Liturgical Abuses depressing me

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AnnieD:
when reading about abuses, it does help me to vent about it. It accomplishes for me, the same good purpose, as it does you, who criticize those who talk about the abuses occuring in their churches.
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Well, that is certainly between you and God, and whether you believe this is His will for you to publicly display the wrongs of others. I would disagree, as might others, but go ahead and spread your encouraging? words. You’ll feel better.
 
Joysong,
Since this is a thread regarding Liturgical abuse, why do you read it, since you don’t believe anyone should mention any liturgical abuse that they are experiencing during their Masses.

AnnieD
Joysong said:
Well, that is certainly between you and God, and whether you believe this is His will for you to publicly display the wrongs of others. I would disagree, as might others, but go ahead and spread your encouraging? words. You’ll feel better.
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AnnieD:
Since this is a thread regarding Liturgical abuse, why do you read it, since you don’t believe anyone should mention any liturgical abuse that they are experiencing during their Masses.
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I disagree. Can we refresh the OP’s post a sec?
All these abuses I see and hear about really getting to me. Is there any hope?
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Priests who commit abuses: Are they evil or just stupid?
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The title spoke about depression, and the first post was about a lack of hope, while asking if priests were evil and/or stupid. Now should any of us who are concerned about a fellow poster who has these troubles be a good samaritan and try to help? Or should we just walk on by and let them wallow in misery?

There’s my answer, Annie. I have tried my very best to put a positive slant on both the clergy and bishops, and extend some brightness of hope and gratitude for the mass irrespective of the problems some face (which seems to be diminishing in threads like these). Read again the post I submitted from Zenit saying we ought not to use our freedom in order to tear down, but to create unity. Have I not tried to do this? You may view it solely as criticism, but I assure you it is born of love, even though I may have offered … not criticism, but a correction that is infused with hope.

Each day, we offer everything we do to God, asking Him to bless it for His glory. Rethink again your position of bringing Him glory, and see whether I speak with truth and love, or just to tear you all down when I plead with you to rise above the problems, enter into prayer, and do something constructive.
 
Annie, you spoke about your desire to vent. I just want to share an excellent Vatican document that teaches us the just manner of carrying it out.
  1. Public opinion is an essential expression of human nature organized in a society. This opinion is formed in the following way. In everyone there is an innate disposition to give vent to opinions, attitudes and emotions in order to reach a general acceptance on convictions and customs.
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  1. The process of promoting - in what is sometimes referred to as a “propaganda campaign”- with a view to influencing public opinion ** is justified only when it serves the truth** and its objectives and methods accord with the dignity of man and when it promotes causes that are in the public interest. These causes may concern either individuals or groups, one’s own country or the world at large.
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30. Any propaganda that deliberately misrepresents the real situation, or that distorts men’s minds with half-truths, selective reporting or serious omissions, that diminishes man’s legitimate freedom of decision, this propaganda should be rejected.
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  1. Not every opinion that is given publicity should be taken as a true expression of that public opinion which is held by a significant number of people. A number of differing opinions can flourish at the same time in the same area, though, usually, one has a greater following than the others. The opinion of the majority, however, is not necessarily the best or the closest to the truth.
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The underlying premise of #25 says to me that the primary purpose in venting is to gain acceptance from others for one’s personal convictions. However …

You and I probably have seen many times the distortion carried out with #30, and this is why I always ask for proofs and background, because the poster innocently (hopefully not deliberately) is subject to his own bias and may not always give the fullness of details. It sometimes leads to more of a propaganda type of error and we need to be very careful that others are not affected when we “vent” or give our personal interpretation of what we think we saw. Many reputations are at stake, and I’m sure none of us would want to be held accountable for leading another soul astray.

Carole
 
Sorry, Joysong but you have turned venting into brain surgery. The purpose of venting is to vent. That’s it; its that simple. Quite often people who vent are very passionate by nature. They really aren’t interested in convincing people of anything. I liked your other posts; this last one not so much. Its pretty insulting to use a Vatican Docuement on how public opinion is formed to some how suggest that people are trying to convince you that these Liturgical Abuses occurred. They either did or they didn’t; period. You gave some pretty good info out earlier in this thread but you might consider whether you want people to listen to what you have to say or if you just want to be right. By the way, you do the “passive agressive thing” really well.
 
