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JP2Admirer

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What say the Muslims on this board about the bombings?

Christ said a tree is known by its fruit.

Whose intepretation of Islam is correct, the al Qaeda terrorists? Or those who are peaceful Muslims? How do you know?

Muslims are claiming responsibility for the attacks.
 
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JP2Admirer:
What say the Muslims on this board about the bombings?

Christ said a tree is known by its fruit.

Whose intepretation of Islam is correct, the al Qaeda terrorists? Or those who are peaceful Muslims? How do you know?

Muslims are claiming responsibility for the attacks.
Click to expand...
I know our peaceful Muslim friends will condemn these attacks.

The problem is that the Muslim’s who attend prayer’s in Mosques where these radicals pray need to do something.

When the KKK tried to hijack Christianity as a reason to kill non-whites, Christianity put a stop to it.

Until Islam does the same the world will continue to blame Islam. I know I will.

I have been on too many message boards where veiled approval has been given by Muslims for both terrorist attacks as well as attacks on Coalition forces fighting terrorism.

My prayers for those killed and injured in London.

When will this end?
 
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JP2Admirer:
What say the Muslims on this board about the bombings?

Christ said a tree is known by its fruit.

Whose intepretation of Islam is correct, the al Qaeda terrorists? Or those who are peaceful Muslims? How do you know?

Muslims are claiming responsibility for the attacks.
Click to expand...
why do i get the feeling that regardless of what my fellow muslims on this board and i say, it won’t be taken at face value? what use is it when we continually tell you that these things have no place in islam, that islam forbids such chaos and wanton destruction, that islam forbids the killing of innocents and non-combatants, and you continually reject it saying that islam is a religion of violence and hate???

the adage “a tree is known by its fruits” is not an absolute truth. proof of this is the case of the hypocrites mentioned in the Quran, those who outwardly profess islam, adhering its laws and rulings while disbelieving and rejecting islam in their hearts. outwardly, their “fruits” indicate a good and sound “core”… however, the reality is that his “core” is corrupt and evil. and there are many, many other proofs to show that this adage you people keep quoting is not an absolute truth.

here are various religious rulings regarding islam’s view on terrorism and these sorts of attacks:
fatwa-online.com/worship/jihaad/jih004/index.htm

it’s up to you whether you click the links and read what’s found there or not.
 
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r.gonzales:
why do i get the feeling that regardless of what my fellow muslims on this board and i say, it won’t be taken at face value? what use is it when we continually tell you that these things have no place in islam, that islam forbids such chaos and wanton destruction, that islam forbids the killing of innocents and non-combatants, and you continually reject it saying that islam is a religion of violence and hate???

the adage “a tree is known by its fruits” is not an absolute truth. proof of this is the case of the hypocrites mentioned in the Quran, those who outwardly profess islam, adhering its laws and rulings while disbelieving and rejecting islam in their hearts. outwardly, their “fruits” indicate a good and sound “core”… however, the reality is that his “core” is corrupt and evil. and there are many, many other proofs to show that this adage you people keep quoting is not an absolute truth.

here are various religious rulings regarding islam’s view on terrorism and these sorts of attacks:
fatwa-online.com/worship/jihaad/jih004/index.htm

it’s up to you whether you click the links and read what’s found there or not.
Click to expand...
Can you tell us where these terrorists get their inspiration, if it’s not from the teachings of Islam??😦
 
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r.gonzales:
why do i get the feeling that regardless of what my fellow muslims on this board and i say, it won’t be taken at face value? what use is it when we continually tell you that these things have no place in islam, that islam forbids such chaos and wanton destruction, that islam forbids the killing of innocents and non-combatants, and you continually reject it saying that islam is a religion of violence and hate???

the adage “a tree is known by its fruits” is not an absolute truth. proof of this is the case of the hypocrites mentioned in the Quran, those who outwardly profess islam, adhering its laws and rulings while disbelieving and rejecting islam in their hearts. outwardly, their “fruits” indicate a good and sound “core”… however, the reality is that his “core” is corrupt and evil. and there are many, many other proofs to show that this adage you people keep quoting is not an absolute truth.

here are various religious rulings regarding islam’s view on terrorism and these sorts of attacks:
fatwa-online.com/worship/jihaad/jih004/index.htm

it’s up to you whether you click the links and read what’s found there or not.
Click to expand...
Okay, so you are saying that violence has no place in Islam. That’s your interpretation. The guys who attacked London say that violence against the infidel is justified. That’s their interpretation.

