Living with a Jehovah witness

[jcrichton]

Hi, Tom!

Have you noticed how you are arguing from both ends?

You don’t Believe Christ; yet, you hope you can attain a good eternal life… yet, you are determining what is Just for God to do or not do… is that not a personal construct?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[6857g]

Hi jcrichton,
Thank you for those passages they really clear up so much. I will keep them written down on my note book for when the time comes that I can help my husband know the real truth of our Heavenly Father.
I also want to share with everyone my current situation on living with a Jehovah’s Witness.
So things have been a bit rocky as I had mentioned previously, well last night (reason why I’m up at 1am) my husband and I started talking about a situation that is going on with someone in his congregation. Usually I don’t (name removed by moderator)ut I just listen as I’m usually scared it will turn into an argument or him putting my beliefs down, last night was different guys. I asked God in prayer to guide my words so that I can plant a seed of the real truth in my husbands heart and I was able to have the courage to speak my mind it was beautiful, I hadn’t been able to do that in such a long time. We talked about many things as one topic led to the next we ended up on the 1914 date which my husband said that the Catholic Church agreed with the JWs on for some time and then dismissed it because it meant that the end of the world was near and that we Catholics couldn’t have that. So I asked what was so special about this date, how they came about it and another question that he couldn’t answer… he said he had to look more into it as to which I replied yes please do and get back to me on it, and if you don’t mind I will do my own research on it I think I will ask the father of my parish. To which he said sure but then later said you’d know what before you go asking and looking around elsewhere, let me talk to the elder(we’ll call him Bob) i study with and listen to what we have to say about it. I then replied, “but why? You mention that the Catholics agreed with this date and it’s importance but that they then changed their minds so the father I speak to should have some interesting information on it as well as other devoted Catholics.” He then after a moments pause said “you’re right, go ahead and do that and I will also look into it.”
We agreed to do our research and come together and share the information we gather. Guys I share this with you so that you can pray for us. Pray for my husband so that the Holy Spirit guides his heart to the real truth, the truth the church that was founded by Jesus Christ. Please keep us in your prayers as I can see that prayer is a powerful and beautiful gift from God. I will later on mention some of the other topics he shared with me like what he mentioned about the 144,000 so that you all wonderful people can help me understand this so that I can help my husband better understand scripture.
May God bless you all wonder people always. Thank you all so so much

 

[Glark]

I’m very sorry to read of your problems. Many years ago I became involved with the JWs. I studied the Bible with them for quite some time and attended all their meetings and read all their literature, so I know a fair bit about them.
But I eventually become disillusioned with many of their teachings, and I also found their attitudes to other Christian denominations to be very bigoted, mean-spirited, ugly or just plain stupid. They hate most of all the Catholic Church, believing it to be totally false and demonic and “The Whore of Babylon”. They don’t hesitate to distort history in order to paint the Catholic Church as evil.

JWs also keep to themselves as much as possible and are forbidden to read non-JW religious literature or listen to non-JW preachers. These are symptoms of a CULT. I strongly advise you to keep away from them and devote yourself to the one, true Church that Jesus founded - the Catholic Church. If you have any questions about what JWs teach and believe, you could ask a Catholic priest for advice - that’s part of their job. Don’t listen to a JW - they might sound like they know what they’re talking about, but they don’t teach the truth. Satan is the “father of lies”, and he hates the Catholic Church.

JWs have also made several predictions about when the world will end - all of which were false, of course. So, besides all their other faults, they have proven themselves to be false prophets.

JWs also have their own Bible, which is not a true Bible because they’ve changed some of the words to suit their false teachings - mostly to deny that Jesus is God (John 1:1 is the most infamous example). When I discovered this fraud, it was the last straw; I immediately cut my ties with them and never went back.

Perhaps it would be best if you didn’t talk to your husband about Bible matters at all. It sounds like it’s causing you both too much stress. Besides, even the best Catholic theological in the world can’t make sense to a JW with a closed mind! Many JWs are so brainwashed that only the Holy Spirit can reach them. Which is why you need to pray for your husband - that’s the first thing one should do and in a case like this, sometimes it’s the only thing one can do. Leave in the hands of the Lord.

God bless you.

 

[adf417]

Prayers abound!

And may the peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you and your family.

 

[adf417]

Hi Tom and greetings,

It sounds like you are runnung into the “their interpretation of scripture makes as much sense as yours so why should we believe your interpretation?” argument. As an agnostic, who do you believe has the right to interpret the Holy Scriptures? More spacifically the NT?

Dont you agree that if this question is not resolved then we can go on for ever trading interpretations and proof texts to our own satisfactions?

Peace!!!