GENERAL REMINDERS:

It may be hepful for some to review:

Post 4 - Banned Topics:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=17511
  1. Solicitation of personal information (e.g.,age, income, or location), beyond that freely offered by members through inclusion in their public profiles
  2. Identifying individual parishes, clergy, or hierarchs as “unfaithful to the Magisterium”, guilty of “liturgical abuse”, or otherwise engaged in unacceptable or unpopular practices, based on personal “knowledge” or opinion
Please do not personalize posts – address content, not each other.

And last, but certainly not least:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=132852

As always, thank you for your assistance in helping all of us to keep CAF a good place to be.
 
The purpose of venting is to vent. That’s it; its that simple. Quite often people who vent are very passionate by nature.
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Bless you Holland, for your good feedback! I always appreciate comments. Could you take another moment and read the document points above from another perspective? The perspective of morality in speech? My words were never meant to disbelieve that there are abuses, but to ask for clarification in alleging them.

It is not easy for you to know all the motivation behind my post since you are a relatively newer member. There have been multiple comments from former suspended posters that hid behind the excuse of “venting” in order to state very uncharitable opinions, calling it their “right to vent.” Freedom of speech, including venting, always carries a responsibility to serve the good of others who hear/read our words. If we color our gossip and give it free reign under an excuse of getting it off our chest [because one is … “passionate by nature?”], but fail to edify others in doing so, is it a good thing? Notwithstanding, it may cause others to slip and fall into the same despair and hopelessness?

Earlier attempts in this thread from myself as well as others to appeal to charity mostly fell by the wayside … hence the document. It should not have been necessary to cite it, I certainly agree. As we ponder our gut-checks, I believe the lack of interior peaceful assurance should stop us in our tracks as we reflect on whether some of our venting is truly God’s will.

Probably #30 is the most useful, if any of us wish to heed it, because it says in clear language that we have a moral obligation to safeguard reputations and use our freedoms responsibly. All-out license to vent whatever is on our chest, even on a Catholic Forum, is not a “right” as Marian so beautifully reminds us. 🙂
 
kleary said:
There is hope. You can leave the local parish and attend Holy Mass where there are no liturgical abuses- because no abuses are possible under the 1962 Missal.

I stopped getting depressed and upset every Sunday with all I saw and heard. And the parishes I have been in would seem pretty “traditional” to most people- (they did not have a movie screen on top of the tabernacle with a bouncing ball over the congregation’s responses or any of the Mahoneyism’s charades). I would come away from Mass angry, sad and upset- every time I saw someone receive in the hand- every time I saw a female in the sanctuary- especially an altar girl.

Now I only get upset inside over it all when I have to attend a Novus ordo parish out of necessity- but I offer it up for the poor souls in purgatory- (and these things I see are allowed today- I could imagine if I witnessed even more horrid things I hear about in this forum- I probably would vomit in church in front of everyone.)

On a side note- I had to attend the local N.O. parish this past Sunday and the priest said in his homily, “Jesus merely resusitated Lazarus in his body” (implying that Lazarus never died and Jesus did not raise him from the dead.) This is MODERNIST HERESY condemned by Pope Pius X. The modernist heresy denies the miracles of Jesus!

Ken
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Why I go to an Orthodox Church for now. No female altar servers. No eucharistic ministers. No bad music. Only incense, chant, icons, etcc. Spirituality at it’s finest. Kinda like what you would get with a TLM, but in classical Greek and classical English. And lessons from the early church fathers during homilies. As an added bonus.
 
Joysong, If you are talking about me, because I mentioned venting in one of my posts, I have never been suspended from this forum.

AnnieD
Joysong said:
There have been multiple comments from former suspended posters that hid behind the excuse of “venting” in order to state very uncharitable opinions, calling it their “right to vent.”
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Hi Annie,

No I was definitely not speaking to you, but in a general manner regarding the concept of “venting” since these persons brought back unpleasant memories of the harm they did. 😃
Any who saw their posts could come to believe that it is OK to speak one’s mind … no matter what is on it.

