Liturgical Abuses - So what's the big deal?

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

I didn’t see that in the Catechism.

I agree it is wise counsel, but I’m not certain it’s a Precept.

It isn’t in the Catechism. I know I have seen it somewhere or have been taught it. Might not be a precept, I agree. Maybe someone can help.

 

[Orionthehunter]

buffalo:

You can find the currently approved adaptations in the GIRM. You will quickly see that kneeling during the Consecration in the US is an adaptation and that I do not label it an abuse. Final approval must come from the Congregation of Divine Worship, for no one not even a Priest (which includes Bishops) on his own authority can change the liturgy.

I would accept documentation, or a reply showing the granted experimentation, its duration etc…

I need to clarify my question: If a particular Bishop has recieved permission for an adaptation in a particular diocese, will it be included in the GIRM. Your answer is for adaptations approved for the entire USCCB.

 

[Joysong]

Thanks, Buffalo,

Goofy me, I have a bad habit of editing after I remember some points, so you missed my edit. I’ll reprinit it here for you. BTW, I served as an organist and a cantor for many years, so I am familiar with the R&A book. Did you ever wonder about my user name?

I just remembered to mention that we sing the psalm at every Sunday liturgy, for we have cantors who lead us. The words do not identically match the sacramentary where a lector must proclaim the psalm if there is no cantor, such as at daily mass. The church has approved these psalm responses in booklet form, a liturgical aid called “Respond and Acclaim” which follows the current cycle of the Church in arranging the psalm and the gospel acclamataion to music.

Peace and joy,
Carole

 

[buffalo]

Orionthehunter:

I need to clarify my question: If a particular Bishop has recieved permission for an adaptation in a particular diocese, will it be included in the GIRM. Your answer is for adaptations approved for the entire USCCB.

Then the Bishop should have a copy of it in his office. I would think available for the faithful to see.

 

[Orionthehunter]

buffalo:

I didn’t recognize it and I stand corrected. That obviously would not be the hymn I was speaking of.

Maybe we could start by ruling out the ones that do not make the cut or what consitutes permiited substitutions? Many of the songs in a hymnal have the words of Psalms. Are they then all allowed. How does one make the distinction?

I think the point here is that the distinction is potentially hard to discern from those not particularly well-versed on the details. Our diocese has approved song books and other musical books acceptable for the Mass. These include responsorial psalm “substitutes” as described by Joysong. Unless you are well-versed in this area, it appears that what you characterized as an “abuse” might be approved and legitimate.

 

[Orionthehunter]

buffalo:

Then the Bishop should have a copy of it in his office. I would think available for the faithful to see.

So a reading of the GIRM may be insufficient for determining if something is an abuse or not.

 

[buffalo]

Orionthehunter:

I think the point here is that the distinction is potentially hard to discern from those not particularly well-versed on the details. Our diocese has approved song books and other musical books acceptable for the Mass. These include responsorial psalm “substitutes” as described by Joysong. Unless you are well-versed in this area, it appears that what you characterized as an “abuse” might be approved and legitimate.

OK!

 

[buffalo]

Orionthehunter:

So a reading of the GIRM may be insufficient for determining if something is an abuse or not.

So that is why when we see something different from the GIRM we inquire.

But read the GIRM and RS together and a picture starts to form giving you more information to make an inquiry. When all the ducks start to line up, it is a pretty compelling case.

I don’t get it?

 

[Orionthehunter]

buffalo:

So that is why when we see something different from the GIRM we inquire.

But read the GIRM and RS together and a picture starts to form giving you more information to make an inquiry. When all the ducks start to line up, it is a pretty compelling case.

I don’t get it?

It gives one cause for making an inquiry but it doesn’t give one cause to determine it is definitely an abuse and it certainly doesn’t give one cause to accuse a Bishop or Priest of being defiant or disobedient or heterodox.

On these matters, the laity is neither judge or jury. This is an exclusive perogative of legitimate ecclesiastical authorities.

 

[msproule]

Orionthehunter:

So a reading of the GIRM may be insufficient for determining if something is an abuse or not.

That seems to be the case. I would say that is among the reasons why Redemptionis Sacramentum was published. There is nothing new contained within its pages, merely clarifications and reiterations of previous teachings so that the ambiguity is reduced. There is an entire Deposit of Faith that is difficult to summarize in a few words.

