LOL at atheist "logic" (more like nonsense!)

[ribozyme]

Ribozyme;

Probably no less an authority than Steven Weinberg in his article, “Life in the Universe,” Scientific American, October 1994.

The pertinent quote is “Life as we know it would be impossible if any of several physical quantities had slightly different values…One constant does seem to require incredible fine tuning.”

The constant Weinberg is referring to is the energy of the Big Bang which he quantifies the tuning as one part in 10 to 120th.

Yes, Ribozyme, if the energy of the Big Bang were different by one part out of

10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000

there would be NO life anywhere in our universe.

Pax Christi,

Jonathan

Well, I agree with Weinberg’s analysis as I heard of the cosmological constant problem before. Quantum field theories predict this would be 10^123 of its observed value. If this value was higher than its present value, galaxy formation would be prevented in the early universe. However, there are other solutions to this problem, such as invoking eternal inflation: stanford.edu/~alinde/

It is not the energy of the big bang, but it is the vacuum energy of the universe. This is describe quite well in layman’s terms in chapter 2 of The Cosmic Landscape: String Theory and the Illusion of Intelligent Design.

 

[ricmat]

Midarth,

If you went to Mars and found an SUV like vehicle sitting in the sand, you would conclude that it was designed, and did not fall together by itself. But you deny something so much more grand because of (probably) your pride.

BTW - I disagree with the title of this thread in general. It’s not nonsense, it’s an attempt to make sense of the world. God wants us to use our capabilities, reasoning, science and so forth to investigate his universe, so we can greater appreciate His beauty and power and love. So from that perspective it’s a worthy cause.

But you guys are certainly predictable. Your arguments are not new, or novel, or modern, or better formulated than those talked about 2500 years ago.

God actually left you a message. It’s worth reading and considering:

usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom13.htm

[the first half of the chapter]

and from Romans 1

For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.

Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;

for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.

While claiming to be wise, they became fools

 

[Mirdath]

Midarth,

If you went to Mars and found an SUV like vehicle sitting in the sand, you would conclude that it was designed, and did not fall together by itself. But you deny something so much more grand because of (probably) your pride.

I would conclude that either alien life existed on Mars or that somebody had been there before me and dropped a Suburban on the place. Pride has nothing to do with it.

BTW - I disagree with the title of this thread in general. It’s not nonsense, it’s an attempt to make sense of the world. God wants us to use our capabilities, reasoning, science and so forth to investigate his universe, so we can greater appreciate His beauty and power and love. So from that perspective it’s a worthy cause.

Thanks, so do I

But you guys are certainly predictable. Your arguments are not new, or novel, or modern, or better formulated than those talked about 2500 years ago.

Oh, they’re better, just as your arguments have moved on from Anselm. And if we’re so predictable, why can’t you prove us wrong?

God actually left you a message. It’s worth reading and considering:

usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom13.htm

[the first half of the chapter]

and from Romans 1

I’ve read it, considered it, found it flawed and wanting, and found no reason to think it was a message from any deity. Not to slam many of the other messages found in the bible – a lot of them have great ethical and personal merit, but again I have no reason to think they came from God. Same with many other religions’ holy texts and many non-religious works.

For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.

They say. They were just as human as I am, and just as fallible as I am.

Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;

for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.

I do not know God; no mortal can comprehend the infinite, after all. ‘Know’ is a poor choice of wording here anyway, as it implies a reasoned belief rather than a fact taken on faith. Claiming something is understandable and perceivable means nothing unless it actually is so. People drop acid and understand and perceive things all the time, and they don’t make any sense to others.

While claiming to be wise, they became fools

I’ve never claimed to be wise; I’m just alive and curious. You however claim to know better, to have been imparted wisdom and understanding from God and your church?

 

[ricmat]

I would conclude that either alien life existed on Mars or that somebody had been there before me and dropped a Suburban on the place. Pride has nothing to do with it.

snip…

I’ve never claimed to be wise; I’m just alive and curious. You however claim to know better, to have been imparted wisdom and understanding from God and your church?

First item: Thank you for making my point.

So why wouldn’t you just accept the fact that the SUV is there. And that it has “properties”. And that it just exists, with no design or designer, and no purpose. You accept these things for the universe which is much more complex. But you know that the SUV is designed, and the universe is not?

In terms of pride. The pride I’m talking about is Pride - saying that you don’t need God, you don’t want God, God is irrelevant. The first of the cardinal sins and the pathway to the deepest level of hell (well, at least according to Dante).

