is the salt of the earth. Blessed Mother Teresa wasnt messing around when she gave up her life for Jesus. When ANY world leader stood next to her the light of Christ brought them to their knees.

The Catholic Church is ALIVE and LIVING history, the Sacraments, Missions and Saints are history.
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👍 :crying:

That would be tears of joy…sorry this is so late

Phil
 
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DarinHamel:
I can’t prove I am not a plant by the vast left wing conspiracy. My spiritual director is Fr Ed Farrell who is the spiritual director for the seminarians at Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit. I attend St Clement Church in Center Line, Michigan and when I miss there I go St John Hospital where I work.

People see me every day at church and think I am so faith filled and I think I go so much because I am not. I don’t say anything to others because I don’t want to be a stumbling block to others.

The history problem is one of perspective. Its like learning in school that Galileo was the first to posit the sun was at the center of the universe. In truth it was the Summerian and Chinese thousands of years before Galileo who knew that. I was taught in the seminary that the Catholic church was the first and only religion that had God becoming bread and the people eating it in a mystical communion. The rites of Osiris in the Egyptian book of the Dead do the same way before Jesus as did the Essenes a small Jewish sect a hundred years before Jesus.

A historical perspective says there is nothing new or unique about the Catholic Church. I am not slamming the Church when I say that. Its just a fact and I want to know the truth through the facts.
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Can I ask a couple of simple questions?
  • Who is your best friend?
  • What do you like to do most with your spare time?
  • What do you consider your greatest accomplishment in life?
  • What do you look forward to most in the future?
Just curious,

Phil
 
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Strider:
I’ll address the points you seem to have the most difficulty with as best I can.
As far as pre-existing pagan religions having the same basis as Catholicism (a son of a god dies and is returned to life), I believe if you look at them carefully, there is always some distortion in the story. If you believe in the Blessed Trinity, then you believe in Satan.
Would Satan not want to plant seeds of doubt in the minds of future believers? A good way of doing that would be to arrange false but similar stories that predated the True Son of God. In that way, people might question the veracity of the Scriptures, as indeed you are.
As to original sin, the Church requires us to believe that there were two original humans into whom God breathed a soul which was in His image and likeness. We are free to believe in a six 24 hour day creation or development of Homo sapiens over the span of milion of years, as long as we believe the immortal soul part.
These two were born with glorified souls. God gave them only one command, which they violated. Thereafter, the soul God gives to each of us I percieve as being “mutated,” if you will, by their act. Jesus came to rectify that mutation, and did so perfectly.
Whenever a little worm of doubt wiggles its way into my faith, I put this question to myself:
If Jesus Christ was a phony, if he didn’t actually die and rise again, why woud the Apostles do what they did? They saw His brutal suffering, the Roman torture and the agony and death on the cross. They were there.
To what advantage did they preach the death and resurrection of Jesus christ? Did they expect earthly wealth, power or fame? For what possible reason would a man knowingly and voluntarily preach a story if he knew doing so would result in his painful and violent death, most likely preceeded by torture and humiliation unless he knew it was the Truth. Because, if it was the Truth, he’d better preach it, suffer for it, die for it, because eternity never, and I mean never, ends.
In the history you’ve read, have others voluntarily died for a lie? Did they gladly die for what they believed to be the truth?
And this is NOT the same as war. In a war, one doesn’t expect to die, and one fights and does not submit gladly to death unless he does so in order to save his comrades.
“No greater love,”
That’s the best I can do, my friend. I decide every day to believe, and so I do.
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AMEN! 👍 Its tough to beat eyewitness testimony, a changed life, and the willingness to die painfully rather than simply recant. You must deal with the unanswerable question of why these otherwise sane men would do this if it all weren’t true…

Phil
 
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DarinHamel:
Like a moslem would die for his?
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Please don’t get me started on this - its one thing to be PUT TO DEATH, its another to blow yourself up. There is no comparison…
Murder is always wrong - whether its someone else you kill or yourself.

Phil
 
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DarinHamel:
My problem isn’t with Church history or thinking that the church did something bad so I dont want to belong anymore. It’s deeper. It’s looking at the Church from the perspective of world history. I’ve read the Catechism. I loved it. I’ve read several good church history books. As far as religions go, the Catholic church has all others beat.

I understand why protestants on fire for Jesus join the Catholic Church. As a cradle Catholic totally immersed in secular culture and an avid reader of history, I doubt the Catholic church is the “True Faith”. Does that make sense?

I go to mass almost every day because I doubt. I don’t want to leave the church but if it isn’t the True Faith I intend to find it. I am trying to be as intellectually honest as possible with myself.
I believe in the morality that the Catholic Chuch teaches. I am not looking for reasons to leave the Church because I want to pursue my personal sins without guilt either. I want to know the ultimate truth.
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Do you doubt there is a gad, or just the Catholic faith? I would look at the amzing universe we live in and think it is impossible that things are how they are without a god.
 
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DarinHamel:
Would some of you, you know who you are, please re-read the title of the post. “LITTLE” Problem and my first post. I think alot of you are taking my post a little to seriously.
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???
It’s not a “little problem” to lose your faith, especially if you are planning on taking vows.
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DarinHamel:
Aunt Martha-Hey she was in the reading today! Martha, Martha did you really say to not pray as much. I have also had people tell me there’s more to life than God.
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I never said that there was more to life than God. I said “The excessive prayer is also exhausting you. You need to find alternative ways to serve God, like others have suggested.” If praying for hours and hours at a time is making you lose your faith, then maybe you need to do more works, which God also asks of us. My point was that your life is not in balance in regards to faith and works.
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DarinHamel:
I am leaving. Thank you for your time. God bless you all.
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Oh, that’s just great - start a fire, then run away, run away, when it gets too hot.

Now tell me, are you really a person contemplating taking vows, or an athiest in sheep’s clothing who came here to “set us straight” and now you’re running away now that people have been giving you great answers to combat your athiest views?
 
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AquinasXVI:
If you’re up to the task, read GK Chesterton’s THE EVERLASTING MAN. It’s a hard read but worth it. He gives us a full version of anthropology that is in dire need in today’s society. He explains the other cultures and religions there.
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I second that advice. It deals specifically with the question you are asking: the Church and Christ’s place in the scheme of pre-history and history.
 
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AuntMartha:
If praying for hours and hours at a time is making you lose your faith, then maybe you need to do more works, which God also asks of us. My point was that your life is not in balance in regards to faith and works.
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I meant to say, “My point was that your life is not in balance in regards to prayer and works.”

I needed to clarify that - I didn’t want there to be any confusion - there is so much discussion in religious forums on faith and works, that I typed the word “faith” instead of “prayer”.
 
In case you’re still looking in, Darin, I would highly recommend Dr. Warren Carroll’s series of books on the history of Christendom; Dr. Carroll addresses very thoroughly the worldview/theology of the world’s religions and contrasts them to the uniqueness of Christ.

isi.org/books/titles.aspx?SBy=Author&SFor=Carroll
 
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