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Debora123
Guest
Wow… I can’t believe how rude people have gotten to the OP. 
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DexUK
Guest
I do hope you don’t perceive me as being rude. If I am being so then I sincerely apologise, since that is most definitely not my intention. I am however somewhat frustrated with the OP who seems, to me at least, to be attempting to wriggle out of his responsibility on the flimsiest of technicalities, when in fact there aren’t any.
I am a gentleman. I take care in my behaviour towards all people male and female, and I object when I see others being less than honourable - or indeed if I myself slip up from time to time. The world would be such a better place if people could just be courteous to each other. I guess I’m just very old fashioned, having been born late to parents who were themselves born late to their own parents. (By rights I should be about 40 years older than I am!)
I am a gentleman. I take care in my behaviour towards all people male and female, and I object when I see others being less than honourable - or indeed if I myself slip up from time to time. The world would be such a better place if people could just be courteous to each other. I guess I’m just very old fashioned, having been born late to parents who were themselves born late to their own parents. (By rights I should be about 40 years older than I am!)
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Dragonslayer
Guest
It seems the OP is struggling with the sins of impurity.
Yes, us males love the female form and with the skimpy clothing worn in this day and age by many females their form is on display more than ever before. And yes Robert Sock, it is very difficult not to look, especially when it seems you have spent a lifetime looking.
And, as others have posted it is not a sin to glance, admire and appreciate the beauty of one of God’s creations. BUT, you are consciously and deliberately staring at women, especially women who are skimpily dressed. This is a sin. The sin of impurity. You can argue you do not have any lustful thoughts when you do this but you then must ask yourself why exactly are you deliberately and consciously looking at the breasts of young women.
It is a sin. If you don’t believe me or the many other posters, ask your Priest. And, follow his direction.
Every day, you must ask God for the grace to overcome this occasion of sin. I do something similar and believe me, God will help you.
Yes, us males love the female form and with the skimpy clothing worn in this day and age by many females their form is on display more than ever before. And yes Robert Sock, it is very difficult not to look, especially when it seems you have spent a lifetime looking.
And, as others have posted it is not a sin to glance, admire and appreciate the beauty of one of God’s creations. BUT, you are consciously and deliberately staring at women, especially women who are skimpily dressed. This is a sin. The sin of impurity. You can argue you do not have any lustful thoughts when you do this but you then must ask yourself why exactly are you deliberately and consciously looking at the breasts of young women.
It is a sin. If you don’t believe me or the many other posters, ask your Priest. And, follow his direction.
Every day, you must ask God for the grace to overcome this occasion of sin. I do something similar and believe me, God will help you.
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Debora123
Guest
No, I was not referring to you. I was referring to a few very specific people who shall remain nameless.
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lizaanne
Guest
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centurionguard
Guest
This is a crazy thread. Maybe I was born different in my upbringing as now being a man in his mid-fifties. A Woman’s breasts never did anything for me accept to notice they were a God-given sign and expression of femininity in woman. Hardly sexual objects any more than breasts of mammals.
I’m mean really what’s so sexual about an infant suckling at its mothers breasts.
Childish men amuse themselves with childish things.
I think JESUS knew what was in the weakness of man’s heart more than anybody when He said; if any man looks at a woman with lusts in his heart, he has already committed Adultery with her in his heart.
To me this speaks volumes when concerning the many weaknesses of the flesh.
Its a big primitive weakness for many men to overcome. All the pleasure and lusts of the flesh wrapped up in five primitive human senses which have Nothing to do with growing Spiritually.
I’m mean really what’s so sexual about an infant suckling at its mothers breasts.
Childish men amuse themselves with childish things.
I think JESUS knew what was in the weakness of man’s heart more than anybody when He said; if any man looks at a woman with lusts in his heart, he has already committed Adultery with her in his heart.
To me this speaks volumes when concerning the many weaknesses of the flesh.
Its a big primitive weakness for many men to overcome. All the pleasure and lusts of the flesh wrapped up in five primitive human senses which have Nothing to do with growing Spiritually.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
What are you directing your post? Certainly, not the OP.
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centurionguard
Guest
I was directing my post at no one specifically.
