Liturgical Music Borderline Sacrilegious????

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promethius said:
I’m sorry, I have a hard time believing you’re not being hyperbolic when you claim that the sanctus was set to “We are the champions”.
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emmaberry said:
Here are youtube videos (the Sanctus is pretty rough because we hardly remember the end!) The kids are my little brother and sister. 🙂

youtube.com/watch?v=G1NHBKLVE5g

youtube.com/watch?v=53cFQc69pEQ&feature=youtu.be
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Well, there you have it brother P, as unlikely as it may have seemed …
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Oh my goodness those are cute videos 🙂 Well I certainly don’t find that those tunes add to the sacred character of the mass. LOL. Is this the kind of thing they do at Life Teen masses?
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That’s what I’ve seen at LT Masses whenever I am forced to attend one.
 
TheMc said:
That’s what I’ve seen at LT Masses whenever I am forced to attend one.
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I suppose that “whomp whomp whomp” beat in the Alleluia could inspire awe in a person and prepare them to hear the Gospel. It doesn’t work for me since I know the words to the song. I would find it really distracting! But I wouldn’t want to outright condemn the people who think this is a good thing. Our reactions to music are so different for each person. 🙂
 
Neil_Anthony said:
I suppose that “whomp whomp whomp” beat in the Alleluia could inspire awe in a person and prepare them to hear the Gospel. It doesn’t work for me since I know the words to the song. I would find it really distracting! But I wouldn’t want to outright condemn the people who think this is a good thing. Our reactions to music are so different for each person. 🙂
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Ok, let’s be serious here. Liturgical music is not a free for all. Liturgical music is not whatever we want it to be.
 
TheMc said:
Ok, let’s be serious here. Liturgical music is not a free for all. Liturgical music is not whatever we want it to be.
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I think liturgical music should help us think of God. I’ve heard a LOT of “proper” liturgical music that made me want to run away or cry because it was so slow and depressing. By the time mass is over the life has been sucked out of me to the extent that I can barely make it out to the car. I think its really important that old slow people aren’t allowed to turn mass into something that puts the younger people to sleep, that’s all. I wouldn’t choose these particular songs but at least someone is trying to solve the problem.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
I think liturgical music should help us think of God. I’ve heard a LOT of “proper” liturgical music that made me want to run away or cry because it was so slow and depressing. By the time mass is over the life has been sucked out of me to the extent that I can barely make it out to the car. I think its really important that old slow people aren’t allowed to turn mass into something that puts the younger people to sleep, that’s all. I wouldn’t choose these particular songs but at least someone is trying to solve the problem.
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But the point of Mass isn’t to entertain. And, it is much easier to think of God and feel joy and awe in our traditional liturgical music if you make a greater effort to think of God and the wonderful things He’s promised outside of Mass, period, outside of Music, every day. We shouldn’t -need- certain kinds of music to bring our minds to God.

Edit: And, the Mass is about our celebrating WITH God in the Sacrifice…do you really think He finds “Another One Bites the Dust” appropriate for that? Could you imagine it playing at the foot of the Cross?
 
Lochias said:
But the point of Mass isn’t to entertain. And, it is much easier to think of God and feel joy and awe in our traditional liturgical music if you make a greater effort to think of God and the wonderful things He’s promised outside of Mass, period, outside of Music, every day. We shouldn’t -need- certain kinds of music to bring our minds to God.

Edit: And, the Mass is about our celebrating WITH God in the Sacrifice…do you really think He finds “Another One Bites the Dust” appropriate for that? Could you imagine it playing at the foot of the Cross?
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I agree that mass isn’t to entertain.

Instead, the songs should be an expression of our worship. My favorite gospel acclamation is the celtic alleluia because it clearly expresses the awe and excitement we feel about the gospel. When I was a kid, the song “another one bites the dust” really gave me feelings of awe. Maybe for certain people it is a way to express awe.

But I agree that “another one bites the dust” seems un-sacred to me. But the sense of the sacred in music is subjective, IMO, and what is sacred to one person may not be sacred to the next. I can imagine a person who sees that song as a way to express reverence and awe. (Not me though)
 
This has been an interesting thread to monitor, especially as an Eastern Rite Catholic. In our tradition, the entire Divine Liturgy (with the exception of the Prayer before Communion, recited by all in unison) is chanted using methods and a system of chant tracing back to the fourth century. The system of chant, although unique in rendition among various Byzantine Rite churches (Greek, Slavic, etc.), is based on common principles and practices so as to exhibit a consistent structure across Churches of the Byzantine Rite. It is also relatively diverse, especially with respect to the most “moveable” parts, which generally are used for hymns reflective of the day’s feast or commemoration of saints, etc. It’s always familiar in that regard, yet never overly repetitious.

