Liturgical Changes and Benedict XVI

[JKirkLVNV]

I personally hope the Holy Father bans “liturgy committees,” though I doubt he’ll be that much of a micro-manager. I think that would go a long way to clearing away some abuses. We don’t need them. We have a liturgy, we have a priest, he may need help from an altar guild, but that’s it. Liturgy committees are too often an excuse for people shining the spotlight on themselves.

 

[netmilsmom]

ByzCath:

So your answer is to have the Mass done in a language no one understands?

Speak for yourself, my Friend! I and many Roman Catholics DO understand the Latin. Those are just some of the people I am talking about. I asked my sister (who is 49) if she could say the sign of the cross in Latin. She spouted it off and the Agnus Dei and the Our Father and the Gloria! It was great for my girls (7 & 5) who are studying it now.
I attended one TLM. I was an adult. I never remember seeing Holy Mass in Latin. Yet, in my new Parish we do the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei all in the traditional language. It has taken only a couple months to be able to sing along without looking at the guides.

ByzCath:

People travel to a Mass, such as a Polish Mass, because they want to hear the Mass in Polish, which could be considered the vernacular for the majority who attend such a Mass.

Some people in my area travel to hear it in their veracular, some travel because they are tired of the innovations of the churches in our area. I have friends that travel into Hamtramck (not the best area) not to exactly hear the mass in Polish , but rather because they have gotten used to the Polish in order to get a more conservative mass.
I recently attended a funeral in Polish. It wasn’t that hard to understand, even for my girls. We followed along just fine. But there also weren’t any dancing girls or hand holding.

Honestly, I just think it would be a great idea to offer a Latin Mass to those who want it. It may not be for everyone but should not be limited when some would like it.
It’s okay to have a revival Mass but a Latin Mass is limited? There is something wrong there.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Speak for yourself, my Friend! I and many Roman Catholics DO understand the Latin. Those are just some of the people I am talking about. I asked my sister (who is 49) if she could say the sign of the cross in Latin. She spouted it off and the Agnus Dei and the Our Father and the Gloria! It was great for my girls (7 & 5) who are studying it now.

That is great but, unfortunatly, I believe that you are in a minority. Latin isn’t taught as it should be.

I attended one TLM. I was an adult. I never remember seeing Holy Mass in Latin. Yet, in my new Parish we do the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei all in the traditional language. It has taken only a couple months to be able to sing along without looking at the guides.

This is also great, but if we are to have more Latin in the parishes then I think the majority of people should know more Latin, not just enough Latin to get through the Mass.

Some people in my area travel to hear it in their veracular, some travel because they are tired of the innovations of the churches in our area. I have friends that travel into Hamtramck (not the best area) not to exactly hear the mass in Polish , but rather because they have gotten used to the Polish in order to get a more conservative mass.
I recently attended a funeral in Polish. It wasn’t that hard to understand, even for my girls. We followed along just fine. But there also weren’t any dancing girls or hand holding.

Yes, this is something I hope are new Holy Father addresses.
The answer is not to go to Latin, the answer is to stop the abuses.

If all that happens is that they require Latin to be used then you will have all the same abuses but with Latin being used.

Honestly, I just think it would be a great idea to offer a Latin Mass to those who want it. It may not be for everyone but should not be limited when some would like it.
It’s okay to have a revival Mass but a Latin Mass is limited? There is something wrong there.

Latin Mass is not limited. The Tridentine Latin Mass is limited. That is its use is only by indult and the Bishop must approve.

The current Mass can be done in Latin or partially in Latin. It just seems that there is not much of a demand for this.

I would love it if one of the Masses offered every Sunday was in Latin, but then you would have people who attend that Mass who don’t want the Latin and will complain about having to go to a different Mass.

There are a whole bunch of issues on this.

The main thing in my mind is that the use of Latin will not end the abuses of the Mass.

 

[netmilsmom]

ByzCath:

Yes, this is something I hope are new Holy Father addresses.
The answer is not to go to Latin, the answer is to stop the abuses.

If all that happens is that they require Latin to be used then you will have all the same abuses but with Latin being used…

I fear you are correct.

ByzCath:

Latin Mass is not limited. The Tridentine Latin Mass is limited. That is its use is only by indult and the Bishop must approve.

The current Mass can be done in Latin or partially in Latin. It just seems that there is not much of a demand for this.

I would love it if one of the Masses offered every Sunday was in Latin, but then you would have people who attend that Mass who don’t want the Latin and will complain about having to go to a different Mass…

The question is, Is it actually being offered? We have a Wednesday morning mass in Latin. It’s stuffed.

ByzCath:

There are a whole bunch of issues on this.

The main thing in my mind is that the use of Latin will not end the abuses of the Mass.