Merely making a comment in relation to some of the statements made in this thread in reference to those who have an unnatural preoccupation with woman’s breasts.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
A young woman age 21 is not a girl, and from there on up, your labeling a woman of 45 a “girl” tells me quite a bit.
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centurionguard
Guest
And in that variable time span what entrancing thoughts have you entertained in your mind?
Just asking.
No part of a woman’s physical appearance is supposed to be seen as a sexual object. Beyond a woman’s physical appearance there’s a real human heart and soul just as there is beyond the physical appearance of men. That’s were the realness and beauty of a human being comes from regardless of gender.
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Monica4316
Guest
this… also, it might be putting yourself into an occasion of sin.
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Bookcat
Guest
Can it be sinful? Yes (disordered in various ways depending on various factors. Can be contrary to modesty, or even chastity, dignity of the person etc (note I have not read all the posts here…I am referring in a general way to the q in the title)
2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.
2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.
2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.
As to looking at paintings …well one must know oneself and make a judgment (for some it can be problematic others not…again it also depends on the painting).
And there is a difference between looking a live person and a painting.
What is needed?
Prudence, modesty, temperance in general, of course chastity…
and a reasonable:
*Custodia Occulorum *(custody of the eyes)
(note too one must distinguish as to what is being done…there is a difference certainly between looking lustfully…and happening to notice an attractive person in a modest and chaste etc way etc…and of course there can be a sort of “automatic” draw at times of the eyes of men that happens…but we need to practice too a custody of the eyes)
Catechism:2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.
2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.
2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.
As to looking at paintings …well one must know oneself and make a judgment (for some it can be problematic others not…again it also depends on the painting).
And there is a difference between looking a live person and a painting.
What is needed?
Prudence, modesty, temperance in general, of course chastity…
and a reasonable:
*Custodia Occulorum *(custody of the eyes)
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Strategery
Guest
Pretty interesting thread. Lot’s of derailment, misunderstandings, judgements, judgements on judgements, the whole deal. Kind of like life in general.
I think in the OP, though, we have a man who asked an honest question and is hoping for an honest answer. I’ll take my crack.
Any man who is trying to truly walk with the Lord has to face up to this question, particularly in this day and age where attire is increasingly immodest. I find that for me personally, the line between “noticing” and “lingering” comes awfully quickly. If I’m as honest with myself as I can possibly be, I’d say that in most cases, I shoot right past noticing and go straight to lingering. And on down the path to lustfulness.
I’m not sure where noticing ends and lingering starts, or where lingering ends and lustfulness starts. But I do know it’s awfully easy to shoot straight to lustfulness. Which to me, puts “looking” into the “near occasion of sin” category.
I’m trying pretty hard to tackle this in my life too. Over the last few years I’ve been asking God to show me things that need to change. He’s pointed his light at this for me, in spades. I understand that if I am to truly follow Christ, this element of my behavior needs to go away.
It needs to go away for a lot of reasons. But here are two. First, it’s not respectful. Whether or not the woman wants to be noticed is immaterial, it’s still disrespectful.
Beyond that though, it’s a symptom of a larger spiritual problem. In too many areas of my life, I look for satisfaction in places that in the end will never satisfy me. I’m putting my desire and my attention on things that lead to the deadly sins – lust, gluttony, pride, avarice, greed, etc. They are deadly because they become the end focus for us. We think we find satisfaction there, but the satisfaction is temporary, and they place us on a path that leads away from God.
That’s what disordered desire is. We become focused on the temporal and the material, and we are attached to the comforts, emotions, feelings, and desires that they feed. In the end we crave the created and not the creator. This gives the Enemy a quiver of ammunition against us.
Only God satisfies.
We are fallen. We can not solve this problem on our own. But with God’s grace, all is possible. God can make the transformation for us.
PS - I just realized that I needed to write this down for my own benefit, and for my own spiritual walk. I’ll keep it here just in case it’s useful to someone else.
PPS - On the Song of Songs - first, it’s not an excuse. It’s the story of a bride and bridegroom, not a guy noticing a girl walking by. We’re most familiar with that from a husband and wife perspective. But … it the Song of Songs points to the intimacy of the relationship between us and Christ – the true Bridegroom. If we can have relationships with one another like that, just try and imagine how great the relationship with the Bridegroom can truly be, if we truly desired Him that much!
