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Ernie07
Guest
That is exactly what I’m looking for!! And there have been many great ideas shared so far! Thanks to all!
-Ernie-
- Status
-Ernie-
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Ernie07
Guest
Through interactive dialogue on this thread the topic has morphed a bit to expand beyond my original intent which was:
I hear people describe the Mass as boring, not relevant, uninspiring…that many get nothing out of it and go out of obligation if at all. I’ve also heard many talk about the Church in less than glowing terms. So I have two questions:
- If you get little to nothing out of Mass why do you think that is?
- What do you think needs to be done to inspire a greater love of the Mass and the Catholic Church?
“Meaningful” to me was related to the above. As I responded to some on this thread I began to coalesce my thoughts around what it would take to be a passionate Catholic and to me it’s very hard to be that if you don’t even know what you’re passionate about…hence the need to be educated (so as to be able to defend against those that would question your beliefs). But, education is not enough as love is an absolutely vital step. First is to know and then next is to love. “Meaningful” needs to encompass both education and love…at least that’s what I’m getting out of this thread.
Thanks.
-Ernie-
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hydin
Guest
Sorry for the delayed response.
I struggle with the issues you bring up as well. I am a firm believer we do very little teaching without the Holy Spirit either guiding us or outright taking over. I pray often on the way to class something as simple as "OK Holy Spirit, help me to teach them what they need to hear and not what I need to tell them… "
I think the answers to the questions you raise are different depending on who you are in a discussion with. The hardest thing to do is to step back and let them teach themselves. If they are hurting in a area where their personal situation runs up against Church teaching, instead of confronting them (this is hard to do… very hard) with the direct reasons, ask them for more… “I can see that really bothers you, tell me more about that? You honor their opinion without agreeing. " I can see how you feel that way”…This lets you get beside them and walk with them rather than talk at them. Then expand the teaching from their specific situation.
One example is dealing with same sex attraction… when you pull back the Church treats teens, divorced, and those never married exactly the same as those with same sex attraction… you can’t have sex outside of marriage… When you show the teaching is consistent… then it loses its unfairness. Each group has urges that they battle. . A divorced man and a man with same sex attraction have almost identical sacrifices to make. Both may love but can’t act on that love…and remain Catholic. (even when the Pope confuses us… but even Pope Francis says no teaching has changed…) You can disagree with the Church and its teaching but you can’t say it is not consistent.
I think one of the best ways to teach about the Eucharist is to explain how we came to appreciate it ourselves “I never knew that…” ( statements showing we learned…).
For me it was John 6. slowly. With realism. Highlighting the details the readings at Mass can’t include. Jesus didn’t just politely turn to the Apostles. He was watching the people walk away… dismissing all he has taught them. Those who turned away at the end were not at their first talk. They had given up their lives to follow him from town to town… Jesus was counting on them…Disciples… not the crowd.
Read it watching for who He is speaking of… first = "22 the crowd 41 Then the Jews - only the Jews… the teaching violated their law…52 The Jews - again… directly confront Jesus… in their house of worship… 59 He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum. Jesus then brings it to a critical point… 60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” 61 But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you? (a FEELING like we give so much value to today- He dismisses their feeling… paying it no mind, giving it no value. Satan gives feelings value higher than truth…not God.)
I can’t imagine he was not disappointed and upset. He had 2 years invested in this smaller group. They didn’t get it. They had heard all they needed to to understand but relied on their personal opinions and old beliefs rather than trusting fully his words… no trust, no obedience.(like today?) I can see Jesus with a red face and wide eyes in full humanity… holding back on what He really wanted to say…(many miss this building of Jesus’ expectations of His audience in John 6 because of their relationship to Him…He gets tougher and tougher because they should know.better, they choose not to. There is no “wait guys… let me explain it differently.” Jesus must have been thinking… You have seen the miracles, heard me speak, seen the dead rise and now you don’t think I am serious? That I can’t make myself into what I say I can to remain with you?
If it were a symbol here is where a loving and merciful Jesus would have stepped back and explained again, so they got it… He did not do that… what does He do?
