Looking for ideas to make Mass and the Church more meaningful

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, there is ‘meaningful’ and ‘meaningful’.

I happen to attend a parish which is stuck in the 70s in all the worst possible ways.

Many (though not all) find this incredibly ‘meaningful’. Mass is well attended, though for all the hoopla of the local Catholic school and the “Friday Masses at school”, when it comes to children attending, there are not that many. Nor are there that many young families. And it isn’t that Father isn’t welcoming, he loves to have the kids come and stand up around the altar and answer questions during the homily, and there is always the coffee and donut hour after Mass, and the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus and all that.

But families, and people in general, while they love the Easter and Christmas services, don’t seem to want to come regularly on a Sunday (or Saturday). There is too much for families to do that ‘competes’. During the school year, the kids are involved in sports. During the summer, they’re at camp, they’re just ‘relaxing’. Nobody wants to get up at 9 a.m. (the only Mass time Sunday) or stop having fun on a Saturday at 4 p.m. And hey, during the year the kids have Mass once a week, that’s fine, right? And heck, they’ll go maybe ‘split shift’ a couple of times in the summer, that’s cool, right? And they’ll come in droves for all the fundraisers and the BBQs and the Italian spaghetti nights and all that, and they’ll send in money (it’s never much but we Catholics have been notorious for the ‘dollar in the collection basket’ for decades), and they’ll talk up how cool their parish is (all the ‘cultural’ part) because when they do show up, all they hear is great they are, how wonderful they are, how amazing they are. . .and it’s all the ‘comfort’ of the songs they grew up with, and it’s never boring because the priest ad libs the entire Mass and the most the congregation ever has to say is once or twice "and with your Spirit’, The Lord’s prayer, ‘Thanks be to God’, "May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands. . " we never have a penitential rite, a Gloria, or a Creed, the choir sings the responsorial Haugen-Haas hymn (weeks at a stretch for each one), the choir sings the Great Amen, the Choir sings the hillbilly Holy Holy , "When we eat this bread’, and Lamb of God. . .the people literally have no participation and can just sit back and be entertained, jokes, praise of them, funny stories of how much better we (and the priest) are than those stuffy rigid morons at all the other churches. . .

So ways to make our Church more meaningful?
I’d be told by the majority it was already prit near perfect.

But is this the kind of ‘meaningful’ we want?

Is it possible that, in this case anyway, making Mass truly meaningful would involve pretty much ‘undoing’ everything that supposedly makes it so wonderful, and instead:

Saying the red and doing the black.
Letting the people participate like ‘all the others’.
Being obedient even when we feel we know so much better.
Hearing the ‘hard stuff’ instead of all the 'our spiritual journey -(I’d still like to know WHERE we’re going. That is never mentioned. Heaven isn’t even mentioned. We’re supposed to be making our life on earth the best it can be apparently).
‘Reteaching’ the basics.
Stop expecting the least and start reaching for the best, among people. . .

Right now we are ‘getting out’ of the Mass only what one man has decided we are allowed to experience, based on his wishes and his understanding. He is a kind man, by his lights a loving man, but he is just one man, and as a priest one could say, well meaning as he is, objectively he is being disobedient to his bishop and to the Church he is part of, and to the people he is supposed to lead, by his decision to do a Mass ‘his way’ instead of the Church’s way. . .so the fruits, even using all the bells and whistles to make parish life ‘meaningful’ are turning into Dead Sea Fruit in the long run,

I am indeed praying for Mass to be more meaningful.

 

[steve_b]

I happen to attend a parish which is stuck in the 70s in all the worst possible ways.

Many (though not all) find this incredibly ‘meaningful’. Mass is well attended, though for all the hoopla of the local Catholic school and the “Friday Masses at school”, when it comes to children attending, there are not that many. Nor are there that many young families. And it isn’t that Father isn’t welcoming, he loves to have the kids come and stand up around the altar and answer questions during the homily, and there is always the coffee and donut hour after Mass, and the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus and all that.

But families, and people in general, while they love the Easter and Christmas services, don’t seem to want to come regularly on a Sunday (or Saturday). There is too much for families to do that ‘competes’.

This is why Jesus, who knows everything, told us in advance

Matthew 7:13-14 ,

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth",

Re: the hierarchy of love and those people and families you elude to

Jesus speaking
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment.* 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”*

Re: those people and families who have too much in their life that competes with their obligation to God so God takes 2nd place or lower…

Jesus makes the point with those 2 commands, don’t get the order of love, backwards.