But actually the discussion started because a poster said that those who support the TLM are dividing the church more than the modernists. My contention is that if the TLM was offered everywhere, we may see it come back big time, so why not try it? We can’t be divided much more than what we are.

BTW, I am teaching my children Latin not only for the Holy Mass but also for the root words.
It will be easier for them to become Doctors when they understand the roots!

 

[miguel]

Ignatius:

Wouldn’t a general indult for TLM nullify their objections, unless they want to directly contradict HH Benedict XVI?

The parish priest who might want to say the TLM still has to deal with his foot-dragging bishop. The foot-draggers don’t care about thwarting the Pope’s intent. They proved that under Pope John Paul II.

 

[tuopaolo]

ByzCath:

So your answer is to have the Mass done in a language no one understands?

They will understand it if a translation is provided side by side in the Missal or missalette. Also even without following along in the missalettes, they will understand it if Latin is mixed with English with parts being said in Latin one day and English the next. Those who are already famliar with the English will understand it also. For example:

Pater Noster Our Father

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist nor even any courses in Latin to realize that Pater means Father since Pater looks similar to words that are related in meaning to Father like for example: patrimony, patriarch. Noster would be known by anyone who has studied Romance languages where the word is similar and once you realize Pater is Father, you’ll easily see that Noster is Our.

Another example:

Agnus Dei Lamb of God

It’s easy to see that Dei means God (in the genitive case) since Dei is similar to English words like Deity. Then one can see that Agnus means Lamb.

If one has a basic understanding that Latin like many other languages employs cases, one will quickly recognize various words as being of various cases from the context even if one doesn’t know all the case endings.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tuopaolo:

They will understand it if a translation is provided side by side in the Missal or missalette. Also even without following along in the missalettes, they will understand it if Latin is mixed with English with parts being said in Latin one day and English the next. Those who are already famliar with the English will understand it also.

I do not agree with a full Latin Mass with the only way for the majority of people to understand is to read along in a side by side missalette.

But the second option, I can understand as that is how many of our Byzantine Churches do it.

For example, us Ruthenians, some of it is in Church Slavonic and the rest (majority) is in English. That is when the majority of the parish do not know Church Slavonic.

When the majority knows it, then more, if not all, is done in it.

 

[pnewton]

tuopaolo:

If one has a basic understanding that Latin like many other languages employs cases, one will quickly recognize various words as being of various cases from the context even if one doesn’t know all the case endings.

The problem is not understanding the words, which can be done, but understanding them well and quickly. Even though I can follow along certain Latin songs syllable by syllable and even though I can study the words and get a feel for the meaning, I do not think in Latin. Much of the Mass is a prayer to God and when I am singing along in Latin, I am "praying: with empty syllables and without the benefit of the intellect. However, praying the “Our Father” brings richness each time precisely because I understand readily what I am saying.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

pnewton:

The problem is not understanding the words, which can be done, but understanding them well and quickly. Even though I can follow along certain Latin songs syllable by syllable and even though I can study the words and get a feel for the meaning, I do not think in Latin. Much of the Mass is a prayer to God and when I am singing along in Latin, I am "praying: with empty syllables and without the benefit of the intellect. However, praying the “Our Father” brings richness each time precisely because I understand readily what I am saying.

Very well put! This is how I feel. I wish for a wider Indult for those who desire the TLM, an abuse-free NO, and liturgical peace in the Church. The first order of business is to get the ICEL to get the translations done, then run them by Pope Benedict. I doubt he allows anything questionable to slip through.

 

[netmilsmom]

pnewton:

The problem is not understanding the words, which can be done, but understanding them well and quickly. Even though I can follow along certain Latin songs syllable by syllable and even though I can study the words and get a feel for the meaning, I do not think in Latin. Much of the Mass is a prayer to God and when I am singing along in Latin, I am "praying: with empty syllables and without the benefit of the intellect. However, praying the “Our Father” brings richness each time precisely because I understand readily what I am saying.

Wow, that’s funny because when I pray in Latin, I feel closer to God.
I’ve only been hearing it since November but somehow I feel that I’m praying with all of my family and the communion of Saints that prayed this way.
It made it even better watching the Vatican Holy Masses and hearing it there.
I guess it’s all how you look at it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Wow, that’s funny because when I pray in Latin, I feel closer to God.
I’ve only been hearing it since November but somehow I feel that I’m praying with all of my family and the communion of Saints that prayed this way.
It made it even better watching the Vatican Holy Masses and hearing it there.
I guess it’s all how you look at it.

Probably a good reason to have both.

 

[netmilsmom]

JKirkLVNV:

Probably a good reason to have both.

I say an “Amen” to that!
I just don’t get the idea of “Anything but Latin” in the churches of our area. Oh and Mary, she’s taboo too.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I just don’t get the idea of “Anything but Latin” in the churches of our area.

