Looking for biblical evidence of "when does life begin?"

[cho_pilo]

The soul is immediately placed into the “clump of cells” which formed as a result of the sperm penetrating the egg. This “clump of cells” is a human “clump of cells” which will soon develop into a zygote, fetus, intant, baby, child, teen, adult, geriatric… The soul is present immediately upon impact and the first instant of conception. The soul’s presence is what makes abortion such an atrocity.

It seems that identical twins share a “soul”. Please clarify.

 

[RosaryFan]

It seems that identical twins share a “soul”. Please clarify.

Identical twins do not share a soul. There are two people and, therefore, two souls. What’s to clarify? When there is one person, there is one soul. When there are two people, there are two souls.

FYI: Conjoined twins also do not share a soul. An organ, maybe, but not a soul.

 

[RosaryFan]

So the cells that rub off my skin everyday have a soul? A bag of blood has a soul?

There are more cells in both of them than there are initially after contraception. Further more if the soul passes to the cells on contraception then when latter the embrio splits to form identical twins does the soul split? If so does it only partially split if they are Siamese twins? Further more if someone was to use my DNA to clone me would that mean my soul split and how would that be different from my sperm impregnating my partner except that it would be all my DNA insted of partially hers. Please clarify.

At contraception, there is a new life beginning. That is slightly different than cells falling off your skin or a bag of blood.

Seriously, do you not see the difference?

 

[brumano]

One of the most obvious verses is:

Jeremaih 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Now, modernists will wiggle their way around this by saying it applied only to Jeremiah. I ask: How can one believe in an omnipotent, omniscient God who does not know us even before He creates us?

Right they can wiggle all they want but they already know that there is no wiggling out of the truth, itis at that point that they will flat out deny, because even in Jer.c1v5 it can be easily understood that the One who formed him in the womb also created the people of all nations.
We could take alot of other context from Jeremiah that proves this, but moving on to Luke c1v15 and v44 illustrates the revealled truth with crystal clarity.
Another and by no means all of the other scriptural statements which support the moral teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that life bgins at the moment of conception (not as if there should have ever been a valid question about this) comes in Gal.c1v 15 which is very similar to Jer.c1v5 and it can be used because if St Paul was set apart from the womb, he must have been known in the womb. So the pro death apollogists of all kinds can’t really say that scripturally Jeremiah was the only human whose life began in the womb, because we already have two more in his company; St. John the Baptist and here in Gal., St. Paul.

I’d offer another passage that is also a direct statement about this truth that life begins at conception, this time from Our Lord Himself who is the source of all truth: Jn.c 16 v21 while speaking somewhat figuratively about his leaving, going to the Father and at some time returning he uses tthe figure of a woman in travail to give birth…“When a woman is in pain to give birth she is in great anguish because her time has come, but when the child is born she forgets the sorrow for joy that a child is born into the world.”

You see that The Lord says it is a “child [that] is born into the world”. The child is already a child when he or she is born

 

[Salvatore123]

cho,

We had a very lively discussion over the course of several months regarding souls.

Catholic theology teaches that all living things have souls - humans, animals, even plants.

The distinction (and what caused the biggest controversy - I don’t want to debate it here - I am just pointing it out) was that human beings have immortal souls whereas animals and plants have mortal souls. Carried to its logical end (if you assume the premise as true), an immortal soul survives a mortal body, whereas a mortal soul dies with a mortal body.

A soul is that which animates a human, an animal, and a plant. It makes it “alive”.

Regarding twins, as another poster said, two people = two souls - even if they are identical twins.

Regarding cells and blood and organs - one will face the hurdles of definitions when dealing with cells. Cells, combined, can form a living thing such as a human, an animal, and a plant. Yet, absent life saving measures or advanced technology, cells do not “live” separate from the “being” where they were created or multiplied.

I have never heard blood or an organ described as “alive”.

I assume you asked, tongue-in-cheek, if a skin cell or a bag of blood or an organ had a soul - correct?

 

[cho_pilo]

Identical twins do not share a soul. There are two people and, therefore, two souls. What’s to clarify? When there is one person, there is one soul. When there are two people, there are two souls.

FYI: Conjoined twins also do not share a soul. An organ, maybe, but not a soul.

But, you claim the soul enters the zygote at conception. At conception there is just one zygote… therefore, one “soul”. Does the soul split into two when the zygote splits?

