Looking for an Orthodox Catholic magazine that does NOT support illegal immigration in the U.S.

[Nec5]

Blather? Really? The Bible teaches charity.
(How’s that for keeping it simple?)

It also teaches truth no matter who cries or has their feelings hurt. Truth is the ultimate charity. Sugar coating is not charity. It allows the deceived person to retain their illusions. That’s not compassionate.

 

[Tietjen]

It also teaches truth no matter who cries or has their feelings hurt. Truth is the ultimate charity. Sugar coating is not charity. It allows the deceived person to retain their illusions. That’s not compassionate.

No, of course not. You would have people starve to death and simply forget about it or pretend that it is not happening. I understand. Abracadabra… poof… there are no more starving families. Whose seeing illusions now?

 

[EasterJoy]

That is all meaningless blather. Vagueness serves nothing. The Devil is in the details for a reason. Why aren’t we?

And the dismissal of a point of view as simplistic is a typical progressive tactic designed to insult the intellectual abilities of the other side. The Bible is incredibly simple because it is the truth. It’s simplicity is not a weakness. It is man that complicates things to excuse his own actions or inactions.

Meaningless blather. Why thank you. Let me be more simple, and tell you where the Devil fits in with the details:

We are allowed to police our own border, but that doesn’t mean that every way we choose to do it is moral in the eyes of God. Private property rights are legitimate, but God’s command that we love our neighbor as ourselves comes before our property rights, and if we don’t act accordingly, we’re going to be awarded with a chance to enjoy our self-centered selves without the benefit of God’s presence, eternally. The border is very secure, so we will not have the likes of Lazarus streaming across to bother us.

That’s the shortest summary of my blather I could come up with. I hope it was simple enough. I trust you can find the corresponding verses in the Bible, but if not, try the Gospel of Luke.

You say that you know what it means to follow the Gospel and that our bishops don’t. I disagree.

We’re not going to agree. That’s pretty simple.

 

[copeland45]

The bishops have said that the border should be secure and future immigrants should be documented.

For the illegal immigrants already here, the bishops have siad that they should be treated humanely and be given a reasonable path to citizenship for those who wish to work and live here. The bishops never specifically mandated amnesty.

The bishops oppose Arizona’s law. I’m not sure whether I agree with that opposition, but I do agree with the general guidelines and motives of the bishops’ overall response.

I apologize to Tietjen for questioning his motives, as well as to anyone else whom I’ve offended.

 

[Nec5]

No, of course not. You would have people starve to death and simply forget about it or pretend that it is not happening. I understand. Abracadabra… poof… there are no more starving families. Whose seeing illusions now?

I didn’t say that. I said just the opposite. You’re being emotional.

As to EasterJoy, I think the disagreement has a lot to do over political and economic systems (i.e. capitalism) and their ability or inability to address these moral issues. We also probably disagree about cultural cohesion and assimilation.

I will say that immigration is of far smaller concern compared to the societal moral rot that holds sway in the States. What good is it to manage your borders if you are rotten within?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Which group do you believe is the majority? Are there 10 million illegal murdering immigrants invading the US or are the criminals actually an EXTREMELY low percentage? If it’s a disproportionately lower number, in favor of hard-working men and women trying to earn money for their families, then let me ask you if you advocate limiting births in the US. Would you be in favor of artificial birth control as a method to avoid mothers that die during child birth? Sounds silly huh? So, does your reasoning that you would allow millions of families to starve because there may be SOME criminals who slip by the system. Besides, the USCCB is for reforming the immigration laws which includes being more resolute in screening those coming into the United States.

You keep saying you’re done, yet you keep returning to plead the case for illegal aliens?

I support our current laws. I support all true immigrants.

Laws are meant to be obeyed, not subject to the sort of racism-disguised-as-compassion that trumpets, 'There, there, you don’t have to obey any laws or live up to any standards because you’re merely (fill in the blank)."

If a law is good it must apply to everyone.

If other countries have a right to secure their borders so do we.

 

[JAGCath28]

I think many people who support illegal immigration due to our duties as Christians, should listen to Jesse Romero’s CAL broadcast on the Spiritual Implications of Illegal Immigration.

Many of these immigrants who are coming over to support their families in other countries, are falling into sin in our country. They are starting new families, and no longer providing for their first families. These aren’t just a few occurrence here, but happens more often than people realize. Jesse’s talk about how this illegal immigration is affecting the family is something that everyone should think about. It’s only about an hour talk. You should really listen to it.