Second item: My appreciation of the universe is primarily based on my scientific understanding of it. I am willing to accept the beauty and glory of the universe as having been created, by God, because that’s were the evidence leads.

God intended us to figure out the universe using reason, logic, science in order to better appreciate his works. But some things, such as the nature of God Himself, or the nature of our relationship with God, cannot be determined by shooting X-rays (or tachyon particles) at something. We can only begin to know these things because God chooses to inform (reveal) them to us, at his convenience. His method of doing this is described in detail in the bible, and the Traditions of the Church.

 

[ribozyme]

God intended us to figure out the universe using reason, logic, science in order to better appreciate his works. But some things, such as the nature of God Himself, or the nature of our relationship with God, cannot be determined by shooting X-rays (or tachyon particles) at something. We can only begin to know these things because God chooses to inform (reveal) them to us, at his convenience. His method of doing this is described in detail in the bible, and the Traditions of the Church.

Really, what passages?

 

[ricmat]

Really, what passages?

The Bible, in general, is a history of salvation. The books of the bible are like a library, and include history, myth, wisdom (like proverbs), poetry, songs, and so forth.

It is not a science book.

In total, the bible is a way for people to understand some things about God, what his relationship is with us, how God wants it to be and how we should act, how we want it to be and how we actually act. Plus God’s plan for fixing things.

So the answer to your question is basically “All of them.”

It takes work. There are no short answers.

 

[Mirdath]

First item: Thank you for making my point.

So why wouldn’t you just accept the fact that the SUV is there. And that it has “properties”. And that it just exists, with no design or designer, and no purpose. You accept these things for the universe which is much more complex. But you know that the SUV is designed, and the universe is not?

Because I can point to an automobile factory in Detroit and say ‘hey, this looks like it came from there!’. I can even go inside and watch them making others that look a lot like it, assuming security doesn’t kick me out. I can have no such experience with the putative design and manufacture of the universe; the universe and the Suburban are qualitatively different, and the analogy doesn’t hold.

In terms of pride. The pride I’m talking about is Pride - saying that you don’t need God, you don’t want God, God is irrelevant. The first of the cardinal sins and the pathway to the deepest level of hell (well, at least according to Dante).

Where did I say I don’t need or want God? I just think it’s unlikely one exists and that I cannot truly know one way or the other. Should a benevolent (or at least neutral-towards-us) deity become perfectly evident to me, I will have no qualms about getting on my knees whatsoever.

oh and by the way, Pride didn’t even have a specific circle. The ninth and deepest circle is for traitors Inferno covered the deadlies, not the cardinals.

Second item: My appreciation of the universe is primarily based on my scientific understanding of it. I am willing to accept the beauty and glory of the universe as having been created, by God, because that’s were the evidence leads.

What evidence? There is no tangible proof that God created the universe, only arguments based on incomplete assumptions. It may be emotionally satisfying (and for those for whom it is, I’m glad ) but it does not stand up to anything other than faith.

God intended us to figure out the universe using reason, logic, science in order to better appreciate his works. But some things, such as the nature of God Himself, or the nature of our relationship with God, cannot be determined by shooting X-rays (or tachyon particles) at something. We can only begin to know these things because God chooses to inform (reveal) them to us, at his convenience. His method of doing this is described in detail in the bible, and the Traditions of the Church.

Both of which were written, rewritten, translated, and edited by humans – who cannot be proven to have received divine revelation anyway. For a non-theist, this is not anything resembling an authoritative source. Even for someone who just isn’t Christian, it isn’t nearly authoritative.

 

[ricmat]

Mirdath,

If God were to give you absolute, overwhelming, incontrovertable, unarguable proof of his existence, you would lose your free will. The evidence would overwhelm you, and you would have no choice but to believe, and to obey.

God chooses not to do that because our call is to love God. And love must be chosen, it cannot be forced.

But if you want proof, then ask God for it. Really.

 

[Oneiron]

Mirdath,

If God were to give you absolute, overwhelming, incontrovertable, unarguable proof of his existence, you would lose your free will. The evidence would overwhelm you, and you would have no choice but to believe, and to obey.

God chooses not to do that because our call is to love God. And love must be chosen, it cannot be forced.

But if you want proof, then ask God for it. Really.

So where was god when i grew up firmly believing in him and I only saw my dad two months out of the year and my mom 2 days out of the week? Where was god when i had to raise myself at 10 years old with no clue about anything? Where was god when my dad lost the use of most of his arm for over a year. Where was god when called out begging for everything to be all right and nothing was? I asked god for proof he existed, for something to go right. I prayed as hard as I could. No matter how hard I prayed and how hard I tried nothign started going right until I stopped praying and started believing no one would help.
What divine plan, what merciful and loving god would abandon a 10 year old who believes and loves god with all his heart? And my life wasn’t bad in comparison to many of my friends’ lives.