66 Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him. 67 So Jesus asked the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” Now I do not see a Jesus that is gentle and kind… I see a Jesus who is all business… it is time for the Truth… deal with it
I imagine the money changer Jesus… turning to those closest to Him… the ones He loves the most… and asks… ARE YOU LEAVING TOO… ARE YOU… ARE YOU GOING TO LEAVE ME TOO… silence… He looks at them, each of them …in the eye… no smile, no hand on the shoulder… time for TRUTH… silence… then Peter…speaks… In John Jesus does not praise Peter or say his words were not his own… in John he speaks immediately of a devil in his midst… Now read Chapter 7… it is so different…once you experience the fullness of John’s Chapter 6 noticing the audience shift and the words intensify…
Show them that.
At that moment Jesus did not go after those who had invested 2 years with Him. He let them leave. symbol? If it is just a symbol how mean Jesus would have been to have just let them go… to not explain Himself…
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hydin
Guest
Hit word limit, which is probably a good thing…
I also suggest a very small book whose title is true… Jesus Shock by Peter Kreeft… or anything by him… easy to read and understand for anyone no matter their knowledge of the Faith (I know that by experience…). free plus 5.95 shipping here… cart.dynamiccatholic.com/Free-Jesus-Shock-p/1js-sc.htm
I also absolutely adore how Father John Riccardo teaches the Faith… so real… first is in a field talking to youth… short…Fr. John Riccardo - How Do You Explain the Eucharist? (so you can google it if uncomfortable with link) youtube.comwatch?v=V693Ve8xtoE
PASSOVER… eat the lamb… standing up ready to flee…or die. + Manna… what is it…
RCIA Week 17: The Eucharist
youtube.com/watch?v=hok6cQ3sDxs
Father Larry Richards (for guys… pretty hard core… Not a wimpy Priest…)
The Mass Explained - Fr Larry Richards
youtube.com/watch?v=PPvx2lPsOxY
May God Bless you and please know your search for truth and question published here has benefited more than you will ever know…maybe even saved some… God works like that…if we let Him…
I also suggest a very small book whose title is true… Jesus Shock by Peter Kreeft… or anything by him… easy to read and understand for anyone no matter their knowledge of the Faith (I know that by experience…). free plus 5.95 shipping here… cart.dynamiccatholic.com/Free-Jesus-Shock-p/1js-sc.htm
I also absolutely adore how Father John Riccardo teaches the Faith… so real… first is in a field talking to youth… short…Fr. John Riccardo - How Do You Explain the Eucharist? (so you can google it if uncomfortable with link) youtube.comwatch?v=V693Ve8xtoE
PASSOVER… eat the lamb… standing up ready to flee…or die. + Manna… what is it…
RCIA Week 17: The Eucharist
youtube.com/watch?v=hok6cQ3sDxs
Father Larry Richards (for guys… pretty hard core… Not a wimpy Priest…)
The Mass Explained - Fr Larry Richards
youtube.com/watch?v=PPvx2lPsOxY
May God Bless you and please know your search for truth and question published here has benefited more than you will ever know…maybe even saved some… God works like that…if we let Him…
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Ernie07
Guest
Hi Hydrin,
If “on the way to class” means you are a student then I am humbled by your faith at such a young age!! May God continue to bless you on your faith journey! As for what you said you inspired me to think of John 6 in a different way. I never really thought of Jesus as being fired up as I call it, but your point of view makes a lot of sense. I even searched for videos on Youtube of The Bread of Life Discourse and to see that scene interpreted in the manner in which you tell it is quite impactful.
I have spoken to a few of my Protestant friends about John 6 and what seems to trouble them the most is the Consecration. They keep asking me to show them where in the Bible does a priest perform the Consecration. It is man-made they say. It is the actions of the Church that they can’t get over…and I believe this stems from their overall rejection of the authority of the Church. I wonder if that’s what some Catholics feel like when they profess belief that the Eucharist is just a symbol…is it a symptom of an overall lack of trust in the authority of the Church? Protestantism creeping into their beliefs in the form of cafeteria-style Catholicism.
Another thing I got out of your response is that in order to get our faithful to be more passionate about their faith we’ll need to come at this from different angles and points of view. What may be impactful for one person may not have any impact on another. Even when we “educate” we’ll need to use words, pictures, videos…Bible interpretations, Church history, stories from other Catholics, etc.