When we love creatures and the creation more than God, as Jesus says, we’ll have the door shut in our face when we try and enter heaven.

I think the problem is, people don’t fear God nor the consequences for disobedience to His commands.
Tantum:

Stop expecting the least and start reaching for the best, among people. . .

Exactly.
Tantum:

Right now we are ‘getting out’ of the Mass only what one man has decided we are allowed to experience, based on his wishes and his understanding. He is a kind man, by his lights a loving man, but he is just one man, and as a priest one could say, well meaning as he is, objectively he is being disobedient to his bishop and to the Church he is part of, and to the people he is supposed to lead, by his decision to do a Mass ‘his way’ instead of the Church’s way. . .

What specifically is he doing wrong?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Are you sure these people you mention who don’t show up for Mass, aren’t going to Mass somewhere else?

Having only one Mass at 9 am on a Sunday would pretty much ensure that I rarely went to that church. I have always lived in areas with multiple Mass options so I can find an 11, 12, 5:15 or even 7 pm on the Sunday, or a vigil the evening before. I realize in some areas maybe there’s only one parish for miles around, but I can’t imagine if that was the case that they would have only one Sunday Mass, or is this a really remote area?

 

[steve_b]

Are you sure these people you mention who don’t show up for Mass, aren’t going to Mass somewhere else?

It’s about going to mass faithfully, on Sunday or Saturday vigil. That could be anywhere, not just in one’s personal parish

 

[Ernie07]

May I suggest, something else is going on there with them. One can’t be “totally committed” to Jesus but “not the Church”

That’s a contradiction:

You and I are in agreement because we know the truth, but that’s not entirely true in reality…their reality. I can tell you that I personally know several people who are as “totally committed” to Jesus as Protestants as any Catholic I know. Just trying to be fair minded.

Besides, now that they are no longer attending mass, the reality is, they are in mortal sin. This then is their situation #25 ]

It also demonstrates THEY didn’t have faith they thought they had:

Again, I agree with you because we know the truth, but I know people who love the Lord, tried as hard as they could to love Him through the Catholic Church (through the Sacraments, Bible studies, etc.) and just weren’t fed like they are at a Protestant-based church. I’m the type that first looks in the mirror so my first reaction is not to blame the fallen-away Catholic, but the Church that let it happen. Hence, why I started this thread. What can the Church (leaders and laypeople) do to keep and bring back Catholics?

I would ask them, What was the matter with THEIR faith, that they would allow others to affect them so much.

Them leaving, is no different than the others leaving that they complained about. It shows THEY really didn’t believe either or they never would have left Jesus. Yes THEY left Jesus. There is no Eucharist in ANY Protestant group no matter the stripe. No Eucharist no Jesus. Know Eucharist know Jesus.:

Agreed, but some people are not strong on their own and need support and encouragement from others. The whole, “there are more followers than leaders” type of thing. And I’m not looking to argue with them, but rather create an environment where people who step into a Catholic Mass say, “wow, I want what these people have” Can we honestly say we have that today? If there is a parish out there that has that then we should all shamelessly plagiarize what they’re doing!!

Could Jesus be more on fire for what He was teaching? So why did His disciples leave Him? [Jn 6:52-70]

Bottom line people leave Our Lord and His Church because they have no faith, or a faith very weak…

As Peter says

2 Pet 1: 5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For*** if ***these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, ***be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if ***you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

"IF" indicates condition(s). When the condition is met, as Peter says, one won’t fall…

Agreed so let’s look in the mirror and ask ourselves, “what can we do to help others obtain that free gift of faith or improve upon it”.

Thanks for the dialogue.

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

Good point and yes. I think it has to be a spiritual program, first. Secondly, there has to be dedicated leaders who will stick with it for the long-run. Groups could form and then disperse, but the message would penetrate through the parish that way.

We have tried this in a couple of ways:

1. We had dedicated lay leaders who ran the groups, organized and set up the meetings. This was very successful and built lasting friendships that have gone on for years. However, the work was too much and the lay leaders burned out, thus the whole thing eventually stopped. The problem here was nobody wanted to step up and lead (we needed a dozen guys like you, Ernie – and even one is rare to find!)
2. The second approach has worked better. Instead of meeting, we do regular phone calls and conference calls. This is based something like an AA meeting, where people work on their spiritual goals and building virtues. The calls are once a week. Each person takes a turn to lead the call. Then, one-on-one calls can be done to keep people active. If someone drops out, we stay in touch to see if they will return.

This also takes dedicated leadership.