If god would offer proof of his existence to those who earnestly ask, he’d have a lot more followers.

 

[Kevin42]

So where was god when i grew up firmly believing in him and I only saw my dad two months out of the year and my mom 2 days out of the week? Where was god when i had to raise myself at 10 years old with no clue about anything? Where was god when my dad lost the use of most of his arm for over a year. Where was god when called out begging for everything to be all right and nothing was? I asked god for proof he existed, for something to go right. I prayed as hard as I could. No matter how hard I prayed and how hard I tried nothign started going right until I stopped praying and started believing no one would help.
What divine plan, what merciful and loving god would abandon a 10 year old who believes and loves god with all his heart? And my life wasn’t bad in comparison to many of my friends’ lives.

If god would offer proof of his existence to those who earnestly ask, he’d have a lot more followers.

God didn’t abandon you. You abandoned Him. Your posts states such. Where were we when He died on the cross? I don’t think too many of His friends showed up then. We still sin, and in doing so we might as well have been the person nailing Him to the cross. I am not saying that your life hasn’t been horrible beyond my comprehension, nor am I trying to make it appear less than it is. Your suffering was great, but His was greater. God never abandoned you, you have abandoned Him though. None of it has to be permanent though. You’re in my prayers. Peace be with you.

 

[Mirdath]

Mirdath,

If God were to give you absolute, overwhelming, incontrovertable, unarguable proof of his existence, you would lose your free will. The evidence would overwhelm you, and you would have no choice but to believe, and to obey.

No, I’d be free to go to hell if I chose. God, in Catholic teaching, graced all humanity with free will so they could choose to love him. Even in the bible when he speaks directly with humans, they have free will. Moses disobeyed him by striking the rock at Horeb, remember?

But if you want proof, then ask God for it. Really.

I’ve yet to get a call back.

 

[Oneiron]

I’ve yet to get a call back.

I do so believe that was my point, not a call for pity and prayers. (Thankee though ) I just presented proof I never got a call back.

 

[cheddarsox]

God didn’t abandon you. You abandoned Him. Your posts states such. Where were we when He died on the cross? I don’t think too many of His friends showed up then. We still sin, and in doing so we might as well have been the person nailing Him to the cross. I am not saying that your life hasn’t been horrible beyond my comprehension, nor am I trying to make it appear less than it is. Your suffering was great, but His was greater. God never abandoned you, you have abandoned Him though. None of it has to be permanent though. You’re in my prayers. Peace be with you.

I wish there was a crying “smilie” because that’s what this response deserves, that’s what it makes me do.

 

[ricmat]

No, I’d be free to go to hell if I chose. God, in Catholic teaching, graced all humanity with free will so they could choose to love him. Even in the bible when he speaks directly with humans, they have free will. Moses disobeyed him by striking the rock at Horeb, remember?

I’ve yet to get a call back.

The point I’m trying (not very well) to make is that the only evidence you would consider valid is evidence that would overwhelm you. Evidence less than this will be dismissed as coincidence, or random mutations, or properties of matter, etc. There is plenty of evidence there already, and these are your responses.

You seem to have a hardness of heart, and it seems that the only way God could get you to believe in him is to force you to do it. By taking away your free will.

As you correctly point out, God won’t do that. Because as I said, love must be chosen and it cannot be forced. Could God force you to love him - of course. But God has chosen not to.

As far as a “call back.” You need to be listening, with an open mind. And for any prayers, God’s answers can be yes, no, not yet, and yes but I’m answering your prayer in a different way than you expected.

 

[ricmat]

So where was god when i grew up firmly believing in him and I only saw my dad two months out of the year and my mom 2 days out of the week? Where was god when i had to raise myself at 10 years old with no clue about anything? Where was god when my dad lost the use of most of his arm for over a year. Where was god when called out begging for everything to be all right and nothing was? I asked god for proof he existed, for something to go right. I prayed as hard as I could. No matter how hard I prayed and how hard I tried nothign started going right until I stopped praying and started believing no one would help.
What divine plan, what merciful and loving god would abandon a 10 year old who believes and loves god with all his heart? And my life wasn’t bad in comparison to many of my friends’ lives.

If god would offer proof of his existence to those who earnestly ask, he’d have a lot more followers.

Perhaps God was talking to your mother and father, and THEY weren’t listening. Just a possibility.

Because we all have free will, we can all do evil. And there are victims of that evil.