I want to address this. I do not think it is “Anything but Latin”, I think it is more along the lines of “Lets us the Languages people speak.”

 

[tuopaolo]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Wow, that’s funny because when I pray in Latin, I feel closer to God.
I’ve only been hearing it since November but somehow I feel that I’m praying with all of my family and the communion of Saints that prayed this way.
It made it even better watching the Vatican Holy Masses and hearing it there.
I guess it’s all how you look at it.

Praying in a sacred language, that is, a language reserved for or to which is reserved, to one extent or another, public prayer, imbues the prayer itself with an objective character of holiness which causes the mind and heart to more easily be lifted and raised up to God, Mary and the whole sacred communion of saints and angels.

 

[tuopaolo]

ByzCath:

I want to address this. I do not think it is “Anything but Latin”, I think it is more along the lines of “Lets us the Languages people speak.”

You know in many schools around the world, both high schools and collegiate schools, learning one or even more than one foreign language is required. In some of these schools as it so happens learning Latin is required. Indeed in some places becoming a member of certain professions requires one to have learned Latin. Instruction in Latin is more widespread in Australia and Europe than it is in America.

If one is required by many schools to have learned one or more foreign languages, sometimes including Latin, it seems a little odd that people would object to being required to merely have the casual acquaintance with Latin necessary to fully understand the liturgy in Latin.

 

[netmilsmom]

ByzCath:

I want to address this. I do not think it is “Anything but Latin”, I think it is more along the lines of “Lets us the Languages people speak.”

Honestly, in my area, anything traditional is a no go. It’s not a matter of just the Latin, it’s also Mary, the Rosary, traditional prayers, etc.
My Wonderful Pastor is under a Bishop in Slovakia. He goes against the Moderists in the Diocese and we are growing out of our church. As people find out about us, we are packed. We have grown to 750 families in a church that holds 200.

I love our parish but my heart goes out to the people I left behind at my old parish. While my daughter is in the procession wearing a blue cape for May Crowning and says a decade of the Rosary each CCD class, those I left behind NEVER say a traditonal prayer to start any meeting. One of my friends there had to fight to say the Rosary for vocations before mass. When she organized a Rosary on World Vocation Day, the Pastor did not show up and the DRE left after Mass.

It’s a wasteland out there. Actually, it’s more than the Latin for us.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tuopaolo:

Praying in a sacred language, that is, a language reserved for or to which is reserved, to one extent or another, public prayer, imbues the prayer itself with an objective character of holiness which causes the mind and heart to more easily be lifted and raised up to God, Mary and the whole sacred communion of saints and angels.

So then when I go to the Vatican and use an ATM Machine to get some cash and I pick the Latin on it I am using a “sacred language”, a language reserved for prayer?

This is one of the issues I have with those who push Latin, they are almost superstitious. As if Latin is some magical language.

I know that is not what you are saying but that is they way it comes off sometimes.

You are aware that Mary, Jesus, and the Apostles did not speak Latin. That when Latin became the language of the Latin Catholic Church that it was the vernacular and that is why the change from Greek occured.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

ByzCath:

So then when I go to the Vatican and use an ATM Machine to get some cash and I pick the Latin on it I am using a “sacred language”, a language reserved for prayer?

QUOTE]

Get out! The Vatican ATMs offer Latin as a language choice? Are you being serious, ByzCath?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tuopaolo:

You know in many schools around the world, both high schools and collegiate schools, learning one or even more than one foreign language is required. In some of these schools as it so happens learning Latin is required. Indeed in some places becoming a member of certain professions requires one to have learned Latin. Instruction in Latin is more widespread in Australia and Europe than it is in America.

I am aware of that, now let me ask, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

If one is required by many schools to have learned one or more foreign languages, sometimes including Latin, it seems a little odd that people would object to being required to merely have the casual acquaintance with Latin necessary to fully understand the liturgy in Latin.

Again, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China.

This has nothing to do with the issue here. When I was in high school there was only two language options, French and Spanish. Latin is not offered in any high schools I am aware of, not even Catholic ones. Yes that is a problem. But decrying that does not change the fact that the majority of people in the pews today do not know Latin and will not take the time to learn.

As was stated earlier by another poster. For myself, to pray in Latin I must know Latin, not just have a “casual acquaintance” (what ever that is) with it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

JKirkLVNV:

ByzCath:

So then when I go to the Vatican and use an ATM Machine to get some cash and I pick the Latin on it I am using a “sacred language”, a language reserved for prayer?

Get out! The Vatican ATMs offer Latin as a language choice? Are you being serious, ByzCath?

Yes I am, the ATMs inside of the Vatican have Latin as one of the languages you can choose. Latin is the offical language of the Vatican State.