I guess the difficult news is, that anything that requires a lot of volunteer work at the parish level is going to be very difficult to maintain.
At the same time, if the leadership is salaried employees - that can hurt the spontaneous nature of it also.

The ideal thing, years ago it would work this way, in the parish would have religious priests or sisters doing this. When we had loads of vocations, that’s what would happen. But now, we just have to struggle with the best we can.

Phone calls, even just a 10 minute call - I think is the best way to reach people in this too-busy world. A 20 minute conference call, once a week – with a prayer, some reflection on the virtues, a little news about what’s going on, and a chance to share – that can have a big impact. Plus, nobody has to leave what they’re doing. People can dial in on a cell phone even if they’re at a kids softball game or whatever.

Hi Reggie,

Thanks for sharing your ideas because I really like the conference call idea. With people as busy as they are (unfortunately it’s just the reality as I must admit that I allow myself to get “too busy”) it can be difficult to get people to leave their homes and commit to a weekly meeting. A conference call can be one technique to help with that issue. A Skype session with video cameras turned on can possibly be even more effective.

The thing that you are doing is staying connected in some way. Whether it’s a weekly meeting, conference call, or other technique…staying together and forming relationships is the key. One idea I had was to have small group leaders that facilitated a group of 10 with a “higher level leader” that “manages” 100 total or 10 small groups. The 10 can meet on a weekly basis and maybe the full 100 on a quarterly basis to learn from each other. My thinking was to get greater exposure to more parishioners giving another opportunity for wider spread relationship building.

I know I’m dreaming a little…

Thanks again!

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

Thank you for this reference as I will look into it in greater detail. I know of this group by way of Cardinal Burke as he is one of the few Church leaders that has stood against the Protestant based Alpha program. I will definitely take a strong look at this Apostolate.

Thank you very much!

-Ernie-

Hi uuu2Me,

I’ve looked into the Marian Catechist Apostolate in greater detail and it looks awesome! It’s almost exactly the kind of thing I’ve been searching for, but to be quite honest I’m concerned that I won’t be able to measure up to its high standards. I’m just being honest as I’m the type in the parable of the weeds where the seeds get spread on rocky ground, grow like crazy, and wither away due to lack of roots. Just being honest!! Haha!

But again, I just wanted to thank you for pointing out this great apostolate to me (and all of us). At the absolute minimum if I were to employ even one of the spiritual practices or take one course it will push me ever more closer to Jesus. Thanks again!

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

Yes, along with the other points I mentioned. Jesus spoke in parables for people to understand. It’s like that.

Got it. Thanks!

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

Every time I hear something about a program to revitalize parishes or get people excited about the faith, it always seems to come down to having some type of small group meetings for Bible study and discussing life’s challenges. I have even seen this presented as something like “Many people don’t get anything out of the rosary or Eucharistic Adoration but they’d love a Bible Study group.” While this statement is no doubt true, it (1) made me sad and (2) didn’t reflect my own feelings so why would I want to hang around in a group with a bunch of people who feel so differently from me.

I tried the “small group” thing years ago when one of my parishes did it for Lent. The people I met were very nice but I honestly did not get much out of discussing the Bible in a group and I sure didn’t want to talk to near-total strangers about challenges I faced in my life that week. By contrast, I really enjoy getting together to pray the Rosary or the Flame of Love Cenacle with others. This doesn’t require me to over-share.

I’m not knocking the option of the Bible study/ group share thing for people who enjoy it but I’d like to see more devotional groups too and not feel like groups concentrating on prayer or more traditional devotions are being set to one side…

You bring up a really interesting point that not one “program” will meet all the needs of the parish. It is important to meet people where they’re at on their faith journey…some may need more education, others like sharing in small groups, others want traditional devotionals…it would seem that a thriving parish would have multiple “programs” to satisfy as many parishioners as possible.

So, how do we find out the needs of the parish? Have you or anyone else viewing this thread had any experience in parish surveys or other methods to understand the faith needs of the parish? Would you ask questions about their faith to “test” their knowledge (in order to know what they need) or make it more personal by asking what would help them to have greater faith in the Church, Eucharist, etc.? Maybe a combination of both?

As for volunteer opportunities, it would be great if there was some place to find them on a consistent basis. A lot of charities would like your donations but are not as open to having bodies on site to volunteer as you would think. Other volunteer activities I see are age-restricted, for example there’s lots of stuff for the youth group to do but nothing for middle-aged people. This is not just a parish issue, it’s something I see in the greater community as well. If you’re just looking for a place to go volunteer you have to go hunt for one and then possibly even compete with other volunteers to get your foot in the door. It can be discouraging.

