Liturgical Abuses depressing me

[Jean_Marie_1]

armchair popes on the Internet

I, quite literally, was “LOLing” upon reading that!!!

You’re right.

I’ve been to a number of parishes, and while I may not have been all that pleased with the architecture or the homily, nothing has ever JUMPED OUT at me as being sacrilegious about the Mass, particularly the Consecration.

 

[Mirdath]

armchair popes

If I ever start a band, I think I know what one possible name is… thanks

 

[guanophore]

Evil or stupid? No. Neglectful and simply overlooking things? Possibly.

Just as a side note, how could you put the words “priest” and “evil” in the same sentence? It’s quite offensive.

Because some of the evil done by the priests is so offensive. If we think the priest is incapable of gross evil, we will fail to support him, and evil we be perpetuated. Satan loves to attack the Church through her ministers, and has been successful, especially here in America.

Lord, give us holy priests! You Yourself maintain them in Holiness!

 

[guanophore]

I don’t mean any one parish in particular. I mean this tends to be the state of the Church in the US now. There is always someone talking about some abuse somewhere and nobody seems to be doing anything about it.

ok…priests are not evil, but are a lot being corrupted by Satan in a manner which is becomming too obvious?

Have you tried the Byzantine Church? They have a different heirarchy (different bishops) but are still in union with Rome, and they use the Easter rite. I bet you would like it!

 

[guanophore]

I cannot feel that the pope thinks anything is out of his hands. With God he can do anything.

I am not sure the Serenity Prayer is appropriate here because I think there are things we do have the power to change if we can.

It is most definitely appopriate!

God, grant me the serentity
to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know that difference.

Of course you should take steps to make changes.

You also must not assume that “nothing is getting done”. The bishops cannot correct the priest in front of the laity, so all that will happen in private . Pray we see the fruit of it!

 

[guanophore]

I really feel your pain. I have been in the same “depressed” state about the condition of the Church here in the Pacific Northwest for some time. God finally brought me some relief when He led me to the one truly traditional Parish in the whole city but I recently had to move an hour away from that Church and the search for a new one left me so despondent that I actually did not go to Mass for two weeks. And this is what I learned:

I was putting my “feelings” about the way the Mass was celebrated before Christ.
I was sacrificing my entire relationship to my Lord because priests and congregants were doing things wrong.
I was depriving myself of being in Christ’s presence and receiving His peace and grace because I was too “upset” about the state of things.
I was allowing the devil to convince me that it was acceptable to be so mad at the Church that I would sacrifice my relationship to Christ.
I finally realized that I am not in charge: If Christ is really upset with the state of our Church, HE will do something about it. How could I be more upset than God?

However, I did write letters to the Bishop, went to Confession, spoke with my priest and spiritual director and searched until I finally found a Church with a solid Liturgy. You must persevere and remember that we do what we can, and the rest is up to God. If and when He has had enough, He will fix it.

Good for you! I believe this is what we are all called to do, to examine our own consciences, to take action, and to do penance. This is how reform SHOULD happen. Let us not repeat the sins of Luther!

 

[puzzleannie]

All these abuses I see and hear about really getting to me. Is there any hope? Even some bishops are commiting abuses. Why isn’t the Holy Father doing anything? Is there no hope?

I say to myself: “Jesus would be rolling over in His grave if He had one”. (Just a little humor to keep me sane.)

Seriously, is there no more respect for the sacraments among most Catholics?

Priests who commit abuses: Are they evil or just stupid?

you are talking about some priests, in some places at some times. You are not talking about the universal church at all places in all times. What would you suggest the Pope do if a priest in California is celebrating Mass incorrectly. Send in a corps of Swiss Guards to burn him at the stake? What Rome does is issue and publish the norms. It is up to the bishosp to publish and enforce them in their dioceses. The Church does not have an international military force so I don’t know what action you are proposing.

As for being depressed about it, that is downright silly. What good will your emotions do about correcting an abuse, even one you witness locally? The proper response is to first simply ask the priest what he is doing and why, and ask if the Mass and sacraments he is celebrating are valid and licit. Depending on his response, you then go to the bishop etc. That process has been detailed many times here. If your parish is incorrigible, find another parish.

 

[MTD]

All these abuses I see and hear about really getting to me.