Whose is correct? If you say yours, you have to prove it. Those who give evidence to the contrary (as the terrorists surely would), would offer counter proofs to your position. So whose right?

You see, Islam falls into the same trap as Protestantism in that there is no objective authority of matters of faith. Only subjective interpretation.

How do you know your interpretation of Islam is correct and the terrorists isn’t?
 
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JP2Admirer:
What say the Muslims on this board about the bombings?

Christ said a tree is known by its fruit.

Whose intepretation of Islam is correct, the al Qaeda terrorists? Or those who are peaceful Muslims? How do you know?

Muslims are claiming responsibility for the attacks.
Click to expand...
If these people had a full understanding of Islam then they could be called followers of it, and if they were followers of Islam then you could use the above stated, about the tree.

However you can rest assured that they are not good muslims if you simply view one of the videos.
 
I know terrorists are a minority in Islam, although governments like the Taliban are extremely frightening to much of the rest of the world.
I would just like to be comfortable by seeing the peaceful Muslim majority to stand up to these murders.
why do i get the feeling that regardless of what my fellow muslims on this board and i say, it won’t be taken at face value?
Because we need to see something other than lip service. We love you, but we need a little help here. Some of us are marching in the streets against war. When we ask you to act against the violent (alleged) Muslims, it seems as though you claim, “We can’t go against them; they are our Muslim brothers and sisters.” Yet at the same time it is claimed that the perpetrators “aren’t real Muslims.”
Which is it?

Jim
 
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Eetaq:
If these people had a full understanding of Islam then they could be called followers of it, and if they were followers of Islam then you could use the above stated, about the tree.

However you can rest assured that they are not good muslims if you simply view one of the videos.
Click to expand...
Again, I sincerely believe you in that you say Islam is of peace, and that that is what you believe.

However, how do you know you are right about your interpretation and the terrorists are not? You don’t, except for in your mind Islam is of peace. In the terrorists mind, Islam says kill the infidel.

Are you right or are they? How do you know? Because you say so?
 
Again, I sincerely believe you in that you say Islam is of peace, and that that is what you believe.

However, how do you know you are right about your interpretation and the terrorists are not? You don’t, except for in your mind Islam is of peace. In the terrorists mind, Islam says kill the infidel.

Are you right or are they? How do you know? Because you say so?
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This is the problem of the people of the Book of Islam–personal interpretations. Everyone is his own authority to interpret it correctly.

Pio
 
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JP2Admirer:
Okay, so you are saying that violence has no place in Islam. That’s your interpretation. The guys who attacked London say that violence against the infidel is justified. That’s their interpretation.

Whose is correct? If you say yours, you have to prove it. Those who give evidence to the contrary (as the terrorists surely would), would offer counter proofs to your position. So whose right?

You see, Islam falls into the same trap as Protestantism in that there is no objective authority of matters of faith. Only subjective interpretation.

How do you know your interpretation of Islam is correct and the terrorists isn’t?
Click to expand...
al-imam maalik bin anas, one of the early scholars of islam once said, “the last of this [muslim] nation will not be rectified except by that which rectified its beginning.”

islam’s texts have been preserved, the Quran and the sunnah. both have their explanations and interpretations that have been explained by the scholars of islam who were upon the correct understanding. these explanations are still available for people to refer to if they wish.

if you want to know which interpretation is correct, you go back to the time when the people who were upon the correct understanding were many, and the people of deviation were few - that means you have to go back to the beginning. you look to the statements of prophet muhammad’s companions and their students, and the students of their students. the first three generations of islam were the purest in terms of correct understanding. they have left nothing for the generations to follow in terms of understanding the texts according to the way they were intended to be understood.

anyone who comes with a statement, an interpretation or an understanding, for which he has no precedent, then that in and of itself is a clear indication that what he brings is wrong.

so that is your litmus test. that is the way you can tell who’s right and who’s wrong.
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hlgomez:
This is the problem of the people of the Book of Islam–personal interpretations. Everyone is his own authority to interpret it correctly.
Click to expand...
this is not true at all. the authority on how to interpret the Quran are prophet muhammad and his companions. and their statements are recorded, along with the statements of their students. they’re found in the books of classical tafseer, like tafseer at-tabaree, tafseer ibn katheer and others.
 