Another interesting point as volunteer opportunities should be cognizant of all ages, sex, etc. in making sure all feel welcomed and valued. Great point!

Thanks!

-Ernie-

 

[steve_b]

You and I are in agreement because we know the truth, but that’s not entirely true in reality…their reality. I can tell you that I personally know several people who are as “totally committed” to Jesus as Protestants as any Catholic I know. Just trying to be fair minded.

Again, I agree with you because we know the truth, but I know people who love the Lord, tried as hard as they could to love Him through the Catholic Church (through the Sacraments, Bible studies, etc.) and just weren’t fed like they are at a Protestant-based church. I’m the type that first looks in the mirror so my first reaction is not to blame the fallen-away Catholic, but the Church that let it happen. Hence, why I started this thread. What can the Church (leaders and laypeople) do to keep and bring back Catholics?

Agreed, but some people are not strong on their own and need support and encouragement from others. The whole, “there are more followers than leaders” type of thing. And I’m not looking to argue with them, but rather create an environment where people who step into a Catholic Mass say, “wow, I want what these people have” Can we honestly say we have that today? If there is a parish out there that has that then we should all shamelessly plagiarize what they’re doing!!

Agreed so let’s look in the mirror and ask ourselves, “what can we do to help others obtain that free gift of faith or improve upon it”.

Thanks for the dialogue.

-Ernie-

I would just say,

Jesus “in the flesh, body blood soul and divinity” couldn’t keep His own disciples from leaving Him. Why? As Jesus said they had no faith.

Paul warned again and again not to divide from the Church they are building. Obviously they weren’t obedient to that warning.

People’s actions have consequences. All we can do is give people information.

If People insist on doing THEIR will not God’s will, that has consequences.

 

[Ernie07]

Well, there is ‘meaningful’ and ‘meaningful’.

I happen to attend a parish which is stuck in the 70s in all the worst possible ways.

Many (though not all) find this incredibly ‘meaningful’. Mass is well attended, though for all the hoopla of the local Catholic school and the “Friday Masses at school”, when it comes to children attending, there are not that many. Nor are there that many young families. And it isn’t that Father isn’t welcoming, he loves to have the kids come and stand up around the altar and answer questions during the homily, and there is always the coffee and donut hour after Mass, and the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus and all that.

But families, and people in general, while they love the Easter and Christmas services, don’t seem to want to come regularly on a Sunday (or Saturday). There is too much for families to do that ‘competes’. During the school year, the kids are involved in sports. During the summer, they’re at camp, they’re just ‘relaxing’. Nobody wants to get up at 9 a.m. (the only Mass time Sunday) or stop having fun on a Saturday at 4 p.m. And hey, during the year the kids have Mass once a week, that’s fine, right? And heck, they’ll go maybe ‘split shift’ a couple of times in the summer, that’s cool, right? And they’ll come in droves for all the fundraisers and the BBQs and the Italian spaghetti nights and all that, and they’ll send in money (it’s never much but we Catholics have been notorious for the ‘dollar in the collection basket’ for decades), and they’ll talk up how cool their parish is (all the ‘cultural’ part) because when they do show up, all they hear is great they are, how wonderful they are, how amazing they are. . .and it’s all the ‘comfort’ of the songs they grew up with, and it’s never boring because the priest ad libs the entire Mass and the most the congregation ever has to say is once or twice "and with your Spirit’, The Lord’s prayer, ‘Thanks be to God’, "May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands. . " we never have a penitential rite, a Gloria, or a Creed, the choir sings the responsorial Haugen-Haas hymn (weeks at a stretch for each one), the choir sings the Great Amen, the Choir sings the hillbilly Holy Holy , "When we eat this bread’, and Lamb of God. . .the people literally have no participation and can just sit back and be entertained, jokes, praise of them, funny stories of how much better we (and the priest) are than those stuffy rigid morons at all the other churches. . .

So ways to make our Church more meaningful?
I’d be told by the majority it was already prit near perfect.

But is this the kind of ‘meaningful’ we want?

Is it possible that, in this case anyway, making Mass truly meaningful would involve pretty much ‘undoing’ everything that supposedly makes it so wonderful, and instead:

Saying the red and doing the black.
Letting the people participate like ‘all the others’.
Being obedient even when we feel we know so much better.
Hearing the ‘hard stuff’ instead of all the 'our spiritual journey -(I’d still like to know WHERE we’re going. That is never mentioned. Heaven isn’t even mentioned. We’re supposed to be making our life on earth the best it can be apparently).
‘Reteaching’ the basics.
Stop expecting the least and start reaching for the best, among people. . .

