Live 8

[gnjsdad]

vern humphrey:

Yes, they do choose to be impoverished.

Now they don’t do it by muttering, “Rich or poor? Rich or poor? Which do I want to be?”

They make their choices by the sum of what they do and fail to do – in the US, people choose poverty by failing to take advantage of education, dropping out of school, taking drugs and committing crimes.

In other nations, they often choose poverty as an alternative to throwing out the corrupt governments that oppress and impoverish them.

And giving aid to those governments (as opposed to giving it directly to the people) merely makes the ruling classes richer and more able to oppress the rest of the people.

There is an excellent opinion piece by Taki in the latest American Conservative dealing with the narcissistic self-aggrandizement engaged in by many of the performers at Live 8, and how their efforts are misplaced. Instead of Edinburgh, they should be marching on Nairobi.

Canceling the poor countries’ debts may sound noble, but we went through that in the 1990s, and it made absolutely no difference. And the debt has not exactly piled up because of usurious interest rates, either. Forty years to repay at zero interest sounds too good to be true to the rest of us, but that’s what those so-called African leaders have been getting. Where has the moolah gone? That’s an even easier question to answer. To Swiss bank accounts, armaments, handouts to political friends, private jets, mansions, brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, friends. You name it, the African dictators have spent it.

Why does poverty seem like such an intractible problem in Africa? One reason, counterintuitively, is foreign aid as it’s distributed now.

It is illegal in most African states to start a business without a license. And licenses are granted to or sold to those with government connections. The aid that is given to African countries to enable them to escape from the poverty trap sustains thugs like Mugabe, Abacha, and Taylor and enables them to become seriously rich.

 

[Lost_Found]

Off topic, I’m curious does anyone know how much the celebrity performers are donating towards Africa? All are multi-millionaires, and the opening act had a billionaire. Aside from showing up like everyone else, schmoozing with the rich and famous, and then cashing in on free publicity, I’m wondering how much $ they each “donated”.
This would show great leadership on their part, before asking “the leaders” (ie the not-so-millionaire taxpayers) to give their share. I watched a total of about fifteen minutes of these worn-out faded tired sloppy-looking clowns jumping around trying to re-capture their glory days. Most made their names from shocking parents and generally degrading the moral fabric of the western world. Sorry but they don’t inspire me, I’m looking a little deeper now than what they have to offer. (Heaven forbid turning to God.)

 

[rlg94086]

milimac:

“For this reason, people from the world’s richest countries should be prepared to accept the burden of debt reduction for heavily indebted poor countries, and should urge their leaders to fulfill the pledges made to reduce world poverty, especially in Africa, by the year 2015,” stated the message from the Vatican.

“His Holiness prays for the participants in the rally and for the world leaders soon to gather at Gleneagles, that they may all play their part in ** ensuring a more just distribution of the world’s goods,” ** added the message. “In the ardent hope that the scourge of global poverty may one day be consigned to history, he cordially imparts his Apostolic Blessing.”

I join the Pope and others in praying for a way to reduce and eventually end poverty. While I’m not completely against the debt reduction, I believe it is a false hope to believe it will help with this goal. I also can’t agree with our country’s leaders distributing wealth globally. How exactly are people (including our Pope) proposing we do that?

I believe the best way is to spread freedom and build up these poverty stricken places by helping them become a part of the global marketplace. This can happen with investment of money, education, etc. While government leaders can and should encourage it, private individuals are the best vehicle to get it done. If canceling the debts will help, by all means I’m for it. However, others have already pointed out why this has not worked in the past.

Robert

 

[Ani_Ibi]

rlg94086:

I believe the best way is to spread freedom

How to wrest power from the dictators?

rlg94086:

build up these poverty stricken places by helping them become a part of the global marketplace. This can happen with investment of money, education, etc.

We are going to have to do something about manifesting fair trade. This will involve circumventing the local African goudgers and only buying through agents who pay African labourers fair wages with health and education packages. This will be dangerous work, because the local rich landlords will be very unhappy and very unscrupulous.

rlg94086:

While government leaders can and should encourage it

Yeah, there has got to be some protection, some ‘leverage.’ That is the job of government and media.

rlg94086:

private individuals are the best vehicle to get it done.

Yes. Give birth to the ‘African Dream.’

 

[walstan]

vern humphrey:

And giving aid to those governments (as opposed to giving it directly to the people) merely makes the ruling classes richer and more able to oppress the rest of the people.

Yes, your quite right, they rip of their own people and then salt their (our) money away, in our banks, invested in our companies, contributing to our economy, so which rich are getting richer I wonder? and who poorer?

 

[walstan]

Strange, I don’t remember the Samaritan asking the inn keeper to justify any extra expenditure or to him insisting on how his money should be spent. Have we missed a message here?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

walstan:

Yes, your quite right, they rip of their own people and then salt their (our) money away, in our banks, invested in our companies, contributing to our economy, so which rich are getting richer I wonder? and who poorer?

How to wrest power from the dictators?