Peace.
 
bkovacs said:
Why I go to an Orthodox Church for now. No female altar servers. No eucharistic ministers. No bad music. Only incense, chant, icons, etcc. Spirituality at it’s finest. Kinda like what you would get with a TLM, but in classical Greek and classical English. And lessons from the early church fathers during homilies. As an added bonus.
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In other words, the laity sit in their pews with their mouth’s shut and do what they’re told and leave the worshiping to the clergy. 😃

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
In other words, the laity sit in their pews with their mouth’s shut and do what they’re told and leave the worshiping to the clergy. 😃

Jim
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Hi, Jim.

By the Cheshire grin smiley face next to your post, I assume you’re being sarcastically funny. If so, then that’s OK. I am a man who appreciates good sarcasm 👍 .

In any event, that does seem to be the choice that we are facing. Maybe it is just me, but it seems that the priests who abuse the mass the most are the ones who claim that if they did not “take liberties” with the rubrics, or if the Church returned to the Tridentine rite, then the mass would become so boring that nobody would want to go. Funny how this was not the case then the Tridentine Mass was the only Mass in town!

But given the choice between the solemn, reverent Tridentine Mass and the fun, upbeat, modernistic liturgical hoe-down offered us today, I would take the Tridentine Mass hands down :).

MT
 
Hi, I just came across this thread and the title summed up how I feel at times. Our priest is a good man but the mass is frustrating: I’m no expert on liturgical abuse but the mass has become depressing.

I’ll start at the beginning:

Welcome that is all about what a good day it’s been weatherwise.
Priest asking congregation to turn and discuss how their day has been.
Readers that have not read the text (let alone meditated on it).
Homily that has no relevance to text but is a feelgood speech.
General Intercessions that are likewise.
Ad-libbing of mass by priest to the point it bears little resemblance to mass I know and becomes incoherent babble.
Music is meaningless drivel.
Confession is non-existent.
Sin is never mentioned - we are all encouraged to “come as you are” but without the requirement to change your sinful ways.

It goes on…

Now please tell me if I’m missing something here…
 
limaynard said:
Hi, I just came across this thread and the title summed up how I feel at times. Our priest is a good man but the mass is frustrating: I’m no expert on liturgical abuse but the mass has become depressing.

I’ll start at the beginning:

Welcome that is all about what a good day it’s been weatherwise.
Priest asking congregation to turn and discuss how their day has been.
Readers that have not read the text (let alone meditated on it).
Homily that has no relevance to text but is a feelgood speech.
General Intercessions that are likewise.
Ad-libbing of mass by priest to the point it bears little resemblance to mass I know and becomes incoherent babble.
Music is meaningless drivel.
Confession is non-existent.
Sin is never mentioned - we are all encouraged to “come as you are” but without the requirement to change your sinful ways.

It goes on…

Now please tell me if I’m missing something here…
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I see a very pastoral priest here who is taking a lighter approach. Hard to say more without actually sitting through a service at your church.
 

“Ad-libbing of mass by priest to the point it bears little resemblance to mass I know and becomes incoherent babble”.​

Yup — the above looks to be very pastoral–:rolleyes: – 😦
 
I think the Pope is making some actions little by little to the liturgical abuses around the world.

Pax
Instaurare omnia in Christo
 
I’m finding myself being more distracted and irritated at Mass. I really don’t like the handholding at the Our Father. And, the dress bothers me. One very conscientious young man was serving Mass in flip flops. I found myself not praying for him for a vocation as is my usual practice, but wondering how he could serve Mass like that. And, the music is bothering me more. It doesn’t seem Mass worthy. Plus, we had a light turn out for evening Mass tonight, and I felt like the extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion were not needed. When the Lamb of God was sung, I found myself singing the Latin version internally.

What’s happening to me? Is this a temptation to be distracted or is my soul becoming more sensitive to liturgy?

Am I becoming more prideful and particular or am I being called to a more traditional form of the liturgy?

anyone go through this?

I think it’s probably a problem more with me than the Mass.
 
Maybe a combination of both. I don’t like handholding, so I sit in the seat beside the pillar. When it comes to footwear - I don’t worry anymore especially when it comes to flip flops. After all there are monks and nuns who wear sandals and the Collettine Poor Clares go barefoot.
 
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