Right now we are ‘getting out’ of the Mass only what one man has decided we are allowed to experience, based on his wishes and his understanding. He is a kind man, by his lights a loving man, but he is just one man, and as a priest one could say, well meaning as he is, objectively he is being disobedient to his bishop and to the Church he is part of, and to the people he is supposed to lead, by his decision to do a Mass ‘his way’ instead of the Church’s way. . .so the fruits, even using all the bells and whistles to make parish life ‘meaningful’ are turning into Dead Sea Fruit in the long run,

I am indeed praying for Mass to be more meaningful.

Your experience was very similar to my parish as we had one pastor for a very long period of time who had his way of doing things. I loved this priest and we were actually good friends, but looking back on it he was very concerned about being liked rather than challenging the faithful. People got along, we had great attendance for the annual St. Patrick’s Day and Super Bowl parties, everyone got their check mark for confirmation, etc. No controversies and little passion for the faith. That all changed when we got a new pastor.

The new pastor was a traditionalist son-of-a-gun (in a good way in my opinion) who took no prisoners when it came to faith formation. He was appalled enough by the lack of preparation of that year’s Confirmation class that he made them come on weekends for extra teaching. He spoke of heaven and hell and spoke with passion when it comes to the Church and faith. You can imagine the reaction…people left in droves. How dare this new pastor hold us accountable! But, in the end it’s just what we needed…a good kick in the rear end! I wonder if that’s what your parish needs.

Who am I to say, but maybe you can start or suggest a program that might jump start your parish. I found an evangelization program from the Paulist Evangelization Ministries called The Journey that looks very promising. They also have a special course designed for Lent that is focused on the Eucharist called “Living the Eucharist” that my parish has used in the past. Or set up a small group that reads “The Lambs Supper” by Scott Hahn together. Just some thoughts.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

I would just say,

Jesus “in the flesh, body blood soul and divinity” couldn’t keep His own disciples from leaving Him. Why? As Jesus said they had no faith.

Paul warned again and again not to divide from the Church they are building. Obviously they weren’t obedient to that warning.

People’s actions have consequences. All we can do is give people information.

If People insist on doing THEIR will not God’s will, that has consequences.

Hi Steve,

You’re really getting me to think and I greatly appreciate that. I also get where you’re coming from, but when the disciples left Jesus they left Him. When people leave the Catholic Church today they aren’t leaving Jesus, but the Catholic Church. Granted we know the truth about the Catholic Church, but it is different…they aren’t leaving Jesus. They have faith in Jesus, just not in His Church. And that is why I continue to contend that it is the Church that has to look in the mirror and rectify that especially if people are leaving because of faulty teaching or a lack of passion. Those things are correctable.

I definitely believe that people that leave the Church have culpability and are “to blame” to a certain extent, but the Church can’t be absolved for having a role in their leaving. People’s action do have consequences, but I’d say the same for the Church and its members (both leaders and laypeople). To your point, are we giving the faithful information that is digestible and understandable and are we living the faith so that our words have value? It’s a question I think we all must ask ourselves…I know I need to.

Thanks again.

-Ernie-

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So, how do we find out the needs of the parish? Have you or anyone else viewing this thread had any experience in parish surveys or other methods to understand the faith needs of the parish?

One of my parishes does a “parish census” to try to get an idea of how many of each age group, with/ without kids etc. they have. It could include a question or two about faith needs as well, such as “check off activities you would be interested in or participate in already” and then list things like Bible study, devotions, etc.

Would you ask questions about their faith to “test” their knowledge (in order to know what they need)

Good grief, no. Nobody wants to take an exam. Nor should they have to. If somebody isn’t all that smart about dogma or the Bible but still wants to show up and have Bible study or talk about weekly faith challenges or pray a Rosary, then just let them do what they are comfortable with. Not everybody is made to be a theologian or even hang around on CAF

or make it more personal by asking what would help them to have greater faith in the Church, Eucharist, etc.?

This sounds like a nicer approach.

 

[Ernie07]

Good grief, no. Nobody wants to take an exam. Nor should they have to. If somebody isn’t all that smart about dogma or the Bible but still wants to show up and have Bible study or talk about weekly faith challenges or pray a Rosary, then just let them do what they are comfortable with. Not everybody is made to be a theologian or even hang around on CAF

I get it that no one wants to take an exam and that’s not really what I’m getting at. I’m talking about a mechanism to find out, in essence, the faith maturity of the parish. For instance, how many believe in the Real Presence? How many believe in infallibility? Mary doctrine? How many believe in all Church teachings? What beliefs don’t our parishioners believe in? How else do you provide solutions if you don’t know the need (sorry, my sales background showing itself!)? Basically I’m wondering what is the most effective way of understanding this at a parish level.