I just wanted to repeat my post from before because it was quickly overlooked and lost in the posts to follow. I think Jesse Romero makes a very strong case about what illegal implication is doing to families, and how it is tearing the family unit apart. I don’t understand how it is charitable to support people who leave their wife and children alone to go to another country (illegally). Their children grow up with no father. They leave their families without a protector. And in many cases, they fall into serious sin on our side of the border including starting new families. To me, supporting this isn’t charitable at all.

The true way to be charitable in this situation is to help them in their own countries so they can stay with their families. I will agree that the US is considered the most wealthy country, but we have a lot of problems going on right now that will soon drag our economy down to be on the same level (or lower) as everyone else. We have a lot of people who are homeless. We have many who have lost jobs. We have a tremendous amount of young adult crime. There are a lot of things that need to be done here to in order to be charitable and live out our faith. Some people are called to provide charity at home and some are called to provide it abroad. Most parishes have sister parishes in other countries. We should be supporting those missions to the best of our ability, but I don’t think that supporting the breaking of the family with supporting illegal immigration is the right thing to do.

 

[CSUNGerrie]

I came here as an illegal immigrant when I was 4 years old. I feel so incredible hurt to hear some of the people on this forum express their opinions. I keep hearing people essentially say, “well… if I give some of my bread out to another… I wont have much bread to eat myself.”
How can you, in good conscious, say such a thing? Man does not live on bread alone!

One of the things that I love about being Catholic is how the church operates as a paradox. We are conservative on abortion and liberal on immigration. It is things like this that have always helped me to see the beauty and truth of the Catholic church. It’s willingness to defend families, and those without a voice! But some of you sound like a bunch of southern conservative protestants.

Many of the arguments some people here have used against illegal immigration can be applied for a pro abortion position or anti poor. “Well, if we allow this criminal to have his/her baby, then she/he will use up all our countries resources and there wont be enough bread for me.”

Seek spiritual bread instead.

 

[Tietjen]

You keep saying you’re done, yet you keep returning to plead the case for illegal aliens?

Yes, and you continue to deny charity to others and yet label yourself Catholic. Seems we both have some contradictions in our lives.

I support our current laws. I support all true immigrants.

That used to be the same argument used by some Catholics prior to civil rights laws being established to protect minorities. Once upon a time slavery was legal in the US and protected by law. My point being that man’s (and the US government’s) laws are not always in unison with God’s laws. When that situation occurs, you can choose man’s law if you wish, but you will answer for it later.

Laws are meant to be obeyed, not subject to the sort of racism-disguised-as-compassion that trumpets, 'There, there, you don’t have to obey any laws or live up to any standards because you’re merely (fill in the blank)."

LOL - Too funny. The USCCB wants to show compassion toward men and their families and you would have us believe that they are secretly racists. “Good will be called evil and evil will be called good” I suppose.

If a law is good it must apply to everyone.

Agreed.

If other countries have a right to secure their borders so do we.

Agreed. Now stop acting indignant and listen to what the USCCB is actually saying. They are NOT saying that the borders shouldn’t be secured. Boy, some Catholics just love to criticize the Bishops without even knowing what they are saying. :banghead:

 

[Tietjen]

I came here as an illegal immigrant when I was 4 years old. I feel so incredible hurt to hear some of the people on this forum express their opinions. I keep hearing people essentially say, “well… if I give some of my bread out to another… I wont have much bread to eat myself.”
How can you, in good conscious, say such a thing? Man does not live on bread alone!

One of the things that I love about being Catholic is how the church operates as a paradox. We are conservative on abortion and liberal on immigration. It is things like this that have always helped me to see the beauty and truth of the Catholic church. It’s willingness to defend families, and those without a voice! But some of you sound like a bunch of southern conservative protestants.

Many of the arguments some people here have used against illegal immigration can be applied for a pro abortion position or anti poor. “Well, if we allow this criminal to have his/her baby, then she/he will use up all our countries resources and there wont be enough bread for me.”

Seek spiritual bread instead.

The sad fact is that there are those in our parishes that when they leave mass on Sunday morning, do not live as Catholics the rest of the week. It has been that way forever. However, take comfort in the fact that the Church isn’t a democracy and doesn’t vote on Truth, whether as it relates to Sacred Tradition or social justice.

 

[Honus]

The Bishops in this country do more harm than good when they get involved with social issues in this country. The best example is the healthcare scam that was passed recently. Thankfully we are not required to agree with their left leaning political views.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

If you move into a country and break its laws, you are violating your fellow human being. It is that simple!!

