Liturgical Abuses - So what's the big deal?

[Quaere_Verum]

Carole,

I believe that God humbles and teaches us so much through our children. During the past 2 days of this post my 10 year old has exhibited some “I know better than you” behavior. Bingo! Thank you God for the insight! O.K. God, now you can poof her out of this stage. I’ve got it all figured out.

I have to give thanks to Our Blessed Mother since today during the Mass to honor her Immaculate Conception I asked for understanding. I had read so many wise posts on this thread and wanted understanding. It was during this Mass that I saw Father as just that - a Father. I told him, “Thanks for doing such a great job leading us.”

God Bless You,
Quaere Verum
Seek the Truth

 

[buffalo]

Joysong:

Dear Quaere,

What profound insight in your last post!

I honestly believe it is the spiritual development of the teenager that is present in much of the antagonism going on. I’m embarrased to admit this, but at one time in the early stages of my growth, I highlighted all those areas in my bible where the prophets spoke their woes to the shepherds who mislead God’s flock. I was upset with some of the things I observed and thought the clergy were trying to lead us astray. (You don’t even want to see my bible! )

Maybe it is good for me to remember my teen years in the spirit, for I have much empathy for those who are at this stage. Have you read laments from those grieving parents asking how to handle their teens? The wise parents whose children have grown up tell them, “Be patient, this too, shall pass!”

When I grew into more of an adult, spiritually, my whole outlook changed and that’s why I am now so very defensive of our clergy. What I know to be true, though, is that the words of adults seldom get through to a teen, for they KNOW better. I guess it doesn’t prevent us from trying, though.

Bless you,
Carole

Are you suggesting the liturgical abuses I have listed are somehow the result of an immature teenage faith formation?

 

[fix]

I should like to come back to the way that worship was presented, in a liturgical compendium, as a “project for reform”, and thus as a workshop in which people are always busy at something. Different again, and yet related to this, is the suggestion by some Catholic liturgists that we should finally adapt the liturgical reform to the “anthropological turn” of modern times, and construct it in an anthropocentric style. If the Liturgy appears first of all as the workshop for our activity, then what is essential is being forgotten: God. For the Liturgy is not about us, but about God. Forgetting about God is the most imminent danger of our age. As against this, the Liturgy should be setting up a sign of God’s presence. Yet what is happening, if the habit of forgetting about God makes itself at home in the Liturgy itself, and if in the Liturgy we are only thinking of ourselves? In any and every liturgical reform, and every liturgical celebration, the primacy of God should be kept in view first and foremost.

adoremus.org/1104OrganicLiturgy.html

Silly cardinal, I hope he grows up.

 

[Joysong]

Silly Cardinal? Some more of your sarcasm, Fix?

It is not the clergy that were referred to, but those who believe they know more than the clergy. Read my post again.

+++

And Buffalo, of course I do not think that your listing abuses is a result of “immature faith formation.” Nor was I referring to anyone in particular, but what I have observed, in general, on the forum from time to time. What I believe Quaere and I were discussing is the spirit of rebellion when the teenager is confronted by law. As a well-known author said Sunday on EWTN, “assent” to law is viewed as “how little need I obey?” … also, “dissent” is frequently personal license to lobby and rally the faithful against the magisterium.

Isn’t that what teens do? Get on the phone and complain bitterly that the curfew is 10 PM rather than 11:00? Why must they go home earlier, when all their friends are permitted a later time? They moan and groan to all who will listen, disrespecting parental authority. It is not a mature response.

Adults who observe problems with law go about it in a worthier manner. They do not carry suspicions of wrong-doing about every action that “instinct” presents to their thinking.

As for true abuse in parental law, YYM gave an excellent post about this several pages ago. We need to confront these situations as adults with true understanding and charity, believing the parent may have good motives. If the matter is blatantly, gravely evil, then authorities must be contacted. But an hour difference in a curfew is not a grave abuse. It seems some have a problem discerning what is grave and what is a once-in-awhile occurrence that is not motivated by deliberate intent to take the faithful down a slippery slope.

Carole

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

Are you suggesting the liturgical abuses I have listed are somehow the result of an immature teenage faith formation?