I consider myself a religious novice, but when I look around, something really strikes me. From a religious perspective, some people (like me) lead a fairly dull life…with ups and downs, but mostly minor ups and minor downs.

The people I know who soar the highest are actually those who have been the furthest down. Somehow when they find God they REALLY find God, in a deeper and more personal sense than most do.

Perhaps God is preparing you to soar very high.

 

[Mirdath]

The point I’m trying (not very well) to make is that the only evidence you would consider valid is evidence that would overwhelm you. Evidence less than this will be dismissed as coincidence, or random mutations, or properties of matter, etc. There is plenty of evidence there already, and these are your responses.

You seem to have a hardness of heart, and it seems that the only way God could get you to believe in him is to force you to do it. By taking away your free will.

Not necessarily. Incontrovertible does not have to be overwhelming. I’ve made mistakes before, and when I’ve been faced with the complete knowledge of my error it has not taken away my free will.

The main problem with expecting that proof here is that God (the Christian idea at least) does not choose to work that way. God does not prove himself; he would rather see people take his existence on faith, without proof of any kind. So if I am ever faced with proof of divinity, it will not be the Christian concept of God that is proven.

A secondary issue is that the ‘minor proofs’ of God’s existence is that if he did exist and designed the universe, such things are merely natural properties. For example, God would have designed organisms to gradually mutate and evolve; but all we can truly see is a perfectly natural process. We cannot look beyond the natural with human eyes; to do so requires faith.

As far as a “call back.” You need to be listening, with an open mind. And for any prayers, God’s answers can be yes, no, not yet, and yes but I’m answering your prayer in a different way than you expected.

I remain open-minded (and waiting); I simply don’t think it’s very likely, and I believe that trying to irrefutably prove God’s existence is an inherently impossible task.

 

[ricmat]

God does not prove himself; he would rather see people take his existence on faith, without proof of any kind. So if I am ever faced with proof of divinity, it will not be the Christian concept of God that is proven.

Quite the contrary, many have found the Christian God with less than “perfect” proof. Yes, some faith is involved. You are correct that an absolute proof of God is probably impossible.

So, I guess the answer is to pray for faith. If there is no God, then nothing will change. On the other hand, if there is a God, his response might be to give you enough faith which combined with your knowledge of creation pulls you over the edge - in a good way

You have nothing to lose by praying for faith, and keeping an open mind.

 

[Mirdath]

So, I guess the answer is to pray for faith. If there is no God, then nothing will change. On the other hand, if there is a God, his response might be to give you enough faith which combined with your knowledge of creation pulls you over the edge - in a good way

The obvious response is ‘pray to whom?’

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

So where was god when i grew up firmly believing in him and I only saw my dad two months out of the year and my mom 2 days out of the week? Where was god when i had to raise myself at 10 years old with no clue about anything? Where was god when my dad lost the use of most of his arm for over a year. Where was god when called out begging for everything to be all right and nothing was? I asked god for proof he existed, for something to go right. I prayed as hard as I could. No matter how hard I prayed and how hard I tried nothign started going right until I stopped praying and started believing no one would help.
What divine plan, what merciful and loving god would abandon a 10 year old who believes and loves god with all his heart? And my life wasn’t bad in comparison to many of my friends’ lives.

If god would offer proof of his existence to those who earnestly ask, he’d have a lot more followers.

You wanted both material comfort and the awareness of God’s existence at the same time. It may be that this was an inherently impossible request, and the reason your prayers were not answered.

If God offered health and wealth to all who say a few rosaries, Christianity would swiftly degenerate into a cargo cult. On the other hand, if prayers were never answered, then they would be futile.

A lot of atheists have absent or weak fathers. That doesn’t tell us much about the actual truth or falsehood of the belief, but it does tell us to distrust human conclusions. I am sorry that your childhood was not a happy one. However it is over now, and now we’ve got to live in the present. As the Jews say, the immature man sees smoke rising from his street and says “please God let that not be my house”. The mature man prays “please God give me the strength to deal with this situation”.

 

[estesbob]

If god would offer proof of his existence to those who earnestly ask, he’d have a lot more followers.

Psalm 95:

He holds in his hands the depths of the earth

http://www.cave-pictures.com/P3170031.JPG

The Highest Mountains as well

http://www.rockymtnimagelandscaping.com/lake_moraine.jpg

He made the seas , they belong to him

Galileo - NASA Science

Jupiter Orbiter

solarsystem.nasa.gov

The dry lands too, they were fromed by his hands

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/Images/China_dust.TMO2006097.jpg