Thank you again for your very insightful post!
-Ernie-
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reggieM
Guest
Those are good points but I don’t think you’re saying that we shouldn’t seek to help people understand the faith better. It really is knowledge about God that is essential. Yes, that is not a substitute for “knowing God” - and relating to Him personally through prayer. But we also have a big need to know the Faith for what it is.
I will agree that many who were born into the faith gained very little knowledge over the years. Some don’t really know what the Mass is, or why they should be Catholic and not some other religion.
Social justice activities are very important also, as you have said. Yes.
The only thing I’d disagree with you on is that the requirements of knowledge for becoming a Catholic are “onerous”.
I guess it depends on who we are talking about, but if it’s anyone ages 16 to 40, I think a majority of them are virtually obsessed with information-gathering through internet, social media and education in every field of study.
The fact that the same, well-educated people, are totally ignorant of their Catholic Faith tells me, not that it is an onerous burden, but that they - and nobody else – really cares that much about such things.
There is a big substitute of “doing” rather than “knowing” - and I can understand that to some degree. Certainly, it is better to show love to others and imitate Jesus, than to know details about the nature and procession of the Persons of the Trinity and lack such things.
But it’s a balance.
In my view, the balance is tipped too far in the direction of emotional connection or pleasing religious experience (as good as those things are) and not enough in what the content of what we believe is.
Dry intellectual studies are not what I would suggest either.
I think knowledge of the Faith is an exciting and extremely practical and valuable thing for everyone to have.
Knowledge of God is essential also - knowing who God is, who Jesus is, is important. Knowing God’s powers, His creation, His love – this helps us also against the growth of unbelief in our society.
In any case, I agree with you and support your views - I’m just offering an alternative from the perspective in my own diocese and parish that may be quite different than yours so I understand that.
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reggieM
Guest
We have spread around free copies of Matthew Kelly’s books on how to revitalize the parish also. He makes those available freely. The problem here is that most people don’t read Catholic books anyway.
The Lighthouse Catholic media CDs are possibly a good alternative - for people to listen to CDs which they can pick up inexpensively. I would suggest that the parish make those available for Free.
We also offer Movie Nights - with a Catholic movie and a get together in the parish. People really like those events. We make them dramatic, fun and interesting movies (Ignatius Press has several) - not just a person talking about the catechism.
The Lighthouse Catholic media CDs are possibly a good alternative - for people to listen to CDs which they can pick up inexpensively. I would suggest that the parish make those available for Free.
We also offer Movie Nights - with a Catholic movie and a get together in the parish. People really like those events. We make them dramatic, fun and interesting movies (Ignatius Press has several) - not just a person talking about the catechism.
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Ernie07
Guest
Similarly, word limit caught up with me as well on my previous post! To add to the different points of view thought, the main reason in starting this thread was to get me out of my own line of thinking and learn from others. For instance, in my faith journey the truth was (and still is) supremely important. My feelings were secondary and I tend to get frustrated when that is not the case for others.
But, to be effective we must have different methods of evangelization to account for the differences in people and the different paths to their heart. The method that worked for me may not work on someone else.
I’ll check out the books and videos you recommend. I’ve read a few books from Peter Kreeft (“Yes or No” and “Angels and Demons”)…what a devout Catholic! I’m also intrigued by the Father Richards sermon as he seems like he’d be my kind of guy!!
Thanks again!
-Ernie-
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Usige
Guest
I was reading the Bread of Life Discourse in the adoration chapel in the wee hours this morning and it got me thinking about this thread.
In particular I kept reading John 6:60-61,63-64,66 over and over:
As Catholics, we often think of this in terms of the Eucharist and those who reject the teaching on the True Presence in the Eucharist. That is certainly part of it, but I think it goes even deeper than that.
If we look to the beginning of John we see where the evangelist declares “And the Word became flesh”. To eat the flesh is to consume God’s Holy Word. Note that it is the singular, Word, and not the plural, Words. It means that we cannot divide Christ into those things we like or dislike, but we either accept everything or we “no longer walk with him”. I think many people reject parts of Church teaching because it offends them; they heard too many “hard sayings”.