No, buffalo, not at all!

They’re saying spiritual growth is something which matures over time…how much time no one knows…how long each phase lasts or when it begins is not something set in stone…

They are suggesting people like you and fix are in the ‘teenage’ phase…where everything is so literal, to the point, black/white and you honestly believe ‘knowing’ things literally is the same as ‘knowing’ things in context overall. Perhaps that’s why in Spanish there are two separate words for ‘to know’: Saber and Conocer…each gets translated into english as ‘to know’ but in when speaking spanish it makes a definite difference which verb one uses. Saber is to know facts, figures, things. Conocer is to know on a personal level, deeper, familiar, ingrained kind of thing.

Anyway, teens think they know it all and will live forever, as they mature, they realize there was more to what they knew than what they saw at the time they thought they knew it.

Perhaps people like you are challenging because you feel empowered with the knowledge you possess and feel justified in doing so, where others, like myself, look at the bigger picture so that while, yes, the abuses are occuring, and you are correct in identifying them and acting to stop them, they aren’t hurting the faithful in their receipt of the graces they seek through the sacrifice of the Mass.

I’m not in the ‘adult’ phase of the faith by any means, but I think I’m on the brink between “teen” and “adult”. Could be wrong…my guess is I’m in that senior year of college stage…definitely out of high school, though. If graduate work lies ahead then I’m still far from ‘adult’, imo. That’s ok, I love the journey for all it reveals along the way.

 

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

No, buffalo, not at all!

They’re saying spiritual growth is something which matures over time…how much time no one knows…how long each phase lasts or when it begins is not something set in stone…

They are suggesting people like you and fix are in the ‘teenage’ phase…where everything is so literal, to the point, black/white and you honestly believe ‘knowing’ things literally is the same as ‘knowing’ things in context overall. Perhaps that’s why in Spanish there are two separate words for ‘to know’: Saber and Conocer…each gets translated into english as ‘to know’ but in when speaking spanish it makes a definite difference which verb one uses. Saber is to know facts, figures, things. Conocer is to know on a personal level, deeper, familiar, ingrained kind of thing.

Anyway, teens think they know it all and will live forever, as they mature, they realize there was more to what they knew than what they saw at the time they thought they knew it.

Perhaps people like you are challenging because you feel empowered with the knowledge you possess and feel justified in doing so, where others, like myself, look at the bigger picture so that while, yes, the abuses are occuring, and you are correct in identifying them and acting to stop them, they aren’t hurting the faithful in their receipt of the graces they seek through the sacrifice of the Mass.

I’m not in the ‘adult’ phase of the faith by any means, but I think I’m on the brink between “teen” and “adult”. Could be wrong…my guess is I’m in that senior year of college stage…definitely out of high school, though. If graduate work lies ahead then I’m still far from ‘adult’, imo. That’s ok, I love the journey for all it reveals along the way.

You mean to say I cannot have both at the same time? And who is to say what stage is the adult phase? Perhaps you are in your infancy.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

All these posts has me asking some more questions. Sorry for asking & asking, but this is how I learn.

1. Are liturgical abuses more prevalent in one country vs. another? If so, why? I may be wrong but the complaints re: liturgical abuses seem to come from people in the U.S. It may be that these are the only people I’ve heard, & so I have a skewed view.
2. Are complaints of abuses or deviations from the GIRM, whether gross abuses or minor deviations, more prevalent in one country vs another? Why?

I think this is a very important question because if abuses or deviations are no different in one country vs. another yet more complaints are being heard in one country then what does that say about the people of that country? Are they more vigilant? Are they more knowledgeable? Are they more judgemental? Are they more prideful? Do they believe they know better than the clergy?

It makes me think of the poor parent who is trying to discipline their tantruming child in public. Before you know it somebody comes up to tell them they are abusing their child. Now, every time they try to do something in the best interest of the child they have to be concerned about all those untrained or overtrained & judgemental eyes waiting to point out their faults.

This may not even fit in this thread. If so, let me know, & I’ll get another going.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

You mean to say I cannot have both at the same time? And who is to say what stage is the adult phase? Perhaps you are in your infancy.