 

[Vico]

Jcrichton, concerning Mark 12:26-27, those Christians who believe in soul sleep point out that in verse 26 Jesus is talking about the issue of the dead rising again, so about the future resurrection. So they will argue that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living in a way in that they will be revived and live forever, since Jesus was talking about their resurrection.
Concerning Mt. 10:28, I am frankly not sure how those Christians who believe in soul sleep interpret the first part of the verse, but they mostly interpret the second part as that we have to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in geenna, that is in the lake of fire, which is the second death, they will be destroyed there and won’t live any more, no more consciousness, they will be totally destroyed, totally dead, so no immortality of souls.
Concerning Gen. 2:7, in Hebrew it says that man became a living nephesh, meaning a living soul. So they will interpret this as soul meaning the living person. And in the Bible, a living animal is also a nephesh, a soul.

The soul is eternal and can be destroyed and yet still exist.
The word destroy there (Strong’s Concordance G622) is:

• apollymi
  I. to destroy
  a. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
  b. render useless
  c. to kill
  d. to declare that one must be put to death
  e. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
  f. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
  II. to destroy
  a. to lose

ἀπόλλυμι apóllymi, ap-ol’-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

I am glad that there’s communication between you and your husband… sadly, even those who purport to be in fellowship with God forget that God is Love… the first rule, the only rule that counts! We must engage each other with Love and patience… yes, the human condition lead us to confrontation and pride but we must fight it… so I hope that you continue to collaborate helping each other grow in the Faith.

Now, the most difficult thing that I find with all Believers (as well as non-Believers) is that there are so many topics/themes that are involved in the search for Truth (Christ); instead of addressing one single element at a time we jump from one topic to the other… granted some themes require it because they are intertwined… yet, I find that it is better to tackle one item at a time (as in a line-item veto) so that we can better understand and internalize its value/meaning.

I am willing to work with you on the forum or PM, if some find it objectionable (something I really don’t understand about all this legalism instead of charitable exchange and contribution), to address the issue point by point.

However, you could also make a list of items and open one thread at a time, moving to the next topic when you feel you fully comprehend the presently posted topic.

I have engaged the JW several times; I can’t say that I understand them but I have come to know some of their concerns and tactics.

I will keep you in my prayers; I hope that everyone on this thread do so as well.

May the Holy Spirit Strengthen your resolve to remain in the Faith and to lead your husband and your family to the truth (Christ Jesus).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Tom!

The problem is ‘piece work.’

When you take Sacred Scriptures and you interpret/read/do exegesis or eisegesis one a piece or several pieces removed from the entirety of Sacred Scriptures you are bound to form all sorts of theologies that are not conductive to the Truth (Jesus).

Here’s the passage cited:

17:3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 17:4 I have glorified you on earth and finished the work that you gave me to do. 17:5 Now, Father, it is time for you to glorify me with that glory I had with you before ever the world was. 17:6 I have made your name known to the men you took from the world to give me. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 17:7 Now at last they know that all you have given me comes indeed from you; (John)

This is the Name that Jesus made known to the Apostles, Jesus Christ… and for those who reject the Holy Trinity, Here’s the only other Name that Jesus made known:

28:19 Go, therefore, make disciples of all the nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (St. Matthew)

Can you follow the meaning of the Revelation: One Name: the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit; One Name: Jesus Christ: One Name the Father.

Now how did the Apostles understood this, that it s Yahweh (I AM)?

Well Jesus also Revealed that:

8:58 Jesus replied: ‘I tell you most solemnly, before Abraham ever was, I Am’. (St. John)

…of course this does not mesh with JW’s theology so they do some Chinese acrobatics and attempt to derail what is Revealed by claiming ‘no, that’s not the same as the Revelation to Moses…’

Why are they able to understand Jesus Word in such contrived manner? Well, it is simple: they divorce the Word of God from the Word of God–just look at the verse following Jesus’ Declaration that He is the I AM!:

8:59 At this they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself and left the Temple.

Are we to believe that it was forbidden for Jews to express themselves as the first person singular: I am? Rather, we can see from the context that Jesus’ Revelation is taken very seriously; that the Jews understand that Jesus has yet again made Himself Equal to God!

Now, let’s look into the mind of the Apostles in comparison to the Revelation in John 17:3-7:

5:20 We know, too, that the Son of God has come, and has given us the power to know the true God. We are in the true God, as we are in his Son, Jesus Christ. This is the true God, this is eternal life. (1 St. John)

This is the mind of the Apostles; this is Apostolic Teaching; they are in the True God, they are in the Son, that is the True God and Eternal Life.