Some might say, “so what? Catholics are misinterpreting Christ’s words.” For this discussion I think verse 63 and 64 are the key. These verses really talk about faith and faith requires us to open ourselves to the Holy Spirit and set aside our physical senses. Many of his disciples followed him all over Galilee. They had just seen him feed 5000 with a couple fish and 5 loaves of bread and followed him across the Sea of Galilee. While Christ spoke truth he also challenged their faith. Only a short time before they were calling him a prophet and yet they simply walked away after he said that he was the bread of eternal life. They trusted their eyes, but many had no faith in what he very clearly said.
This made me think back to Luke 17:5-10 where the apostles ask Christ to increase their faith and he says that if they had faith as small as a mustard seed they could command a tree to move, but if we simply act (or believe) by command then our Master will not thank us for doing what we were told. I also recalled Matthew walking on water until his faith failed him and he sank.
Long and short is that it all comes down to Faith. Faith is a gift from God and we cannot instill it in others. As one of my formators said we also cannot study our way to Faith since Faith is a precursor to understanding. At best we can nurture a burgeoning faith. One things that might help people is a discussion on discernment of disquieted thoughts. A quote from St Francis de Sales pops to mind:
Along with that I think we need to teach people to pray. And by prayer I mean enter into a deeper relationship with God and not simply memorize the prayers. I remember reading a statistic that said something like 1/3 of Catholics believe in an impersonal God. How can someone have a relationship with God if they don’t talk with him or want to know him?
One book that might help you is Sherry Weddel’s Forming Intentional Disciples. She also has a follow up called Becoming a Parish of Intentional Disciples. I don’t necessarily agree with everything she writes, but she does make a point that we need to go out to gather people in.
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reggieM
Guest
I have heard about that book also - haven’t read it but it is recommended often.
I mentioned Matthew Kelly - his books are very relevant to the OP.
There’s also a book called “Rebuilt” which is very popular and addresses the very same issues as the OP.
I read a little of that and didn’t agree with the point of view. I believe they’re looking at mega-church Evangelicals as the model for Catholic parishes of the future. I don’t think that’s the answer, myself.
One point the authors make though is one of the biggest obstacles to parish growth is what they consider “old people”.
That surprised me when I read it, but I had to admit it makes sense.
Some parishes are dominated by older generations who resist every kind of change. Many of that generation take leadership positions and never want to give them up - this can frustrate younger Catholics who need a change to serve in leadership themselves.
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Cyril_Of_Canada
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OP, does your parish encounter the Lord Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament outside of the Mass?
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steve_b
Guest
Hi Ernie,
It’s good we are having this discussion.
Re: ignorance,
I’ve pointed out in many posts, that ignorance isn’t always a valid argument. Not my words but from the Catechism
1791
“ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits”.
when it says often, that means often ignorance is NOT innocent. IOW, people are often culpable for what they do, and ignorance then isn’t innocent, therefore isn’t a defense…
Said another way,
Ignorance then, can’t be presumed to always be innocent. And only ignorance that is innocent, can reduce culpability.
So what we do here on CA is hopefully reducing ignorance that is out there… agreed?
Re: judging. Just to point this out
1 Cor 5:
“I wrote[f] to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality[g] or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. 12 What business is it of mine to judge κρίνειν; ] those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge κρίνετε; ] those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
Therefore, we ARE to make judgements on people’s actions inside the Church. Those who have been baptized Catholics
isn’t that part of my post #75 ? But notice, it was from quotes I used
Wasn’t that included in my post #75 ?
I agree.
Don’t worry.
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poche
Guest
Every first Friday we have Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament.
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hydin
Guest
Interesting take on John 1. = The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not **comprehend it.
John, different than the three other Gospel Writers was telling us - today- the people who would not know Christ or those who walked with him. John goes all the way back to the beginning, knowing how the other three gospels were received… and what gaps needed to be filled to get them to see Jesus and experience the Holy Spirit. John goes back to before Genesis and places Jesus there. as the one who was word - thought (logos in Greek can mean either) This part of John is really a hymn defining who Jesus was. that HE was God and existed always. He became flesh later…but He always existed. We must place ourselves in the context of the writing. John is bringing people from the Old Testament or those who were not Jews the link or full story of Gods work. Jesus did not just show up, like the Holy Spirit, He was always God the Trinity placed before the Old Testament. To show Jesus was not created just before he was born but was God. He was brought into the world just as the Old Testament predicted but he was not the savior they expected - the king who would save them AND bring them riches and status in the world… Instead, He brings us peace, comfort in our work, not happiness or wealth. peace to survive in Faith. It would not be fun but it would be worth it.