I’m not talking about becoming a theologian at all. I’m talking about helping people to become staunchly devout Catholics who understand at least the core tenets of their faith in a way that would allow them to defend their faith. Once the mind is won then you can start working the heart. That’s at least my theory.

Thanks for your thoughts.

-Ernie-

 

[steve_b]

Hi Steve,

You’re really getting me to think and I greatly appreciate that. I also get where you’re coming from, but when the disciples left Jesus they left Him. When people leave the Catholic Church today they aren’t leaving Jesus, but the Catholic Church. Granted we know the truth about the Catholic Church, but it is different…they aren’t leaving Jesus.

On the contrary

Who is in

• every tabernacle, body blood soul and divinity, in every Catholic Church 24/7? Jesus.
• every Eucharist, in every mass, body blood, soul, and divinity for every Catholic to receive? Jesus

When a Catholic leaves / divides from the Church, who THEN are they leaving /dividing from, by definition? Jesus.

No Protestant group, reardless of stripe, has a valid Eucharist because no Protestant group has valid ordinations.

Not to mention, all that division διχοστασίαι ] is, and has always been, condemned in scripture and Tradition. What does that consequence bring? "those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven" [Gal 5:21]

At death, that separation / division from God that occured here in this life, is made permanent in the next life.

btw

 [διχοστασίαι](http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm)   ]

Definition = division, dissension, standing apart. separate people into pointless (groundless) factions.

Ernie:

They have faith in Jesus, just not in His Church.

Ernie, That’s a contradiction in terms. Did you see what division does?

Jesus made many conditional statements. What about people who “say” they “love Jesus”?

How does Jesus qualify love for Him on His terms?

John 14:15
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

• If one no longer receives the Eucharist
• if one no longer remains united to. the Catholic Church
• If one no longer receives the sacrament of reconciliation for mortal sins
• etc etc

Are they keeping His commandments? NO.

Can someone “say” they love Jesus? Sure. But is a “said” love satisfactory for Jesus? No. Jesus wants actions. He wants a person to actually live out that love by doing what Jesus commands

It’s like a “said” faith. James calls that a dead faith. So is a “said” love without action.

Ernie:

And that is why I continue to contend that it is the Church that has to look in the mirror and rectify that especially if people are leaving because of faulty teaching or a lack of passion. Those things are correctable.

Judas was 1/12 of the Church. Did people say in that day, because of Judas I’m not going to follow the Church Jesus founded?

AND

If we had zero homilies, and zero music at mass, we would have the Eucharist, which is what Jesus commanded us to receive. In fact He gave us a condition with a huge consequence if we don’t do what He says.

Jn 6:53-56
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

That is a HUGE condition…agreed? NONE bigger. It’s the summit of our faith.

specifically

• When Jesus said, “no life in you” IOW, that person is DEAD spiritually. Dead to whom? No eternal life in whom? It’s Jesus
• Jn 6:56, Abide = to stay, remain. In whom? Jesus.
• Jn 6:56 is a conditional statement. When one does what Jesus says, then abides happens with Jesus and Jesus with us.

Therefore, one who leaves the Eucharist, no longer abides with Jesus nor Jesus with them. Jn 6:56.

Therefore, one who leaves the Catholic Church leaves the Eucharist, AND the result, they no longer abide in Jesus nor Jesus in them. Again from Jn 6:56

Ernie, that is cataclysmic for the soul.

Ernie:

I definitely believe that people that leave the Church have culpability and are “to blame” to a certain extent, but the Church can’t be absolved for having a role in their leaving.People’s action do have consequences, but I’d say the same for the Church and its members (both leaders and laypeople).

Let’s not forget,

Just because “a few” in the hierarchy aren’t acting correctly does it mean the entire hierarchy is to blame. One can always go to another parish.

otoh, when it comes to the rank and file, 78% of Catholics in a Georgetown poll don’t go to mass regularly. Meaning, 78% are spiritually dead because they are in mortal sin. #[25 (https://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14642757&postcount=25)

just talking about proportion here. And those 78% could change that, but it’s their choice. All this that we are talking about, is available to them as well… if they are even interested enough to engage. That’s a big if.