There’s no need for “interpretation.” It is not being in Yahweh (or the derivative Name Jehovah); it is Being in Jesus Christ that the Apostles Celebrate and Teach!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Tom!

But the lake of fire remains; we are not given what happens with those who are placed in it.

Still, the fact remains, hell, the place where their worms do not die… have you ever experienced a corpse… nature has the ability to reclaim organic matter… a worm in a fiery eco that does not die cannot mean that it is done and over… it suggest continuance.

However, we do not truly know what will take place after Judgment. It could well be that all evil will cease by consumption/destruction… but the fact remains, spirit is not consumable by mere fire.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Tom!

I think that I was addressing the Mormon’s issue of theology not the Jehovah Witnesses!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Tom!

I concur with you that what is understood from revelation is often not what God has Revealed.

Yet, consider that all life came to be because of God’s Word: “Be.”

Contrary to man’s life, God actually Breath His essence into man. It is the reason why man is not simply a creature of instinct.

‘Let us Create man in our Image and Likeness.’ ‘God is spirit…’

Clearly, what was Revealed and Understood in the Old Covenant continued to find its true definition in the New Covenant.

Jesus opens the veil; He also expresses not to fear the one who can kill the body or if you prefer the essence of temporal life which in the past was equated with the soul or the blood. But to fear the One who can take both the temporal life and the soul/spirit (that which does not die by the physical means).

Clearly, man must have been Created differently than all others in Creation!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[6857g]

Hello crusader13,
Could you give me some information on how the JWs came up with the year 1914 and why they hold it so dear. Also my husband mentioned that the Catholics agreed with this “prophecy” of the 1914. I would appreciate your help with where did they get it and can it be proved as false through the Bible.

 

[6857g]

Hi Tom,
So everyone is right in their own way is what I’m understanding frI’m your message

 

[adf417]

So what good is it for you to quote from a book which you say you have no authority to interpret other than your own best guess?

Peace!!!

 

[Crusader13]

II will do my best to summarize it for you, but keep in mind that this date and the society’s teachings that surround it are very complex, especially when you factor in the multiple changes that have occurred to their doctrine since their original understanding of this date.

Well their teaching of 1914 is crucial to the Watchtower’s entire belief system. Originally it was thought that 1914 would be the end of the system of things (end of the world). They even admit this when you read it in their “Gods Kingdom Rules!” book.

When the time of their proposed end of the world came and went, they needed to modify their teaching and its application of this date. So now what they believe is that in 1914 Jesus returned, (invisibly) and began ruling in Heaven. During this time Jesus also began to examine all the other Christian denominations and found them to be (weeds). Hence the reason they refer to the parable in Matthew about the Wheat and the Weeds. This “examination” occurred from 1914 – 1919, when Jesus established that the “true Christians” were the bible students founded by Charles Taze Russell and thus began the establishment of the modern-day Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The reason they started using 1914 to begin with is based largely upon their “bible chronology”. They believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607B.C. even though most biblical and secular historians assign the date of 587 B.C. as to be more accurate. From the date of 607 B.C. they apply a time of 2,520 years, incorrectly taken from Daniel 4, and hence you get 1914, October 1914 to be more precise. This time span is sometimes referred to as “The time of the Gentiles” or the “appointed times of the nations”, which they take from Luke 21:24.

The reason it is incorrect is because their application of Daniel is not referring to the time they apply it to. They basically took Rev 12: 6, 14 and determined that if 1,260 days is referred to as 3 ½ times, they assumed that the seven times spoken in Daniel 4 is 2, 520 days. However, they use the “day equals a year” symbolism found in Numbers 14 and Ezekiel 4 to determine that 2, 520 days is therefore 2, 520 years.

However, I’ve never read or heard of any Witness claiming that Catholics also upheld the prophecy of 1914. I’ve gone thru quite a few of their videos as well and have yet to find them making that claim. Perhaps you can ask him to cite the source or show you where exactly he read that at?

 

[Crusader13]

Proving it false isn’t difficult per se. It just requires more study into Eschatology (the end times) and how Prophetic books like Daniel and Revelation should be interpreted. One of the best talks ever given is by Brant Pitre. The talk is called Jesus and the End Times: A Catholic View of the Last Days.

It’s a great introduction into end times prophecy and how it relates to Catholic Eschatology. You can also download the handout and use it to follow along.

Like every previously failed end times prediction, their understanding of 1914 did not come to fruition and they looked to Scripture to explain their errors. They found it in Proverbs 4:18 “But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, That shines brighter and brighter until the full day.” This passage along with the Psalm 97:11 “Light is sown like seed for the righteous And gladness for the upright in heart.” Is used to explain why their previous teachings were incorrect. As the end draws near, Jehovah will bless them with more “light” (their doctrine) will become clearer until the end of this present system of things.