 

[Orionthehunter]

buffalo:

Then the Bishop should have a copy of it in his office. I would think available for the faithful to see.

I definitely think that if an adaptation is approved it would be available as the GIRM talks about the implementation of the adaptation is to include catechesis of the clergy and laity. I’m not sure if it was in experimentation mode if public inspection is appropriate as I don’t know the protocol. A case could be made for both protocols (available or not available).

 

[Joysong]

Buffalo:

Many of the songs in a hymnal have the words of Psalms. Are they then all allowed. How does one make the distinction?

We have to rely on the good judgment of the organist or choir director who is subordinate to the pastor, but whose ministry is anointed by the Holy Spirit. They seem to have a liturgical sense for what is appropriate, coupled with learning from National Pastoral Music (NPM) workshops and such. My call to serve as organist was definitely from the Lord and I was very aware of His guidance in helping me serve the parish.

Trust me, if the pastor finds something amiss, he will step in and make recommendations or corrections, especially one who loves the liturgy. And I would have to say the majority of them do - after all, that is the most sublime activity in which they minister, and it is something they want to be done well. So if there is a real problem, you may only notice it one time because these will be eliminated when you come the following week.

I would say that only those hymns which have the verses of the psalms together with a suitable antiphonal response can be used. I just recalled another hymn that we have used, “The Cry of the Poor” which is the psalm 34, and the people respond, “The Lord hears the cry of the poor, blessed be the Lord!”

There are so many available to us, but I am brain-dead from another heavy day of reading threads and no more come to mind at the moment.

Carole

 

[buffalo]

Joysong:

We have to rely on the good judgment of the organist or choir director who is subordinate to the pastor, but whose ministry is anointed by the Holy Spirit. They seem to have a liturgical sense for what is appropriate, coupled with learning from National Pastoral Music (NPM) workshops and such. My call to serve as organist was definitely from the Lord and I was very aware of His guidance in helping me serve the parish.

Trust me, if the pastor finds something amiss, he will step in and make recommendations or corrections, especially one who loves the liturgy. And I would have to say the majority of them do - after all, that is the most sublime activity in which they minister, and it is something they want to be done well. So if there is a real problem, you may only notice it one time because these will be eliminated when you come the following week.

I would say that only those hymns which have the verses of the psalms together with a suitable antiphonal response can be used. I just recalled another hymn that we have used, “The Cry of the Poor” which is the psalm 34, and the people respond, “The Lord hears the cry of the poor, blessed be the Lord!”

There are so many we can use, but I am brain-dead from another heavy day of reading threads and no more come to mind at the moment.

Carole

I can’t trust that judgement when the music director states “it doesn’t matter” or “I can’t play those responses because they don’t sound good on guitar so we’ll just pick a song that sounds good”. Sorry!

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

I can’t trust that judgement when the music director states “it doesn’t matter” or “I can’t play those responses because they don’t sound good on guitar so we’ll just pick a song that sounds good”. Sorry!

Oy vey

 

[Orionthehunter]

If we were to go back to the 11 enumerated potential abuses by Buffalo, I think there is consensus that:

1. We still don’t have any accurate picture of what he describes here. Thus are unable to respond on whether his interpretation of it being an abuse is correct. Also, we don’t know what the reference to “teen Masses” mean. Is he saying that teen Masses are an abuse? What makes a teen Mass an abuse?
   2-5) Based on the description Buffalo provided, the backup he provided or my own understanding, I concur that these are abuses.
2. I concur at minimum that this is discouraged. I don’t know if there are special circumstances that would allow it. However, considering that the Real Presence has been consecrated, I doubt it.
3. This is allowed and not an abuse according to Buffalos post: “psalms arranged in metrical form” as per the example described by Joysong
4. We concur
5. I’m not sure that this would be characterized as changing the Mass. There are specific directions that certain prayers/processes are to be followed exactly (ie the Eucharistic Prayer) because of the importance of the words are critical to the “form and substance” while in other places the words are not quite so critical (i.e. the invitation/preamble to praying the the Confiteor). However, I think that adding the words “The Mass never ends” (which is a Teaching of the Church as per my earlier post) at the end of the dismissal may not be an abuse. I’d have to see something to the effect that the exact words are specifically spelled out. Ying believes that this could be an abuse.
6. We concur
7. I don’t know for sure what Buffalo observed so I don’t know if his application of the USCCB instruction is appropriate. In our Church, the choir is to the side of the sanctuary. Our parish is responsible for ministering to the deaf community in our city. The different choirs in our parish try to at least sign the refrain of most songs and have now learned to sign the Gloria and Holy Holy in an effort to communicate welcome to this special community. Is this a prohibited liturgical gesturing? Or how about when a deaf member signs the epistle readings with the interpreter providing vocal? Ying agrees generally that this is an abuse but asserts that there might be some gray with regard to youth Masses or special occassions.