 

[Nelka]

Great point. Depending upon which bible translation you have, Mary might have left the same day to visit Elizabeth. That would make Jesus only a few cells.

Please don’t call Jesus (or any baby) a few cells; it is degrading.

When the baby is one minute old in the womb, it is still a baby and she be protected.

In the UK you can murder a baby up to 24 weeks, my friend had her baby a short while ago, 20 weeks old.

 

[RosaryFan]

But, you claim the soul enters the zygote at conception. At conception there is just one zygote… therefore, one “soul”. Does the soul split into two when the zygote splits?

I am extremely flattered that you think I would know the answer to all of God’s secrets. Are you asking if the zygote’s soul splits to make a second soul, or if God places a second soul when the one zygote becomes two? Maybe God places two souls in the one zygote because He knows it will split soon. Maybe that’s what causes the zygote to split. I’ll be sure to ask God that very question when and if I get to heaven. I’ll drop you a line when I find out exactly what God does. So when God fills me in on His plans (unworthy though I am), I’ll pass that info right on ot you.

What difference would it make either way? All things are possible with God, so He can do whatever He wants.

You sound like you’re having a hard time accepting that a zygote would have a soul to begin with. When do you suppose God places the soul into His beloved children?

 

[Evan]

It appears that both Jesus and John the Baptist were alive at the time of the Visitation. Luke 1:44

I think you got the wrong verse

Luke 1:43 says

But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Since Jesus was Mary’s firstborn and only 2-3 days in the womb. Mary is called mother. Mother assumes a Child. So Jesus HUMAN life began when just a few cells in the womb of Mary.

 

[Salvatore123]

cho,

You said: “you claim the soul enters the zygote at conception. At conception there is just one zygote… therefore, one “soul”. Does the soul split into two when the zygote splits?”

Catholic theology teaches that a human being comes into existence at the moment of conception. That moment is defined as the penetration of the egg by a sperm. Implantation is not necessary for the the “process” to be complete. A human being exists before implantation.

We know that in the case of identical twins, a zygote (the name given to the egg that has been penetrated by the sperm) can, for a certain number of days after its creation, divide into two or more zygotes.

Medical science does not yet know how or why a zygote divides. Because of the absence of knowledge on this point, the Catholic Church (based on the research I conducted) has no official teaching. Therefore, Catholics are free to speculate what might occur, provided their speculation does not violate a teaching already validated as true by the Church.

I think one of two things can occur:

A. One soul is created and infused at the moment a zygote is created. Upon fissioning by the zygote, the existing soul also fissions and goes into the various zygotes (twins, triplets, quadruplets, etc.).

OR

B. Multiple souls are created and infused into the zygote upon its creation, and upon fissioning, the mutiple souls are “parceled out” into the various zygotes.

I am partial to the second theory, as I personally don’t like the idea of “soul dividing” or “soul splitting”. I think that, upon penetration of the egg by the sperm, something occurs between that sperm and egg that sets in motion the setting for zygote fissioning. That something - again, must my opinion - also sets into motion the creation of the individual souls based on the number of zygote divisions.

 

[onenow1]

Great point. Depending upon which bible translation you have, Mary might have left the same day to visit Elizabeth. That would make Jesus only a few cells.

Luke 1: 39, She made haste in those days.

 

[RosaryFan]

cho,

You said: “you claim the soul enters the zygote at conception. At conception there is just one zygote… therefore, one “soul”. Does the soul split into two when the zygote splits?”

Catholic theology teaches that a human being comes into existence at the moment of conception. That moment is defined as the penetration of the egg by a sperm. Implantation is not necessary for the the “process” to be complete. A human being exists before implantation.

We know that in the case of identical twins, a zygote (the name given to the egg that has been penetrated by the sperm) can, for a certain number of days after its creation, divide into two or more zygotes.

Medical science does not yet know how or why a zygote divides. Because of the absence of knowledge on this point, the Catholic Church (based on the research I conducted) has no official teaching. Therefore, Catholics are free to speculate what might occur, provided their speculation does not violate a teaching already validated as true by the Church.

I think one of two things can occur:

A. One soul is created and infused at the moment a zygote is created. Upon fissioning by the zygote, the existing soul also fissions and goes into the various zygotes (twins, triplets, quadruplets, etc.).

OR

B. Multiple souls are created and infused into the zygote upon its creation, and upon fissioning, the mutiple souls are “parceled out” into the various zygotes.