Just remember the Light hasn’t gotten brighter for them it has completely changed! It doesn’t make sense that the Holy Spirit would lead their faithful into error! It’s not as if their partial or incomplete truths have slowly shown themselves to be factual, they’ve had to outright alter, dismiss, deny and abandon old teachings when they haven’t been proven true. That doesn’t sound like the Church Jesus was talking about when He said He would send the Holy Spirit to lead them in all Truth!

 

[adf417]

I dont have a problem with you quoting from the bible, you are certainly free to do so even if this were not a free country.

I just dont understand how you think anyone should expect your interpretation holds any authority when you profess that it can not, thats all.

You mentioned the book of Mormon. Do you really expect a Mormon to allow you to interpret their book differently than they do with meaning? Has that ever been succesful? Or a Muslim?

Peace!!!

 

[Crusader13]

Correct, however, one of the biggest issues is that Daniel 4 isn’t generally considered an end times prophecy. The seven times spoken of in Daniel 4 doesn’t equate with the 2,520 years that the Witnesses claim it does. It is disputed as to the exact time it represents, but this doesn’t mean that the Society is correct in its interpretation of this verse merely because they have attempted to decipher it. The seven times was taken out of context and made to fit into their overall eschatology of Jesus and His return. The start and end of the 70 years isn’t usually considered a key piece of Prophecy when dealing with the foretold birth of Christ and the beginning of his Kingdom.

This is a prime example of what happens when you take a verse in Scripture and try to apply it to a particular teaching with no textual basis for it.

From a purely logical standpoint, you can see the motives behind the Society’s teachings and subsequent revisions of their doctrine of 1914. They must show that something did in fact happen during that year, something written about or alluded to in Scripture. The Second Coming of Christ is typically understood to signify the destruction of this world. When this didn’t happen in 1914, they implied that Jesus did come invisibly and is now ruling in Heaven and the “Last Days” started in 1914 and it’s merely a matter of time before the world ends.

Soon, their teachings on the “Overlapping Generation” will also need to be altered and sadly it will be done under the banner of “The Light is Getting Brighter.”

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Tom!

…again, the problem is attributing what they want to what they believe. St. John is not offering several Gods, nor does any of the Apostles. The One True God is the One from the Old Covenant: Yahweh/YHWH; it is being in the Son; not holding the Son as some semi/demigod that is True Life.

Just for your edification, only One Person of God Revealed it:

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (St. John 14)

The problem that Jehovah Witnesses and Oneness Pentecostals have is that they want to understand God not as He Reveals Himself but as they are able to assimilate… they hold on to things in Scriptures that to them points them to the truth while ignoring God’s Revelation.

Do I understand what God Revealed? Yes. Completely? No. So I allow His Revelation to be the Authority not my understanding.

…it is ridiculous to suggest that Jews got so angry at Christ that they wanted to kill Him because he “claimed to have existed before Abraham.”

Does this not force a huge red-flag to appear in your mind?

Could you honestly say that if someone claimed to have lived in Adam’s neighborhood and have negotiated land and water rights with him a bunch of Jews would be running amuck, and try to kill him?

Yet, if we allow Revelation to dictate what takes place we find that Jesus is making it clear to them that He is the Immanuel, the God-with-us, that is suppose to Visit the Temple!

This Revelation takes place several times… and sometimes it is included with a subtle underlined built-in “proof-text:”

24 But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men, 25 And because he needed not that any should give testimony of man: for he knew what was in man. (St. John 2)

22 Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, “Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? (St. Luke 5–interestingly enough, their concern was that Only God has the Power to Forgive)

8 But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there. (St. Luke 6–here, Jesus makes it a point to display His Authority and Power)

39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.” 40 Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.” (St. Luke 7–this Pharisee is schooled by Jesus without having uttered a single word… which brings us to St. Matthew 5:28–God Knows our intimate thoughts and desires!)

Rationalizing Scriptures does not make them God’s Revelations; rather, it assures that man’s dictate takes place ahead of God’s Truth!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Tom!

I’m still trying to understand this “new” system; I cannot recall if you or someone else mentioned the Mormons or if it was from another thread… so I was responding to who their theology… which ends in man becoming elevated into god and going out into the universe and populating the planets (like the old sci-fi seeding the universe with dna, thing).

So if it is not part of this particular thread, I apologize for the confusion.

The old system tracked every thread to which I subscribed and gave notice; the new system only sends out notices when there’s a direct reply… so the numbers pile up (blue icon) next to the topics and by the avatar.

Maran atha!

Angel