If it’s destroying your peace, it’s good to get away from it all. (That would include staying away from the threads that talk about liturgical abuses. ) Ever thought about going to a TLM? There’s one in Boston at noon every Sunday.

Holy Trinity Church
140 Shawmut Avenue
Boston MA 02118

Maria

 

[BobP123]

well, I believe in honesty.

Is there an orthodox priest here that can give advice to all of us who are frustrated like me?

I’m not a priest but I can give you the current code of Canon Law:

Can. 1248 §1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day.

§2 If it is impossible to assist at a eucharistic celebration, either because no sacred minister is available or for some other grave reason, the faithful are strongly recommended to take part in a liturgy of the Word, if there be such in the parish church or some other sacred place, which is celebrated in accordance with the provisions laid down by the diocesan Bishop; or to spend an appropriate time in prayer, whether personally or as a family or, as occasion presents, in a group of families.

The only question remains is how you interpret “grave reason.” Scandal? Sacrilege? Distraction from prayer? All of the given?

 

[kangnamdragon]

I really feel your pain. I have been in the same “depressed” state about the condition of the Church here in the Pacific Northwest for some time. God finally brought me some relief when He led me to the one truly traditional Parish in the whole city but I recently had to move an hour away from that Church and the search for a new one left me so despondent that I actually did not go to Mass for two weeks. And this is what I learned:

I was putting my “feelings” about the way the Mass was celebrated before Christ.
I was sacrificing my entire relationship to my Lord because priests and congregants were doing things wrong.
I was depriving myself of being in Christ’s presence and receiving His peace and grace because I was too “upset” about the state of things.
I was allowing the devil to convince me that it was acceptable to be so mad at the Church that I would sacrifice my relationship to Christ.
I finally realized that I am not in charge: If Christ is really upset with the state of our Church, HE will do something about it. How could I be more upset than God?

However, I did write letters to the Bishop, went to Confession, spoke with my priest and spiritual director and searched until I finally found a Church with a solid Liturgy. You must persevere and remember that we do what we can, and the rest is up to God. If and when He has had enough, He will fix it.

This makes me feel better. I just wonder about what God said to St. Francis: “Fix My Church.” God acts through people and I am not sure what the role is for those of us who are upset and hurt.

 

[Joysong]

sorry, I cannot believe that when a priest has a clown read the gospel he is overlooking things. I can understand that if he misses a prayer, but not when he changes words, lets women in halter tops distribute communion, uses a glass chalice, replaces the crucifix with one of those resurrecifixes, etc…that is not overlooking things…that is true disobedience to the Church

Kangnamdragon, have you personally seen a “clown” read the gospel? Living Boston, I doubt you have. Or women in halter tops distribute communion? If you have personally observed this and not simply read about it in the many threads that continually surface on this forum, then I do sympathize with you. Somehow, I honestly don’t believe that is the customary practice in most of our churches, do you?

As for the crucifix, while that may not be to your liking, I do not believe it is an abuse. Maybe the things that disturb you, such as we see voiced so often, are not technically abuses, but matters of personal opinion. I’m sure you have seen the threads about the sign of peace (licit), contemporary music (licit), versus populum (licit), communion in the hand (licit), unveiled heads (licit), vernacular liturgies (licit), female altar servers (licit), and the list could go on and on, as do the hundreds of laments from people who hold other preferences as to what they believe constitutes true sacredness.

Would you abandon Jesus and refuse to worship Him and receive the Eucharist solely due to these differences? [Some have chosen this path, sadly.] I’m not ignorant of the fact that there had been a lot of experimentation, and I remind our readers that this was also “licit” until the period for it was stopped, and new guidelines distributed.

If any of us enters a church with anticipation of abuses, our focus will be negative from the get-go, and it will be easy to find all kinds of reasons to be angry. After hearing today’s gospel, I’m not sure this would please Christ. Although the woman caught in adultery was definitely guilty and subject to stoning, Jesus took her part due to the self-righteousness of her accusers. It seems that their pride in wanting her condemnation and sentencing was greater than her sin — something we need to watch carefully.