We all have whatever God gives us…if you get all three, yeah! :dancing:
if you get one, yeah! If you don’t get any :crying: …

For all I know I could be in my infancy…doesn’t matter to me…I’m just grateful to be on the journey wherever it may lead.

the point is we most likely are not all on the same level at any given time so we really need to remain patient and charitable along the way. Enjoy the ride, people, even with the frustrations and sufferings and roadblocks. It’s all good.

 

[buffalo]

Quaere Verum:

All these posts has me asking some more questions. Sorry for asking & asking, but this is how I learn.

1. Are liturgical abuses more prevalent in one country vs. another? If so, why? I may be wrong but the complaints re: liturgical abuses seem to come from people in the U.S. It may be that these are the only people I’ve heard, & so I have a skewed view.
2. Are complaints of abuses or deviations from the GIRM, whether gross abuses or minor deviations, more prevalent in one country vs another? Why?

I think this is a very important question because if abuses or deviations are no different in one country vs. another yet more complaints are being heard in one country then what does that say about the people of that country? Are they more vigilant? Are they more knowledgeable? Are they more judgemental? Are they more prideful? Do they believe they know better than the clergy?

It makes me think of the poor parent who is trying to discipline their tantruming child in public. Before you know it somebody comes up to tell them they are abusing their child. Now, every time they try to do something in the best interest of the child they have to be concerned about all those untrained or overtrained & judgemental eyes waiting to point out their faults.

This may not even fit in this thread. If so, let me know, & I’ll get another going.

I submit the more orthodox the country the less you will see abuses and innovations.

 

[YinYangMom]

Quaere Verum:

All these posts has me asking some more questions. Sorry for asking & asking, but this is how I learn.

1. Are liturgical abuses more prevalent in one country vs. another? I may be wrong but the complaints re: liturgical abuses seem to come from people in the U.S. It may be that these are the only people I’ve heard & so have a skewed view. Why?

It seems abuses are especially bad here because there seem to be so many exceptions from Rome with regard to the U.S. I really don’t understand why Rome doesn’t require the exact same thing from our bishops as any other…but I could be wrong…it just seems that way reading through these documents.

1. Are identification of abuses or deviations from the GIRM, whether gross abuses or minor deviations, more prevalent in one country vs another? Why?

No clue.

I think this is a very important question because if abuses or deviations are no different in one country vs. another yet more complaints are being heard in one country then what does that say about the people of that country? Are they more vigilant? Are they more knowledgeable? Are they more judgemental? Are they more prideful?

It certainly means they aren’t clueless. Right or wrong, at least they’re reading up on things.

It makes me think of the poor parent who is trying to discipline their tantruming child in public. Before you know it somebody comes up to tell them they are abusing their child. Now, every time they try to do something in the best interest of the child they have to be concerned about all those untrained or overtrained & judgemental eyes waiting to point out their faults.

Interesting observation.

This may not even fit in this thread. If so, let me know, & I’ll get another going.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

I submit the more orthodox the country the less you will see abuses and innovations.

“Orthodox the country” as in how the government is set up and managed?

 

[buffalo]

“Orthodox the country” as in how the government is set up and managed?

The Church in general. As in a diocese in the US that is orthodox versus heterodox.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

buffalo:

I submit the more orthodox the country the less you will see abuses and innovations.

First off, I like seeing the passion for the faith that you show.

I agree with what you said above; that makes sense. But do you also believe that there may be some countries where we’ve become hyper-vigilant? Possibly due to the occurance of gross abuses we feel the need to always be monitoring every move the priest makes. I say this because sometimes I feel I do this and am trying to find a balance between standing up for the integrity of the Most Holy Eucharist yet maintaining a right attitude during Mass. It’s not easy.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

YinYangMomIt seems abuses are especially bad here because there seem to be so many exceptions from Rome with regard to the U.S. I really don’t understand why Rome doesn’t require the exact same thing from our bishops as any other…but I could be wrong…it just seems that way reading through these documents.