There is a collection of para-liturgical hymns that evolved over time, normally used before and after the Divine Liturgy and other services in the cycle of worship. As we are a traditional people, usage of new variations of hymns and even revival of very old ones that may be unfamiliar to some congregations often create a stir among the faithful. I could not imagine what would happen if, one day, someone were to come in and completely reinvent this wheel.

Just before the Divine Liturgy begins, the priest concludes his preparatory prayers (taken silently, but we can often hear) before the altar. The final line of the final prayer of the priest is from Psalm 51:
O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise!
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A final reminder of how we worship …

We are often asked by our Latin Rite brothers and sisters and other visitors, "Why no organ? musical instruments? only singing (chant)? In Eastern tradition, we only use the gifts God gave us (voice), made in His image, to worship Him as is done in Heaven. We are reminded throughout the course of the Divine Liturgy of the Cherubim and Seraphim, singing their unending hymns of praise. We are all about “Theosis” in the East, and our liturgical practice emphasizes such with our chant tradition. If we are truly to be closer to God in our Church (representing Heaven on Earth), we do as is done in Heaven.

As we are fond of reminding ourselves, “When you sing joyously to the Lord, you pray twice!” The prayer and the rendering are combined to the glory of God.

Just some food for though, from your brothers and sisters of the East …
 
ByzCathCantor said:
This has been an interesting thread to monitor, especially as an Eastern Rite Catholic. In our tradition, the entire Divine Liturgy (with the exception of the Prayer before Communion, recited by all in unison) is chanted using methods and a system of chant tracing back to the fourth century. The system of chant, although unique in rendition among various Byzantine Rite churches (Greek, Slavic, etc.), is based on common principles and practices so as to exhibit a consistent structure across Churches of the Byzantine Rite. It is also relatively diverse, especially with respect to the most “moveable” parts, which generally are used for hymns reflective of the day’s feast or commemoration of saints, etc. It’s always familiar in that regard, yet never overly repetitious.

…
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We in the Latin Rite shared many of these chant traditions until they were thrown out by our modernists. Some of us, however, still subscribe to this way of thinking, but in my part of the country, at least, we are a small minority.
Many of our younger folks have never even heard our Gregorian Chants in church.
 
roadsend said:
We in the Latin Rite shared many of these chant traditions until they were thrown out by our modernists. Some of us, however, still subscribe to this way of thinking, but in my part of the country, at least, we are a small minority.
Many of our younger folks have never even heard our Gregorian Chants in church.
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How sad.

We have an ex (failed?) opera-trained singer who puts on quite a show every week.
 
Kerry77 said:
How sad.

We have an ex (failed?) opera-trained singer who puts on quite a show every week.
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It is indeed sad that so few people don’t believe what the church believes about sacred music and the liturgy.
 
roadsend said:
We in the Latin Rite shared many of these chant traditions until they were thrown out by our modernists. Some of us, however, still subscribe to this way of thinking, but in my part of the country, at least, we are a small minority.

Many of our younger folks have never even heard our Gregorian Chants in church.
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I love Gregorian chant, and it has many similarities to Byzantine chant. Both have monastic origins and influences.

Interestingly, there have been a few pop / rock songs that borrowed from Gregorian chant. Perhaps there is a compromise to be had … 🙂

In examining use of contemporary music, we should fairly remember that even in its day, despite direct commissions from the Church itself, many of the lasting works of Baroque-era and later masters were often dismissed as “too theatrical” for liturgical use, drawing attention away from the Mass itself. Many in favor of use of modern forms of music use this as an argument in favor of the “adaptations” as mentioned in this thread. The argument roughly goes … since such works survived with popularity to this day, and by modern standards would not be considered as harshly, we should thus feel free to use contemporary music liberally, as it will be judged less harshly in the future.

However, this is an ill-formed argument in two respects. First, the works from these eras were set from the very inception to Sacred Scripture with music offered to respectfully project such Scripture to the faithful. Composers of the day would not have set such to folk tunes (yes, someone might throw “Greensleeves” out to contest this statement, but that would not be on point here). In this regard, these works would meet the basic standards of liturgical music even in the strictest sense in Eastern tradition. Second, even accounting for possible excesses of the largest of egos involved (e.g. Mozart, by reputation), one could sense from these works even today that they were intended for the glory of God.