Ernie:

To your point, are we giving the faithful information that is digestible and understandable and are we living the faith so that our words have value? It’s a question I think we all must ask ourselves…I know I need to.

The Church has an avalanche of materials, 2000 years of materials, if one is really interested in learning. It’s digestible and understandable. But no one is there forcing anyone to learn.

Ernie:

Thanks again.

-Ernie-

I’m glad we’re having this discussion

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I get it that no one wants to take an exam and that’s not really what I’m getting at. I’m talking about a mechanism to find out, in essence, the faith maturity of the parish. For instance, how many believe in the Real Presence? How many believe in infallibility? Mary doctrine? How many believe in all Church teachings? What beliefs don’t our parishioners believe in? How else do you provide solutions if you don’t know the need (sorry, my sales background showing itself!)? Basically I’m wondering what is the most effective way of understanding this at a parish level.

I’m not talking about becoming a theologian at all. I’m talking about helping people to become staunchly devout Catholics who understand at least the core tenets of their faith in a way that would allow them to defend their faith. Once the mind is won then you can start working the heart. That’s at least my theory.

I originally came from a working class to middle class area. I guarantee you that many of the people coming to church on Sunday would not know what exactly you meant by “infallibility” or “Mary doctrine”. As far as what they didn’t believe in, this is not always something that people want to share on a questionnaire, and those that do make a statement are likely to say things like “I disagree with the Pope’s position on climate change/ birth control/ gays etc.” in other words something political that I’m not sure you could address. You obviously cannot give a parish-sponsored program critical of the official church teachings, and a program trying to explain or defend the church position on controversies is likely to fall on deaf ears for those who have already decided they don’t agree.

People get engaged with their faith when there are activities offered that they enjoy and that make them feel good. If they happen to learn a little something along the way, so much the better. I would be careful about too much “challenging” or “defending” until you get people engaged. I would say get their hearts first and then their minds follow, not the other way around.

 

[reggieM]

In our diocese, candidates for confirmation or RCIA have to be tested for their knowledge and assent of belief to basic doctrines. Of course, a lot of people don’t care and don’t want to grow or learn - but the OP is looking for ways to try to overcome that.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

RCIA people are likely to be better educated about the faith in general since they made a choice to join and had to attend instruction as adults.

A lot of people were basically born into the Church, did not have onerous requirements in order to get their First Communion or Confirmation when young, and in the years since have never learned, have forgotten, or have dismissed certain teachings, but continue to go to church at least sporadically for any number of reasons.

If the OP’s mission is to educate people about their faith so they better understand and can “defend” it (however one defines that) then that is a different mission from making Mass and the Church a more meaningful experience to those who attend. The two missions aren’t mutually exclusive, but people seeking a more meaningful experience may define “more meaningful” in a lot of ways. For some it might be in terms of more social justice, more volunteering to help others, more friendly/ social/ welcoming atmosphere at the Mass, even different music or homily topics. None of which has anything to do with teaching doctrines of the Church. Those who wish to learn or resolve various faith questions they might have are wanting something different from the guy who wishes the Church would reach out to single people or help more at the soup kitchen.

 

[Ernie07]

On the contrary

Who is in

• every tabernacle, body blood soul and divinity, in every Catholic Church 24/7? Jesus.
• every Eucharist, in every mass, body blood, soul, and divinity for every Catholic to receive? Jesus

When a Catholic leaves / divides from the Church, who THEN are they leaving /dividing from, by definition? Jesus.

No Protestant group, reardless of stripe, has a valid Eucharist because no Protestant group has valid ordinations.

Not to mention, all that division διχοστασίαι ] is, and has always been, condemned in scripture and Tradition. What does that consequence bring? "those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven" [Gal 5:21]

At death, that separation / division from God that occured here in this life, is made permanent in the next life.

btw

 [διχοστασίαι](http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm)   ]

Definition = division, dissension, standing apart. separate people into pointless (groundless) factions.

Ernie, That’s a contradiction in terms. Did you see what division does?

Jesus made many conditional statements. What about people who “say” they “love Jesus”?

How does Jesus qualify love for Him on His terms?

John 14:15
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

• If one no longer receives the Eucharist
• if one no longer remains united to. the Catholic Church
• If one no longer receives the sacrament of reconciliation for mortal sins
• etc etc

Are they keeping His commandments? NO.

Can someone “say” they love Jesus? Sure. But is a “said” love satisfactory for Jesus? No. Jesus wants actions. He wants a person to actually live out that love by doing what Jesus commands

It’s like a “said” faith. James calls that a dead faith. So is a “said” love without action.