And when America invaded Iraq, and a million people became refugees, where do these people go?

 

[EasterJoy]

I didn’t say that. I said just the opposite. You’re being emotional.

As to EasterJoy, I think the disagreement has a lot to do over political and economic systems (i.e. capitalism) and their ability or inability to address these moral issues. We also probably disagree about cultural cohesion and assimilation.

I will say that immigration is of far smaller concern compared to the societal moral rot that holds sway in the States. What good is it to manage your borders if you are rotten within?

This ought to be made into a different thread, now that the magazine thing is settled.

If your cancer is metastatic, you usually have to address it on all fronts, and not go after one tumor at a time. Besides, this is a vale of tears, we are all sinners, and there is no system that will change that.

I think the world moves through one kind of rot into another, and then into a third, and so on. It is like the description in the Screwtape Letters of the “fashions” in sin that the tempter leans on from one period of time to the next. The temptations change, but the temptations never cease. Capitalism can be as moral as any economic system, if God’s law comes before making money. There are temptations to evil in it, but it isn’t inherently evil. Assuming that the money-lending it requires is honest investment that doesn’t descend into usury, and those in it love the people and use the things, instead of the other way around, capitalism may be as good as it gets.

I think it is Steven Covey that says that “the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.” I think there are some main things that we have to keep track of as we try to navigate all these problems. Where people are suffering, the suffering can’t be ignored. Someone asked Mother Theresa why she did the work she did, but didn’t work to change the systems that produced the suffering she was attending to. Her reply? She was putting her all into the work that God had given her to do. The other work was good to do, but it wasn’t hers. So I don’t think everyone has to be directly feeding the poor with their own hands. Some people have the work of perhaps helping those who do it materially, while at the same time doing other work to attack the root of the problem. Maybe a third group gives moral support to them, but does their “hands on” work in enforcing the rule of law in the most humane way that it can be enforced.

There are good Catholics crossing the border illegally, good Catholics who feed them in their need, good Catholics who have the job of catching and punishing those who profiteer from their labor, and yes, good Catholics who in all good conscience have to send at least some of the first group back. I think the American Catholics can work together to make the system less at cross-purposes with all the competing moral questions, but that alone won’t solve the problem. If the story of the Finding in the Temple doesn’t say anything else, it has to say that even very good people have problems and worries to work out with each other in this life.

I’m sure there are also deeply criminal Catholics illegally crossing the border and helping others to cross for entirely selfish and cynical reasons, rationalizing Catholics who aren’t driven across the border by true need but by an unwillingness to wait their turn for opportunity, indifferent Catholics who do not care that the poor are suffering or being exploited, and thoughtless but well-meaning Catholics who think that if the border were simply opened, the whole problem would go away. I don’t think there is one side of this problem that is full of the “good” people and one side that is full of the misguided or deluded or selfish ones. It isn’t like that. And of course, it’s not all Catholics in the mix.

Cultural cohesion and assimiliation, that is a whole 'nother horse altogether! Maybe we need two more threads.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

The bishops have said that the border should be secure and future immigrants should be documented.

As I recall history, America is full of immigrants from Europe, who overthrew the native population, and claimed it for themselves.

Strange how the ancestors of these immigrants, should now want to close the boarder to other immigrants.

The land belongs to God, we are all temporary custodians, and we should be charitable towards the less fortunate.

Poverty and Justice Bible
Scholars have taken the trouble to go through the Bible and highlight all the passages that refer to justice for the poor.
Using the clear Contemporary English Version (CEV) text, it highlights more than 2,000 verses that spell out God’s attitude to poverty and justice.
http://www.povertyandjusticebible.org/news.php?NEWS_ID=29

Blessings

Eric

 

[EasterJoy]

As I recall history, America is full of immigrants from Europe, who overthrew the native population, and claimed it for themselves.

Having said that, there is no reason to believe that the natives who occupied the land when the Europeans got here were the first to have occupied it, or that they themselves had not displaced others to get it. It is not as if war was unknown in the New World before the Europeans got here.

To be fair, it’s been a pretty rare American who’s thought that nobody new should be allowed to come, although there have been some. The more common question has always been a) who can really become “one of us”?–we tend to lack imagination on that one–and b) how many of these can we absorb and how do we do it in order to remain at peace? That latter one is not so easy to answer.

We’ve had our ups and downs, but there isn’t a country in the world or in history that’s had more imagination or generosity in answering those questions over the long haul than we have. We could have done better, but we certainly shouldn’t be ashamed that we do in fact have a border, any more than we should be ashamed to have a front door on our home that closes.