Somehow, I don’t think that’s what Freddie Mercury had in mind …
 
ByzCathCantor said:
First, the works from these eras were set from the very inception to Sacred Scripture with music offered to respectfully project such Scripture to the faithful. Composers of the day would not have set such to folk tunes (yes, someone might throw “Greensleeves” out to contest this statement, but that would not be on point here).
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Hey now. 😃

Actually, setting What Child Is This to Greensleaves is a recent work, done in the mid-19th century. In contrast, the beautiful patrimony of chant is far older, so it doesn’t in any way contradict the fact that sacred works of the Gregorian and Byzantine traditions never used secular melodies for their compositions.

Please don’t misunderstand the crux of my argument. My intention was never to argue that secular music should be used in liturgy. In fact, much to the contrary, I believe that sacred music should retain pride of place in liturgy. I only brought up Greensleaves as a thought experiment for people to realise that the use of secular melodies in liturgy has been a more gradual and insidious process than people tend to admit, and we often tend to overlook these other instances where secular music have sneaked into liturgy and hymnody. If we are to guard against the profanation - if one would wish to use such a strong term - of sacred music, we must be vigilant for such things. 🙂
 
Filii_Dei said:
Hey now. 😃

Actually, setting What Child Is This to Greensleaves is a recent work, done in the mid-19th century. In contrast, the beautiful patrimony of chant is far older, so it doesn’t in any way contradict the fact that sacred works of the Gregorian and Byzantine traditions never used secular melodies for their compositions.

Please don’t misunderstand the crux of my argument. My intention was never to argue that secular music should be used in liturgy. In fact, much to the contrary, I believe that sacred music should retain pride of place in liturgy. I only brought up Greensleaves as a thought experiment for people to realise that the use of secular melodies in liturgy has been a more gradual and insidious process than people tend to admit, and we often tend to overlook these other instances where secular music have sneaked into liturgy and hymnody. If we are to guard against the profanation - if one would wish to use such a strong term - of sacred music, we must be vigilant for such things. 🙂
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Understood - points well taken! Greensleeves is a folk tune, and oddly enough (in this context) I’ll confess “What Child is This” is one of my most favorite Christmas songs. My only point was that the music composed by Bach, Mozart and others of their eras was originally intended for sacred use, not adapted for it, and was set to Scripture from the onset. This is not comparable to recasting popular melodies of the day to Scripturally based hymns within the Liturgy.

Peace be with you! And may your music be sacred! :gopray2:
 
Lochias said:
And, the Mass is about our celebrating WITH God in the Sacrifice…do you really think He finds “Another One Bites the Dust” appropriate for that? Could you imagine it playing at the foot of the Cross?
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Exactly! Another One Bites the Dust as a prelude to Jesus’ holy death on the cross? Not okay!

The Mass is about Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for our sins, and the liturgy should be an expression of our praise and awe for Jesus. The liturgy shouldn’t be something to get us ‘pumped up’ and excited, not because being excited during mass is wrong but we can easily forget that the music is not about US and how we FEEL…it is for God.

That last bit is something I find especially disturbing, being a Catholic convert from Fundamentalism. Literally, every other Sunday you would walk out of ‘church’ going,
“…I don’t know, the music wasn’t that good this week…I didn’t get much out of Church today.”

^That is one thing I found refreshing in the Catholic Church-the Mass is for God’s glory, not your feelings. The Mass is all about giving God worship in the way He has seen fit to ask for it from the Church…so all these efforts to ‘draw people in,’ while good intentioned, miss the point! We are there to worship God, not with “Ooooh this song/tune is neat! Yeah! God is awesome! :)” Mass is supposed to be humble, reverent, and ALL ABOUT JESUS. Not that Mass can’t be fun too, because we should LOVE being at Mass! But ‘fun’ and good tunes are not the point and we need to remember that.

PS-I am a teenager and have many devout Catholic friends who understand that liturgical music should be reverent…they are not desperate for all this ‘hip’ knock off Catholic-esque Mass music that pops up during Lifeteen Mass. People think teenagers are only going to listen and be engaged in Mass if there are soaring electronic drumbeats, etc. Teenagers are smarter than that-don’t underrate their intellegence or ability to understand Mass just as it is. IMO, most teens that feel they NEED that ‘big music’ during Mass are a result of being poorly catechized.

Did everyone see the youtube videos that wanted to? I am taking them down soon…
 
emmaberry: what a great post, especially the P.S. 😃

It’s really great to hear that some of the legacy of Blessed John Paul II’s outreach to our youth lives on, even with those like yourself who were likely barely (if at all) exposed to him personally before he was called to eternal rest.

And yes, as a father of two very bright teenagers (and an observant 7 yr old), I am reminded daily that you cannot (nor will not) be fooled!

Bless you!
 
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