Isn’t this the truth? I saw a post above, I think by Joysong where the document mentioned “adaptations for the U.S.” It makes you wonder. Is our nation really the troubled child? If guided correctly they can either become the worst kind of trouble or the most loyal and strongest defenders of the family. That is if countries are like people.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

The Church in general. As in a diocese in the US that is orthodox versus heterodox.

oh. ok.
so in a diocese which is orthodox are you looking at the diocese as the people who live within the physical boundaries of said dioces or at the heads of the diocese who lead the people?

I’m thinking about how diocesan boundaries remain the same, while the people who reside within them come and go, as do the bishops and other Church representatives do…so is the orthodoxy tied to leadership or the faithful???

I’m thinking that may be where most of the trouble lies…shifting demographics and leadership within physical boundaries, thus resulting in mixed messages and confusion.

 

[buffalo]

Quaere Verum:

First off, I like seeing the passion for the faith that you show.

I agree with what you said above; that makes sense. But do you also believe that there may be some countries where we’ve become hyper-vigilant? Possibly due to the occurance of gross abuses we feel the need to always be monitoring every move the priest makes. I say this because sometimes I feel I do this and am trying to find a balance between standing up for the integrity of the Most Holy Eucharist yet maintaining a right attitude during Mass. It’s not easy.

Based on some of the contributing posters posts the orthodox places were kind of surprised to see some of the abuses I listed. Their reactions until further investigation showed they had their mind in the right place. I want my mind in the right place. I also want the true liturgy.

A question for ponderance - with regard to hyper-vigilance - should we be hyper vigilant to insure Holy Communion is not defamed in any way? Or if it falls on the floor just be so so about it.

If your mindset is to protect the treasures and Tradition of the Church then one has to be vigilant in its defense.

 

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

oh. ok.
so in a diocese which is orthodox are you looking at the diocese as the people who live within the physical boundaries of said dioces or at the heads of the diocese who lead the people?

I’m thinking about how diocesan boundaries remain the same, while the people who reside within them come and go, as do the bishops and other Church representatives do…so is the orthodoxy tied to leadership or the faithful???

I’m thinking that may be where most of the trouble lies…shifting demographics and leadership within physical boundaries, thus resulting in mixed messages and confusion.

I would say it starts with the leaders and what they will allow when they become aware.

 

[YinYangMom]

Quaere Verum:

Isn’t this the truth? I saw a post above, I think by Joysong where the document mentioned “adaptations for the U.S.” It makes you wonder. Is our nation really the troubled child? If guided correctly they can either become the worst kind of trouble or the most loyal and strongest defenders of the family. That is if countries are like people.

Yeah, but then I see the news about the Church in Spain and other countries who seem to be flailing as well…so I really don’t know what’s going on, except to say that Satan is encroaching powerfully and pervasively way too close for my comfort. I’m getting angry at him more than anything else. If bishops and cardinals and priests err it’s because of Satan plain and simple, imo. I wish we’d all just see the elephant in the room and start attacking it instead of the piles of poop he leaves behind Attack with the rosary, non-stop!

 

[Quaere_Verum]

buffalo:

Based on some of the contributing posters posts the orthodox places were kind of surprised to see some of the abuses I listed. Their reactions until further investigation showed they had their mind in the right place. I want my mind in the right place. I also want the true liturgy.

A question for ponderance - with regard to hyper-vigilance - should we be hyper vigilant to insure Holy Communion is not defamed in any way? Or if it falls on the floor just be so so about it.

If your mindset is to protect the treasures and Tradition of the Church then one has to be vigilant in its defense.

Yes, vigilance is importance. Righteous indignation when our Lord is abused is also important. What I am personally battling with here is knowing how to be vigilant without it becoming a prevelant part of what I do in Mass. Then, I lose my prayerful attitude.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

A question for ponderance - with regard to hyper-vigilance - should we be hyper vigilant to insure Holy Communion is not defamed in any way? Or if it falls on the floor just be so so about it.

Well then, certainly #2 and #3 in your examples would warrant vigilance on your part and would not be considered ‘hyper’ by any means.

The others, is where because of #2 and #3, as you noted casting a shadow of doubt over the rest, could be construed as ‘hyper’ because while possibly abusive, do not invalidate the Eucharist.

But really, I understand completely the position you’re coming from with regard to your parish.