looking for non-Catholic opinion

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These issues are debated among Catholics so I thought I’d get the opinon of some non-Catholics (Protestant, Jew, Hindu, Wiccan…I don’t care, just as long as you’re not Catholic and fervent in your own religion). What do you think of:

The prayer meeting of Assisi?

The changes in the Mass?
The priest facing the people?
The reception of Communion from the Cup?
The use of EOMHCs?
The vernacular?
Communion in the hand?

The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?
The traditional movement in general?

The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?

The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?
 
the_Gaudess said:
These issues are debated among Catholics so I thought I’d get the opinon of some non-Catholics (Protestant, Jew, Hindu, Wiccan…I don’t care, just as long as you’re not Catholic and fervent in your own religion). What do you think of:

The prayer meeting of Assisi?
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Not familiar with the prayer meeting of Assisi.

The changes in the Mass?

Certain rubrics being added back into it are positive. The addition of Latin is not something I would agree with it since it obscures what the priest is saying during consecration.

The priest facing the people?

The traditional liturgy has always called for the priest to face the altar except during the sermon and when he must do so. The Lutheran liturgy also has the pastor facing the altar.

The reception of Communion from the Cup?

A common cup is always best; the cup must not be withheld from the people.

The use of EOMHCs?

Not sure what that acrostic means.

The vernacular?

Vernacular is always best. The gospel must be proclaimed clearly.

Communion in the hand?

This seems to have been the practice of the early Church. Either is fine.

The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?

The Church has every right to discipline its own members.

The traditional movement in general?

Restoring the traditional liturgy is always positive. Hyper-ritualization simply for its own sake is never good.

The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?

For the sake of not offending Catholics on the board I won’t voice what I think of an action like that 😃

The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?

It is false. We do not. The Christian God is the Triune God; the God worshipped by Jews and Muslims is not the Triune God; therefore it’s not the same God. Christ the Son of God became man; Jews and Muslims do not worship Christ, so again, the view that it is the same God is false.
 
the Gaudess;:
The prayer meeting of Assisi?
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Archbishop Lefebvre was too sympathetic to John Paul II in 1986.
The changes in the Mass?
…
The vernacular?
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Had the only change that was made from the pre-Vatican 2 Mass was a direct translation from Latin to the common language of the congregation at a specific mass, I think it would have retained its sacredness.
The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?
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A mistake. A very big mistake, but nonetheless and understandable one.
The traditional movement in general?
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From the perspective of Traditional Catholics, Vatican II created a Duumvirate, abolishing Sacred Tradition and consequently the Triumvirate that is the foundation of the Catholic Faith.

For traditional Catholics, Vatican II restricted their practice of the Catholic Faith, but did not change the Triumvirate.

In both instances they pose the same challenge to the Holy See: What is the scriptural foundation of the changes that the Church is making, especially since those changes conflict with both Canon Law, and Sacred Tradition?
The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?
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For different reasons, both Jews and Christians want the Messiah to come soon. As such, it is an appropriate prayer.
The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?
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Since the Goddesses that the Q’ran mandates be worshiped are not part of either the Christian Trinity, nor the Jewish G-D, to claim that the three worship the same is to reject either the deities that Islam worships, or elevate non-Christian deities to godhood.

xan

jonathon
 
the_Gaudess said:
These issues are debated among Catholics so I thought I’d get the opinon of some non-Catholics (Protestant, Jew, Hindu, Wiccan…I don’t care, just as long as you’re not Catholic and fervent in your own religion). What do you think of:

The prayer meeting of Assisi?

The changes in the Mass?
The priest facing the people?
The reception of Communion from the Cup?
The use of EOMHCs?
The vernacular?
Communion in the hand?

The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?
The traditional movement in general?

The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?

The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?
Click to expand...
I think that according to your own theology, the Church has the power to make any changes it sees fit in its practices, and to determine who is in and who is out through excommunication. And if the Pope is the spiritual head, I guess you should trust his judgement on spiritual issues.

I don’t think my personal opinion on any of these issues, or how sensical or not I think they are amount to a hill of beans, as it’s none of my business to tell your church how they should order themselves or conduct their worship. That is entirely between your God and his people.