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r.gonzales:
al-imam maalik bin anas, one of the early scholars of islam once said, “the last of this [muslim] nation will not be rectified except by that which rectified its beginning.”

islam’s texts have been preserved, the Quran and the sunnah. both have their explanations and interpretations that have been explained by the scholars of islam who were upon the correct understanding. these explanations are still available for people to refer to if they wish.

if you want to know which interpretation is correct, you go back to the time when the people who were upon the correct understanding were many, and the people of deviation were few - that means you have to go back to the beginning. you look to the statements of prophet muhammad’s companions and their students, and the students of their students. the first three generations of islam were the purest in terms of correct understanding. they have left nothing for the generations to follow in terms of understanding the texts according to the way they were intended to be understood.

anyone who comes with a statement, an interpretation or an understanding, for which he has no precedent, then that in and of itself is a clear indication that what he brings is wrong.

so that is your litmus test. that is the way you can tell who’s right and who’s wrong.

this is not true at all. the authority on how to interpret the Quran are prophet muhammad and his companions. and their statements are recorded, along with the statements of their students. they’re found in the books of classical tafseer, like tafseer at-tabaree, tafseer ibn katheer and others.
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I understand to get closer to the sources in order to find a true interpretation. However, I still don’t see how one can trust that their interpretation is right, especially when the Hadiths are more or less legend, as they are not truly historical in describing the character of the prophet (what I mean is they more or less developed as legends develop.)

But how can you say that your interpretation is correct in light of the fact that Muhammad approved of assassination, and in some instances, did so himself? If it is right for your prophet to kill to further his cause, why is it wrong for his followers to kill to further his cause? Judging by the actions of the prophet, it would seem the terrorists are right in their interpretation. What say you?

Also, why is it that in predominantly Muslim countries, other religions are persecuted? Where are the true Muslims, if your interpretation is correct? Judging by the world stage, your interpretation is miniority and is incorrect. I understand that you truly love your religion, but don’t blind yourself to the Truth because of that love. True love is concerned with the Truth.

Maybe even ask yourself, “why do these Muslims behave the way they do?” Why do they do it in the name of Islam? If it’s not Islam, why do they claim it is? What about your religion would make them think they were doing God’s will by blowing themselves up and killing others in the process?

They get the premise for their actions from Islam. Deny it all you want, but it comes from interpreting the Koran. Why do they behave this way?

Why do people dance in the streets and sing praise to Allah when 3,000 innocent people are murdered? If its not Islam, then why praise Allah for mass murder? You can keep ignoring the source, but the Truth will set you free.
 
And once more for good measure:

Next we’ll hear that the people who did this aren’t really Muslims, or they do not represent true Islam. Well guess what? I’m tired of that old line. If it’s true, then you REAL Muslims need to get off your butts and do something about it! Do something about the hatred taught in the Madrasas. Do something about the children brought up to believe that blowing yourself up and killing as many civilians as possible is an honorable thing to do. I don’t care what you do, but DO SOMETHING, because if you don’t, a reckoning will come and you will have no one to blame but yourselves! Simple statements aren’t helping nor are they even believed anymore, you need TO ACT! Quit playing the victim card and get out there and make a difference! Challenge the hate mongers if they are perverting your religion from the Mosques and Islamic schools. DO SOMETHING or no one will believe it when you say you are a peaceful religion which abhors these kinds of actions. Words won’t cut it anymore.

I won’t lie to you, your silence, or the feeble condemnations you and your Islamic organizations make are pathetic. I do not believe you. Most of the time, you are silent. That silence speaks volumes.
 
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Eetaq:
If these people had a full understanding of Islam then they could be called followers of it, and if they were followers of Islam then you could use the above stated, about the tree.

However you can rest assured that they are not good muslims if you simply view one of the videos.
Click to expand...
I think the people in London would be less than enthused by your statement of “rest assured”. I no longer “rest assured” after 9-11.

Good Muslim or bad Muslim, when the Muslim kills you it doesn’t matter.
 
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iamrefreshed:
I think the people in London would be less than enthused by your statement of “rest assured”. I no longer “rest assured” after 9-11.

Good Muslim or bad Muslim, when the Muslim kills you it doesn’t matter.
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When the christian kills my brothers in afghanistan and Iraq it…wait…I can tell the difference between two things.

In the case of the blatant wars that have killed thousands I can see it is the act of a government.

In the case of random attacks that kill hundreds I can see that it is the act of a political organization with a political goal.
 