St. Teresa of Avila spoke rather sternly about witnessing the sins of others, saying that we should feel as sorry about them as if they were our own. Also, what “looks” like sin, may not be serious sin, due to circumstances we cannot know with certainty. Sorrow, versus self-righteous anger will help us discern how pleasing we are to God in these matters. Sorrow always leads to prayer and peaceful action to remedy the problem, as others mentioned with the serenity prayer.

 

[maria_rose]

Just because one commits an evil act does not make the person evil.

If committing evil acts doesn’t make you evil, what does?

 

[kangnamdragon]

Just because one commits an evil act does not make the person evil.

If committing evil acts doesn’t make you evil, what does?

Well, technically nobody is really evil because everyone is created by God and has some goodness in him or her because of that. Even Satan has some good in him.

 

[puzzleannie]

Good for you! I believe this is what we are all called to do, to examine our own consciences, to take action, and to do penance. This is how reform SHOULD happen. Let us not repeat the sins of Luther!

we could all direct our spiritual attention to the evil in our own hearts and actions, return to the tried and true practices of penance, prayer, fasting, almsgiving and frequent recourse to the sacraments, which will lead to renewal and reform of abuses within the Church faster and more effectively than whining, overstatement, hysteria and anxiety.

 

[BobP123]

Just because one commits an evil act does not make the person evil.

If committing evil acts doesn’t make you evil, what does?

An unrepentent evil-doer is an evil person.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

If I ever start a band, I think I know what one possible name is… thanks

no probs, i require 15% of all revenues, this includes t-shirt sales, concession sales, cds, music videos, advertising, and ticket sales.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

All these abuses I see and hear about really getting to me. Is there any hope? Even some bishops are commiting abuses. Why isn’t the Holy Father doing anything? Is there no hope?

I say to myself: “Jesus would be rolling over in His grave if He had one”. (Just a little humor to keep me sane.)

Seriously, is there no more respect for the sacraments among most Catholics?

Priests who commit abuses: Are they evil or just stupid?

Maybe what you think are abuses, are really not?

If you’re relying on what you read in this forum, you could be misinformed, not all of it is accurate.

Jim

 

[az_4_faith]

I have personally witnessed:

1. Liturgical dancing in front of the tabernacle during Mass.
   (Forbidden)
2. Priests announcing that the Creed would be recited only
   periodically on Sundays so that the words wouldn’t be taken
   for granted by the faithful. (Forbidden)
3. Ditto with the Gloria (see #2) (Forbidden)
4. A story about a raisin and a grape subsituted for the First
   Reading (Forbidden)
5. Lay Minister proclaiming the Gospel while the Celebrant
   sits in the Sanctuary (Forbidden)
6. Lay Minister gives the homily while Celebrant sits in
   the Sanctuary (Forbidden)
7. Lay Minister alongside Priest conducting healing service,
   including using holy oils and laying on of hands during
   Mass. (Forbidden)
8. Priest changing various parts of the prayers of the Mass and
   inserting his own narratives instead (Forbidden) - (thankfully
   he doesn’t change any of the words of the Consecration).
9. On more than several occasions, priests skipping the Gloria
   on Sundays of ordinary time (not Sundays in Advent or during
   Lent) (Forbidden)
10. Liturgical dancing by adult women at the Easter Vigil Mass
    that “acted out” the First Reading.

These are the first ones that come to my mind when I thought about how many I have personally witnessed.

Just because you don’t personally witness these abuses doesn’t mean they’re not happening. Please don’t demean others who do witness them because you haven’t seen them yourself.

I’ve heard some very faithful priests express their frustration to me about their brother priest’s liturgical abuses by saying “it’s just so easy to celebrate Mass correctly, why is it so hard for some to be obedient?”

Catholics have the right to have the liturgy presented to them faithfully, without personal interjections, manipulations or abuses by their priests.

Holy Mother Church says so.

 

[chrysostom15]

Pope Benedict just issued Sacramentum Caritatis – so he is doing something about it.

 

[kangnamdragon]

Kangnamdragon, have you personally seen a “clown” read the gospel? Living Boston, I doubt you have. Or women in halter tops distribute communion? If you have personally observed this and not simply read about it in the many threads that continually surface on this forum, then I do sympathize with you. Somehow, I honestly don’t believe that is the customary practice in most of our churches, do you?

.

Yes, I have seen this.