Judas was 1/12 of the Church. Did people say in that day, because of Judas I’m not going to follow the Church Jesus founded?

AND

If we had zero homilies, and zero music at mass, we would have the Eucharist, which is what Jesus commanded us to receive. In fact He gave us a condition with a huge consequence if we don’t do what He says.

Jn 6:53-56
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

That is a HUGE condition…agreed? NONE bigger. It’s the summit of our faith.

specifically

• When Jesus said, “no life in you” IOW, that person is DEAD spiritually. Dead to whom? No eternal life in whom? It’s Jesus
• Jn 6:56, Abide = to stay, remain. In whom? Jesus.
• Jn 6:56 is a conditional statement. When one does what Jesus says, then abides happens with Jesus and Jesus with us.

Therefore, one who leaves the Eucharist, no longer abides with Jesus nor Jesus with them. Jn 6:56.

Therefore, one who leaves the Catholic Church leaves the Eucharist, AND the result, they no longer abide in Jesus nor Jesus in them. Again from Jn 6:56

Ernie, that is cataclysmic for the soul.

The Church has an avalanche of materials, 2000 years of materials, if one is really interested in learning. It’s digestible and understandable. But no one is there forcing anyone to learn.

I’m glad we’re having this discussion

Hi Steve,

From the perspective of a devout Catholic I understand where you’re coming from, but with all due respect (and please take this as charitably as possible), I think you’re being a bit unfair as it almost sounds like you are making a judgment on who does and doesn’t love Jesus. I don’t believe that is your intention though so let me please explain.

It seems as if you are assuming the culpability of the “Rejecter” and not taking into consideration the level of “ignorance” they may have when they reject any Catholic teaching including the Eucharist. Unless the Rejecter is doing so with adequate knowledge and deliberate consent their rejection would not be considered a mortal sin. This would include baptized Catholics, through absent or faulty catechesis, who leave the Church. It is up to God to judge a person’s culpability and not man.

And this is why I said that the Church was culpable, but I should have explained myself better. In this case I define the Church as both Church leaders and laypeople. We are all responsible to adequately and effectively evangelize and catechize…those Catholics who are active in the parish, non-active, fallen-away, and non-Catholics. We can do this through our words and actions both within church “programs” as well as how we live out our life.

Yes, there is much Catholic data out there as you pointed out, but in fairness there is a ton of anti-Catholic material out there as well. It can be very confusing. Many can’t decipher what is truth and what is false. Just like the Ethiopian on the desert road that Phillip helped to understand a bible passage referring to Jesus, we must assist those who don’t understand the Church’s teachings or who have been misled. I believe that is one of the key missions of all Catholics.

I love your passion and conviction and I hope you take what I wrote in the spirit of two devout Catholics trying to both grow in our faith. And likewise, I’m glad we’re having this discussion.

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

I originally came from a working class to middle class area. I guarantee you that many of the people coming to church on Sunday would not know what exactly you meant by “infallibility” or “Mary doctrine”. As far as what they didn’t believe in, this is not always something that people want to share on a questionnaire, and those that do make a statement are likely to say things like “I disagree with the Pope’s position on climate change/ birth control/ gays etc.” in other words something political that I’m not sure you could address. You obviously cannot give a parish-sponsored program critical of the official church teachings, and a program trying to explain or defend the church position on controversies is likely to fall on deaf ears for those who have already decided they don’t agree.

I see your point about many not knowing their faith, but that is my point as well…the need to find ways to help people to know their faith. If we don’t have the ability to understand where people are in their faith and their knowledge level then I guess we just need to provide varying depth and methods of teaching our faith…both doctrine topics as well as social teachings, which today seem some of the most controversial.

People get engaged with their faith when there are activities offered that they enjoy and that make them feel good. If they happen to learn a little something along the way, so much the better. I would be careful about too much “challenging” or “defending” until you get people engaged. I would say get their hearts first and then their minds follow, not the other way around.

To me, what I meant by “the heart” is getting people to love Jesus and their faith. Something deeper than making them feel good. It is one thing to intellectually understand the faith, but another to fall in love. Where I was going with leading with the mind is similar to falling in love with someone. You first have to get to know that person before you fall in love (although “love at first sight” is possible!). The mind before the heart. Maybe instead of challenging or defending I’m more thinking along the lines of just simply being properly and adequately educated…and do it in a way that is not boring! A lot to ask, but what is needed…

Thanks for the dialogue.

-Ernie-