Correct me if I’ve misrepresented anything.

 

[buffalo]

Orionthehunter:

If we were to go back to the 11 enumerated potential abuses by Buffalo, I think there is consensus that:

1. We still don’t have any accurate picture of what he describes here. Thus are unable to respond on whether his interpretation of it being an abuse is correct. Also, we don’t know what the reference to “teen Masses” mean. Is he saying that teen Masses are an abuse? What makes a teen Mass an abuse? during Masses for teens - adults and children are called up at Offertory and stand around the Altar in a half-circle until Communion)
   2-5) Based on the description Buffalo provided, the backup he provided or my own understanding, I concur that these are abuses.
2. I concur at minimum that this is discouraged. I don’t know if there are special circumstances that would allow it. However, considering that the Real Presence has been consecrated, I doubt it.
3. This is allowed and not an abuse according to Buffalos post: “psalms arranged in metrical form” as per the example described by Joysong
4. We concur
5. I’m not sure that this would be characterized as changing the Mass. There are specific directions that certain prayers/processes are to be followed exactly (ie the Eucharistic Prayer) because of the importance of the words are critical to the “form and substance” while in other places the words are not quite so critical (i.e. the invitation/preamble to praying the the Confiteor). However, I think that adding the words “The Mass never ends” (which is a Teaching of the Church as per my earlier post) at the end of the dismissal may not be an abuse. I’d have to see something to the effect that the exact words are specifically spelled out. Ying believes that this could be an abuse.
6. We concur
7. I don’t know for sure what Buffalo observed so I don’t know if his application of the USCCB instruction is appropriate. In our Church, the choir is to the side of the sanctuary. Our parish is responsible for ministering to the deaf community in our city. The different choirs in our parish try to at least sign the refrain of most songs and have now learned to sign the Gloria and Holy Holy in an effort to communicate welcome to this special community. Is this a prohibited liturgical gesturing? Or how about when a deaf member signs the epistle readings with the interpreter providing vocal? Ying agrees generally that this is an abuse but asserts that there might be some gray with regard to youth Masses or special occassions. (children going up into the Santuary and performing liturgical gestruing to a song played by the musicians. They move there hands, are dressed in white robes with flowing ribbons, they spin around, kneel down, and are facing the people - I don’t know how much more detail you want)

Correct me if I’ve misrepresented anything.

 

[YinYangMom]

Orionthehunter:

If we were to go back to the 11 enumerated potential abuses by Buffalo, I think there is consensus that:

1. We still don’t have any accurate picture of what he describes here. Thus are unable to respond on whether his interpretation of it being an abuse is correct. Also, we don’t know what the reference to “teen Masses” mean. Is he saying that teen Masses are an abuse? What makes a teen Mass an abuse?

Yeah, but I’m going to check my instruction manuals when I get home about this because I know for certain there is one dedicated specifically to Mass with children and teens.

2-5) Based on the description Buffalo provided, the backup he provided or my own understanding, I concur that these are abuses.

:yup:

1. I concur at minimum that this is discouraged. I don’t know if there are special circumstances that would allow it. However, considering that the Real Presence has been consecrated, I doubt it.

Warrants further research, imo. But I think we agree it shouldn’t be taking place every Mass every week.

1. This is allowed and not an abuse according to Buffalos post: “psalms arranged in metrical form” as per the example described by Joysong

Another one I’m going to look into because there is a book specifically addressing music and the liturgy at home.

1. We concur

:yup:

1. I’m not sure that this would be characterized as changing the Mass. There are specific directions that certain prayers/processes are to be followed exactly (ie the Eucharistic Prayer) because of the importance of the words are critical to the “form and substance” while in other places the words are not quite so critical (i.e. the invitation/preamble to praying the the Confiteor). However, I think that adding the words “The Mass never ends” (which is a Teaching of the Church as per my earlier post) at the end of the dismissal may not be an abuse. I’d have to see something to the effect that the exact words are specifically spelled out. Ying believes that this could be an abuse.