 

[OriginalJS]

One thing. Don’t be upset because of a complaint that the US hasn’t done “enough.”

Most beneficiaries of government largess always complain that what they get is “never enough.”

The U.S. Military with its billions and billions annually never has enough.

Public Schools never have enough.

Churches never, never, never have enough.

I once went to a church that paid off all its debts and was in the clear. Immediately the board started looking for something to go into debt for so the congregation wouldn’t think they had (heaven forbid) “done enough.”

This is just human nature - all of these organizations are black holes waiting to happen.

If you doubt this, tell me the time when the public schools in any state said to the taxpayers,“You know, right now and for the next few years we have enough. There is no need for the legislature to worry about us for awhile.”

Or when did a pastor ever say, “You know, we are in good shape for the next year or so. Why don’t you divert some of the money you were going to give to the church to some other worthy cause?”

 

[Ani_Ibi]

walstan:

Strange, I don’t remember the Samaritan asking the inn keeper to justify any extra expenditure or to him insisting on how his money should be spent. Have we missed a message here?

Presumably, the Samaritan expected the man found on the road to be cared for. In the case of Africa, the aid money is not getting to those who need care. It is highway robbery. Someone said it is the poor in rich countries giving to the rich in poor countries. This parable raises many questions. Was the Samaritan passing the buck, throwing money at the problem instead of giving personal succor? If the Samaritan were Jesus, what would He have done? Did something happen between the time the Samaritan picked up the stranger and the time he dropped him off at the inn?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

OriginalJS:

all of these organizations are black holes waiting to happen.

True.

However, bottom line for the African death rate is? When do we stop doing the wrong thing and start doing the right thing? Btw, what is the right thing?

 

[Lost_Found]

What you have is the classic problem of how to influence an unwanted foreign regime. This is done in a number of ways: One way would be sheer military might – but that costs in lives and money, and you are generally hated for doing this. Another way is to throw money at the unwanted foreign regime but with strings attached. Again a problem, because you don’t have enough of a presence to ensure money is being spent properly.

Finally there’s the approach used by Romans throughout the empire, and the English in Ireland/North America, France in Quebec, Spain in the Americas. It is the cheapest method and the most effective – colonization. History shows that your objective is achieved regardless as to how much in common the settlers have with the indigenous peoples. However, the more in common, the less friction. A settlement would be best achieved by those of African descent from western developed countries. I think they would have much ability to contribute and would care more for their ancestral peoples and blend more seamlessly.

Still has its problems but the least lousy of all lousy options.

 

[walstan]

I just decided to read all the posts in this string, I timed myself, it took a little over 13.5 minutes. (some bits I had to read twice as I didn’t believe how some people can live with themselves). In that time sixty eight children died in Africa. Do you really think the Dollar and preserving your lifestyle are worth that? Tell me what is worth more, a million dollars or one child?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Lost&Found:

Finally there’s the approach used by Romans throughout the empire, and the English in Ireland/North America, France in Quebec, Spain in the Americas. It is the cheapest method and the most effective – colonization. History shows that your objective is achieved regardless as to how much in common the settlers have with the indigenous peoples. However, the more in common, the less friction. A settlement would be best achieved by those of African descent from western developed countries. I think they would have much ability to contribute and would care more for their ancestral peoples and blend more seamlessly.

Still has its problems but the least lousy of all lousy options.

Brillig Lost & Found! Sounds like a new thread. There has been some talk in the States about African Americans wanting a new American state as a homeland in reparation for the era of slavery. What is the thinking about a homeland in Africa: I mean an actual American state in Africa conceived as a homeland for Americans of African descent as opposed to simply re-entering African life on a piecemeal basis?

 

[Hildebrand]

vern humphrey:

Now, if we are to truly help the people in Africa and some other areas, we can only do it if they have honest, democratic governments committed to improving the lot of the people.

And the people themselves must play the major role in making that happen.

Don’t worry, the corruption is not too bad, nothing that more money won’t solve. Keep on throwing $$$ at the problem and all will be right with the world.

"KOINANGE: Over the years, billions of dollars in aid have been siphoned. Today, Nigeria’s foreign debt has ballooned to more than $35 billion… Among Ribadu’s recent cases, the arrest of a state governor with a suitcase full of money at London’s Heathrow Airport. And she forced Nigeria’s inspector general of police resign after more than $10 million was allegedly discovered in his bank account.

These examples, though, are a mere drop in the bucket when you consider the amount of money stashed illegally in overseas accounts by Nigerians. Ribadu puts that figure at more than $20 billion. Of course the ultimate victims of this rampant corruption are ordinary Nigerians."

transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/04/ywt.01.html

 

[rlg94086]

Hildebrand:

Don’t worry, the corruption is not too bad, nothing that more money won’t solve. Keep on throwing $$$ at the problem and all will be right with the world.

Great post. I was given some great advice in my first job (credit/collections): “First, stop the bleeding!”

When people are siphoning money, the worst thing you can do is send more money…