The Muslim Council of Britain,to their credit,have condemned the
bombings in London.However,there is a law in Britain which Muslims have access to when they are being persecuted by the likes of the BNP thugs(Britain’s KKK).Christians being persecuted in Pakistan don’t appear to have the same privilege.We have some Pakistani Christians hoping to be allowed to stay in Scotland because of the miserable time they have been getting in their home country.I haven’t noticed many Scottish Muslims coming out in their support.If i can be gaoled in Britain for abusing a Muslim,i am entitled to expect a Muslim in Pakistan to land in prison for abusing a Christian.
When a book or film/stage performance comes out portraying
Muslims or Hindus in a bad light,they respond with violence in Britain.In India or Pakistan,Christians would not get to demonstrate against anything which put Christianity in a poor light.The aforementioned Muslims and Hindus cannot even get on with each other in their own part of the world.“What has loving your neighbour got to do with religion?” :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
The atheists use this kind of stuff to denounce all religion,
conveniently ignoring what went on in Stalinist Russia or in
modern-day atheistic China right now.
 
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Eetaq:
When the christian kills my brothers in afghanistan and Iraq it…wait…I can tell the difference between two things.

In the case of the blatant wars that have killed thousands I can see it is the act of a government.

In the case of random attacks that kill hundreds I can see that it is the act of a political organization with a political goal.
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Excuse me eetaq, can you please point me out to the statement from the Christian organization that accepted responsibility for killing your “brothers”.?

Are you from Afghanistan or Iraq? What do you mean by “your brother”? Am I not your brother?
 
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JP2Admirer:
I understand to get closer to the sources in order to find a true interpretation. However, I still don’t see how one can trust that their interpretation is right, especially when the Hadiths are more or less legend, as they are not truly historical in describing the character of the prophet (what I mean is they more or less developed as legends develop.)
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how much study have you put into the topic of hadeeth and their preservation? fyi, much of early islamic history is from reports such as hadeeths and the likes. where do you think all these people got information on prophet muhammad’s life - whether muslim or non-muslim biographers?

as for trusting that their interpretation is correct, who do you think the revelation was revealed to? and who do you think was around at the time of its revelation. Allah says in the Quran, “surely, Allah had blessed the believers when He sent amongst them a messenger (muhammad)from themselves, reciting to them His verses, purifying them (i.e., the believers) and teaching them the Book (i.e, the Quran) and the Wisdom (i.e., the Sunnah) and indeed, before they were certainly in manifest misguidance.” (3:264) this verse makes it clear that there is more than just the Quran that was revealed, the wisdom behind its verses was also revealed to prophet muhammad and he taught it to his companions. Allah also says, “and whoever opposes the messenger after the what has been clarified to him of the guidance and follows other than the believers’ way, We will turn him to what he turned to and cast him in hell - and what an evil fate!” (4:115) the believers mentioned in this verse refers to those who accompanied prophet muhammad and it is evidence for the obligation of taking their understanding of the religion.
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JP2Admirer:
But how can you say that your interpretation is correct in light of the fact that Muhammad approved of assassination, and in some instances, did so himself? If it is right for your prophet to kill to further his cause, why is it wrong for his followers to kill to further his cause? Judging by the actions of the prophet, it would seem the terrorists are right in their interpretation. What say you?
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since all these things attributed to prophet muhammad come from some outsider’s interpretation of some of the biographies that have been written about muhammad, perhaps you should try to verify if these claims are authentically reported to have occurred the way they are portrayed.

as for the misinterpretation of these extremists, part of it can be attributed to the writings of one of the late contemporary muslim writers, sayyid qutb. many of the muslim extremists of todays take their ideologies from his, which are inline with the ideologies and the beliefs of the early muslim sect, the khawaarij (kharajites).
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JP2Admirer:
Also, why is it that in predominantly Muslim countries, other religions are persecuted? Where are the true Muslims, if your interpretation is correct? Judging by the world stage, your interpretation is miniority and is incorrect.
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firstly, i don’t think you know enough about my “interpretation” of islam to be able to judge anything.

secondly, judging by world stage, even the interpretations of these extremists is minority and incorrect.

thirdly, regarding the predominantly muslim countries, name one with a proper islamic government in place that rules according to the full sharee’ah. i guarantee you, you won’t find one that does. you’ll find some that are close, or some that are better than others, but finding a muslim country around today that rules completely by the sharee’ah is pretty much like finding the unicorn - not going to happen.
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JP2Admirer:
I understand that you truly love your religion, but don’t blind yourself to the Truth because of that love. True love is concerned with the Truth.
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let’s get something straight here. i didn’t embrace islam because i found it to be overly attractive or something that i thought would be ultra cool if i entered it. i don’t love this religion for any other reason that it is the truth and the religion that God has chosen for mankind. seeking for the truth and longing to be upon it is something that i continually strive for all the time - and it is the reason why i pray to God that He keeps the love of beneficial knowledge embedded in my heart until the day i die.

con’t…
 
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