There are places where front doors are always left unlocked, true, but those are places where the respect is in place as much outside the door as within it.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

.

Laws are meant to be obeyed, not subject to the sort of racism-disguised-as-compassion that trumpets, 'There, there, you don’t have to obey any laws or live up to any standards because you’re merely (fill in the blank)."

If a law is good it must apply to everyone.

If other countries have a right to secure their borders so do we.

All the law of God hangs on the greatest commandments, which means loving God and loving our neighbour. Who is my neighbour the lawyer asked trying to justify himself?

And Jesus gave us the parable of the ‘Good Samaritan’ which did not go down well with the Jewish way of thinking. If Jesus was telling that parable today he might say about an American victim in the gutter, the priest and the deacon walk by, but the Mexican Muslim stops to help.

Blessings

Eric

 

[Tietjen]

The Bishops in this country do more harm than good when they get involved with social issues in this country. The best example is the healthcare scam that was passed recently. Thankfully we are not required to agree with their left leaning political views.

Some here say that the Bishops should not get involved in political issues. Now you are insinuating that the Bishops should stay out of social issues. Just what issues should they involve themselves in…? Choosing the paint color of parish washrooms? You are correct in those matters other than those of faith and morals do not have to be agreed upon by the laity. Just remember that we are all called to be charitable and ask yourself if you had been born in a country where you could not financially support your family would you cross a border in order to feed them or would you say, “Sorry honey, you and the kids are just going to have to starve”? Also, remember that USCCB is not advocating an open border. They are in favor of securing it. However, the question is what to do about those who are already here and trying to earn enough to support their family. Are they just out of luck?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I came here as an illegal immigrant when I was 4 years old. I feel so incredible hurt to hear some of the people on this forum express their opinions. I keep hearing people essentially say, “well… if I give some of my bread out to another… I wont have much bread to eat myself.”
How can you, in good conscious, say such a thing? Man does not live on bread alone!

One of the things that I love about being Catholic is how the church operates as a paradox. We are conservative on abortion and liberal on immigration. It is things like this that have always helped me to see the beauty and truth of the Catholic church. It’s willingness to defend families, and those without a voice! But some of you sound like a bunch of southern conservative protestants.

Many of the arguments some people here have used against illegal immigration can be applied for a pro abortion position or anti poor. “Well, if we allow this criminal to have his/her baby, then she/he will use up all our countries resources and there wont be enough bread for me.”

Seek spiritual bread instead.

No—we can not.

There is a clear dividing line between right and wrong.

It is wrong to allow illegal aliens to break our country’s laws. It is wrong to allow abortion.

If you showed up on my step asking for bread, that is a different story. But allowing for lawbreaking because of race or religion is wrong, period.

If you love your neighbor you do not allow him to break the law ‘just because’ of color or ethnicity. That way lies the slippery slope.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Well, then you agree with the USCCB because they are NOT saying "Drop the borders and let everyone in. They ARE calling for immigration reform which includes placing those who are here illegally on a “work program” which will allow them to become citizens over time; at the same time, enacting a more vigilant screening system to keep the bad guys out; etc. Basically, the USCCB does not want to play politics nor does it wish to disregard U.S. laws. Instead, it wants to see those laws reformed so that families can eventually be together, criminals are kept out, hard working men and women earn a decent wage, and families (in this country or another) are not left to starve because of uncaring laws regarding national borders.

Some, only see this as a situation where if we let allow illegal immigrants to stay, we’re risking another 9/11 or those illegal immigrants will take away a job that they may have wanted to do. But the facts don’t support their case and to deny millions the ability to provide for their families at the cost of a “what if” is ludicrous when an actual very real problem such as families suffering already is happening.

Yes. The law right now is that for a Mexican immigrant to legally migrate is very difficult. Does everyone know that there is a Green Card lottery, but Mexican nationals do not qualify?

That law is not enforced, so we get most people who want to cross the border in…the good and the bad.

Can we let in the good workers and screen out the criminals?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

No—we can not.

There is a clear dividing line between right and wrong.

It is wrong to allow illegal aliens to break our country’s laws.

Please tell me your ancestors are native American, and your ancestors are not illegal immigrants from Europe who took America from the Indians by force.

Just one small point, we can put boarders and boundaries up where we like, but all the land belongs to God, we are all temporary custodians, and all people are God’s children.

Blessings

Eric