In the reference reading I have completed so far, that is not anything I’ve seen before. I will look into it further when I get home.

1. We concur
2. I don’t know for sure what Buffalo observed so I don’t know if his application of the USCCB instruction is appropriate. In our Church, the choir is to the side of the sanctuary. Our parish is responsible for ministering to the deaf community in our city. The different choirs in our parish try to at least sign the refrain of most songs and have now learned to sign the Gloria and Holy Holy in an effort to communicate welcome to this special community. Is this a prohibited liturgical gesturing? Or how about when a deaf member signs the epistle readings with the interpreter providing vocal?

Ying agrees generally that this is an abuse but asserts that there might be some gray with regard to youth Masses or special occassions.

Correct me if I’ve misrepresented anything.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

during Masses for teens - adults and children are called up at Offertory and stand around the Altar in a half-circle until Communion)

This is most helpful. I’m pretty certain it is allowed to have the children up there during a youth mass but I will look closely as to from when to when and whether or not adults also are allowed (usually they are with little ones because they are the guardians).

buffalo:

(children going up into the Santuary and performing liturgical gestruing to a song played by the musicians. They move there hands, are dressed in white robes with flowing ribbons, they spin around, kneel down, and are facing the people - I don’t know how much more detail you want)

This certainly seems interpretive and as such, prohibited, but again, I’ll see if it’s allowed for these specific teen/youth masses.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Buffalo:

1. Do they stand up in front of the altar below the sanctuary or behind the altar? I do recall that at one of my daughters 1st Communion the Pastor invited the 1st communicants to come up on the steps up to the Sanctuary where he sat down with them and gave the Homily specifically to the children about the magnitude of the Eucharist. By the way, he is now a Bishop for a missionary diocese and was our diocesan Canon Lawyer. I’d be hard pressed to believe he committed an abuse as he is pretty anal (I say that with total respect and admiration for him!)
2. This is done during what period of the Mass? In lieu of the homily?

 

[Joysong]

Dear Buffalo,

I can’t trust that judgement when the music director states “it doesn’t matter” or “I can’t play those responses because they don’t sound good on guitar so we’ll just pick a song that sounds good”. Sorry!

Can I assume that the congregation is able to respond to his “songs?” Or do you all sing it through together in entirety.

In fairness to the person, are you aware that there are 150 psalms? Some are so long that they are not even used in fullness when it is printed in the sacramentary - but there are only portions of a psalm.

Are you able to positively determine from your knowledge of all 150 psalms that the words of the song he chooses are NOT a psalm? That they are NOT appropriate for a response to the reading?

Our choir hymnal has all of the psalms listed in the index with a correlating hymn that contains its words. Do you know that this person is not liturgically correct in picking one of them, even though it is on guitar? {I’m just playing devil’s advocate here.) It takes someone saying the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours) four full weeks to go through all of the psalms, and that is only if they say the full psalter all day. So it is quite possible to miss the connection of the hymn unless you have a trained ear for psalms.

If it bothers you, can you attend a mass without guitar accompaniment?

Buffalo, have you thought about what the Mass proper is? Somebody posted on the forum that a soldier in the field of battle may not be able to hear the Liturgy of the Word, but only the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and still have it be a valid mass. If the Psalm, which is part of the Liturgy of the Word, is replaced with a hymn that does not contain the psalm, whose responsibility is it?

Will God hold you accountable if you sing what the guitarist selects? Is it really all that grave of an abuse to worry yourself about it? Do you honestly ask the guitarist each week if (s)he picked a song with the proper psalm in it? I pray that you give your spirit rest and not concern yourself about things that are not obvious to your ordinary ability to discern.

By the way, the above words are in a psalm: #131, “O Lord, my heart is not proud, nor are my eyes haughty; I busy not myself with great things, nor with things beyond my strength. Nay rather, I have stilled and quieted my soul like a weaned child. Like a weaned child on its mother’s lap, so is my soul within me.”

And there is a hymn that uses these words, rather popular, in fact: Like a Child Rests. Would anyone recognize it as a psalm?

Peace,
Carole