I think in the OP, though, we have a man who asked an honest question and is hoping for an honest answer. I’ll take my crack.
Any man who is trying to truly walk with the Lord has to face up to this question, particularly in this day and age where attire is increasingly immodest. I find that for me personally, the line between “noticing” and “lingering” comes awfully quickly. If I’m as honest with myself as I can possibly be, I’d say that in most cases, I shoot right past noticing and go straight to lingering. And on down the path to lustfulness.
I’m not sure where noticing ends and lingering starts, or where lingering ends and lustfulness starts. But I do know it’s awfully easy to shoot straight to lustfulness. Which to me, puts “looking” into the “near occasion of sin” category.
I’m trying pretty hard to tackle this in my life too. Over the last few years I’ve been asking God to show me things that need to change. He’s pointed his light at this for me, in spades. I understand that if I am to truly follow Christ, this element of my behavior needs to go away.
It needs to go away for a lot of reasons. But here are two. First, it’s not respectful. Whether or not the woman wants to be noticed is immaterial, it’s still disrespectful.
Beyond that though, it’s a symptom of a larger spiritual problem. In too many areas of my life, I look for satisfaction in places that in the end will never satisfy me. I’m putting my desire and my attention on things that lead to the deadly sins – lust, gluttony, pride, avarice, greed, etc. They are deadly because they become the end focus for us. We think we find satisfaction there, but the satisfaction is temporary, and they place us on a path that leads away from God.
That’s what disordered desire is. We become focused on the temporal and the material, and we are attached to the comforts, emotions, feelings, and desires that they feed. In the end we crave the created and not the creator. This gives the Enemy a quiver of ammunition against us.
Only God satisfies.
We are fallen. We can not solve this problem on our own. But with God’s grace, all is possible. God can make the transformation for us.
PS - I just realized that I needed to write this down for my own benefit, and for my own spiritual walk. I’ll keep it here just in case it’s useful to someone else.
PPS - On the Song of Songs - first, it’s not an excuse. It’s the story of a bride and bridegroom, not a guy noticing a girl walking by. We’re most familiar with that from a husband and wife perspective. But … it the Song of Songs points to the intimacy of the relationship between us and Christ – the true Bridegroom. If we can have relationships with one another like that, just try and imagine how great the relationship with the Bridegroom can truly be, if we truly desired Him that much!
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Monica4316
Guest
accidental looking, no… but intentional, yes. It’s also rude, objectifying, and an opportunity for sin.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
So, in and of itself, it’s not sin.
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Monica4316
Guest
these women are someone’s wives, daughters, mothers, sisters… would you feel comfortable if a man at the mall was staring at your daughter’s chest? Jesus said, if someone looks at a woman lustfully, they have already committed idolatry with her in their heart. Even if you don’t feel lust, it’s still an invitation to it and still a temptation. You said that you are looking at these women intentionally, not accidently…
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Monica4316
Guest
I totally agree with that… while I believe that women should dress modestly so as not to tempt anyone, - it’s still the guy’s responsibility to make the right choices. Sin is ALWAYS a choice. A guy might not help noticing a woman’s breasts if she is dressed in a low cut shirt, but then he has a choice: keep looking, or look away. Both men and women should contribute to purity. And if the woman is not dressed modestly, yes she is causing others to be tempted which is a sin, but if they consent to that temptation, that is their sin too.
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Monica4316
Guest
Robert, I suggest thinking about the quote above from the Catechism… even if there are no lustful thoughts, it’s still against the dignity of the person and modesty; that is: hiding what should be hidden.
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Monica4316
Guest
they are not real people… real people who were made by God, have a dignity that was given to them by Him. Even if a woman is not dressed modestly and is not protecting her dignity and is not striving for purity - this does not mean that it’s okay to choose to stare at her body.
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Monica4316
Guest
actually putting ourselves in occasions of sin is a sin…
you are asking if it’s a sin or not, in several posts… people have replied that they believe it to be wrong. If it’s wrong, then it can’t be good or right… so probably yes it’s a sin. I’d say so, though I don’t have any authority to judge that for sure. I recommend talking to your priest about this in Confession.
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