I am partial to the second theory, as I personally don’t like the idea of “soul dividing” or “soul splitting”. I think that, upon penetration of the egg by the sperm, something occurs between that sperm and egg that sets in motion the setting for zygote fissioning. That something - again, must my opinion - also sets into motion the creation of the individual souls based on the number of zygote divisions.

Thanks, Salvatore. You’re answer is a lot better than mine.

 

[po18guy]

Please don’t call Jesus (or any baby) a few cells; it is degrading.

When the baby is one minute old in the womb, it is still a baby and she be protected.

In the UK you can murder a baby up to 24 weeks, my friend had her baby a short while ago, 20 weeks old.

Degrading? This is the biology of how God chose to form the flesh of His Son! Facts are facts. His human nature was, at that point, just a few growing cells. The point is that it was not only a life, but God in the flesh - even if only at the point where the egg had just begun to divide. Do you see the point of this reasoning? Post-conception, no matter the stage of development, it was Christ. And, so it is with all human babies.

 

[po18guy]

Luke 1: 39, She made haste in those days.

Some bibles translate it as “At that time…” which could mean even the same day.

 

[Spirithound]

But, you claim the soul enters the zygote at conception. At conception there is just one zygote… therefore, one “soul”. Does the soul split into two when the zygote splits?

I lean towards the opinion that if the zygote splits, God implants another soul.

 

[Salvatore123]

Spirithound,

As I said in my post, I lean in that direction too.

Something about “soul splitting” doesn’t sit well with me . . .

 

[jcrichton]

So the cells that rub off my skin everyday have a soul? A bag of blood has a soul?

There are more cells in both of them than there are initially after contraception. Further more if the soul passes to the cells on contraception then when latter the embrio splits to form identical twins does the soul split? If so does it only partially split if they are Siamese twins? Further more if someone was to use my DNA to clone me would that mean my soul split and how would that be different from my sperm impregnating my partner except that it would be all my DNA insted of partially hers. Please clarify.

I think you mean inception ("contraception’); since God knows each of our names (knowing from God’s perspective not human) I believe that He calls us (the spiritual child) as individuals which would necessitate individual souls for multiple splits; on DNA and spirit… if we follow the premise that even a speck of the Holy Eucharist contains Christ fully, the soul, being the Spirit of God, could very well be found on each composite of our biology (Yahweh God speaks of Abel’s blood crying out to Him after Cain’s treacherous deed–though it may have been symbolic, it could well have been Yahweh revelation about His Spirit which was infused into us at Creation); but would God accept man’s manipulation of nature and allow multiple souls to be reproduced by man’s whym?

As far as the impregnation (are you non-Catholic or just adapting to society’s politically correctness?) of your spouse vs. cloning: cloned DNA is simply a copy of the exact composition while a child’s composition is a composite of both the Mom’s and Dad’s biology–conversely, the sould would originate from God as an original Creation (not so with cloning–unless Yahweh is all up for human cloning).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[marica_mandic]

The bible says “you shall not murder.”

If we talk about contraception and abortion, when is it considered life exactly? We can quickly say “at conception!”

My questions –

When is it a child? Does the bible say anything about this?

Our spirit is before
conception.
Spirit is important, life on Earth is just to see where we go after Earth.

 

[Evan]

cloned DNA is simply a copy of the exact composition while a child’s composition is a composite of both the Mom’s and Dad’s biology–conversely, the sould would originate from God as an original Creation (not so with cloning–unless Yahweh is all up for human cloning).

God is up for human cloning. We call the identical twins (or triplets, or quads etc). The biological material may be the same, but the souls are unique.

 

[meltzerboy]

A soul is infused the moment a human being is created, and a human being is created the moment a sperm penetrates an egg.

It is important to note that we cannot go back too far in history to look for teaching of when a soul or even a person is created.

St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas did not have the necessary scientific knowledge to make such pronouncements at the time that corresponded with what we know today. Some Church Fathers believed that a soul was infused with a developing child a certain number of days after conception.

Basically, the CCC teaches that a soul is that which animates a person’s body, and the soul is created by God.

According to Jewish interpretation, based on Genesis, the soul of the human being (the breath of life) is infused AFTER G-d creates the body, which is formed from the earth; in other words, immediately before birth. That is when the full status of human–including soul–is achieved.