So before the Old Testament the “thought” or spirit existed. The Old Testament and New Testament can’t hold Him or explain Him. John also clearly states he did not write down everything Jesus said or did. If he had the world could not hold the books.
The Thought became flesh… rather than the words in the bible.Jesus never said write this down. He said Tell them… which is why in Mass we are told the word from the Bible, not just passages and a talk. Much of our Mass (which is the starting point, Mass = to be sent… Final Blessing is not think about it and how you relate to Jesus… it is get out of here and let others know what you know… you have me in you…You have shared in the Last Supper, like the Apostles, go…
Peter was the one who when his eyes were on Christ could walk on water but when he shifted his gaze to what he was doing himself… he sank… and yelled help me… Great story that lives in each of us… if we do his work and completely focus on Him we can do the impossible… when we stop and think about"Me" we fall, or grow silent or doubt.sinking into our humanity.**
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hydin
Guest
Hello Earnie, no I am not a student… I have taught 10th graders the Old and New Testament for 10 years… so yes I am a student I guess just a middle aged guy who is always learning and loves tough questions. I can’t quote one Bible verse by number but know where to look for answers. I have tested many of the teachings of the Church and NEVER come away with a doubt that we have the Truth. I am a firm believer if you do not doubt your faith and dig to test it you do not have Faith at all… you have Know… which will not hold up against our culture or in the teens case, College. I want to impart truth in a way that I have found it… building block by block from the beginning so when challenged the foundation is strong enough not to be shaken.
The Church Fathers are a wonderful source. John lived until say 90 ad. His students lived until 150 or later. They also taught… so students of the students of John lived past 200. What did they think? What was their worship like? Did they think the Eucharist was important? Check and see. Check protestant sources and Catholic sources. What did the Jews think? I think you will enjoy this… Now Bishop Barron is a wonderful teacher… There is a surprise at the end…
youtube.com/watch?v=NDVLBUK5FGw
or search for “Bishop Barron on the Mystery of Eating Jesus’ Flesh”
Some bow or close there eyes at the consecration… they fine that respectful… a few years ago I realized if Jesus was coming I was going to witness the miracle and not miss a second. He is coming for us, for me, I want to see Him.
I love how you closed your comments… you have found what I see as a very important nugget of sharing out Faith. If we approach others facing them many will resist. If we instead invite them in to our Faith… If we symbolically throw our arm around their shoulder and really share… the Holy Spirit will do the rest… let what we share be what He knows they need to hear… not what we need to tell them. Questions are wonderful… drawing out what they believe and why before we teach at all. Not to allow them to remain in doubt but to find what they are seeking. Personally when I realized what a horrible man King David was… I felt hope. I got a shot at Heaven… if he, a person who has a book in the Bible that was written simply to take out the unfavorable parts of his real life shown in earlier books. It is taking a current roadblock - same sex attraction… How horrible Catholics are… Boo Catholics… until they see that a 24 year old same sex attracted man is treated no differently than a 24 year old heterosexual is treated… or any high school student… or 50 year old divorced woman or man… the exact same… No sex outside of marriage… does a 50 year old man who is divorced not have urges to have sex? They realize the teaching is universal, you may not agree but that does not make it unfair to one of the people above… if it is not unfair for all of them. You have asked many questions and the Holy Spirit has placed certain people’s (name removed by moderator)ut here. None of this would have taken place if you had not been moved to ask… Now you have other things to share… Steal the best from each and I think you will find they are exactly what you were seeking. Remember, it is not up to you to convince them, That is the job of the Holy Spirit. He may use you or someone else… simply share and let Him work. You will never know the influence you have had already by starting this topic… the Holy Spitit works that way… if we let him.
God Bless you, you are doing His work.
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Rosebud77
Guest
- Status