On whether or not Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the same god…if so, he presents himself rather differently to the various groups and has different expectations for each of them. Which is NOT consistent with Catholicism or Islam, and I don’t know enough about Judaism to know if it is consistent with their teachings and covenants or not.

Seems that a god could certainly cut any deals or covenants it chooses with various groups of people at various times without having to make explanations to anyone.

I don’t think a god has to answer to humans about anything, or make sense, or fit humanities ideas about right/wrong, just/unjust, etc. So it doesn’t really bother me that some theology doesn’t match reason, because a god doesn’t need to meet human reason.

Too many people judge the Divine according to human standards and that has never made sense to me.
 
the_Gaudess said:
These issues are debated among Catholics so I thought I’d get the opinon of some non-Catholics (Protestant, Jew, Hindu, Wiccan…I don’t care, just as long as you’re not Catholic and fervent in your own religion). What do you think of:

The prayer meeting of Assisi?

The changes in the Mass?
The priest facing the people?
The reception of Communion from the Cup?
The use of EOMHCs?
The vernacular?
Communion in the hand?

The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?
The traditional movement in general?

The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?

The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?
Click to expand...
Most non-Catholics probably don’t think much or care much about these issues, since they do not affect them.

I do have strong views on most of what you listed, but only because half my family is Catholic, and many of them belong to the SSPX and attend their Masses. I am also old enough to remember when “the changes” took place in your church in the 1970s, and I remember how devastated many members of my mother’s family were by it.

So I guess you know what my answer would be to almost every one of your questions…except for the Assisi one (I vote yes on that), and the one about the Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in a synagogue (I have no problem with that, as a religious Jew…both Jews and Christians pray for the coming of the Messiah…Christians pray for a 2nd coming, we Jews pray for the 1st!)

One thing I do want to point out about one of the changes in the Mass: the traditional Mass had both the priest and the people facing the same direction: the altar. Now, the priest faces the people.

It was always my understanding that the Catholic Mass is supposed to resemble the Jewish sacrificial offering in the Temple. If this is so, then the traditional position makes more sense, since in the Temple, BOTH the priest and the people faced the same way: the altar. The way you guys do it now, its more like a Protestant communion meal.

Also, the words of consecration were changed: in the traditional form, it was “pro vobis et pro multis”, which means, “for you and for MANY”. Now it is, “pro vobis et pro omnis”, which means, “for you and for ALL”. Might not seem like much of a difference, but it IS a change in theology. I was always under the impression that Catholicism teaches that Jesus died for all, but not all would benefit (since not all will be “saved”.)
 
***Repsonding only to those I am familiar with: ***
the_Gaudess said:
These issues are debated among Catholics so I thought I’d get the opinon of some non-Catholics (Protestant, Jew, Hindu, Wiccan…I don’t care, just as long as you’re not Catholic and fervent in your own religion). What do you think of:

The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?

***Not a problem - assuming the Pope was praying for the return of the Messiah while the Jews are praying for his first arrival and I don’t think there was any misunderstanding or errant assumption that the Pope was praying for anything different than Christ’s return! No issue with praying in a synogogue - God is everywhere 🙂 ***
The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?
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This correct only in part - they each claim to be praying to Yahweh (the Father). In fact, Jews and Christians do pray to the same God, but the God protrayed in the Koran is very different in character than the God of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures.
 
The prayer meeting of Assisi?

It was good (that was where the Pope reverenced the Koran, correct?) I think it was a step in the right direction.

** The changes in the Mass?**

Do you mean the Vatican II changes? Or the more recent proposed changes. I think the VII changes were good. The new changes, less so.

** The priest facing the people?**

Don’t care.

The reception of Communion from the Cup?

It’s supposed to be a meal, right?

** The use of EOMHCs?**

Don’t care.

** The vernacular?**

Why give a service in a language no one understands?

** Communion in the hand?**

Don’t care.

** The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?**

The followers of one sect telling one of their own that he’s wrong and kicking him to the curb? Typical Christianity to me.

** The traditional movement in general?**

People are afraid of change.

** The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?**

Don’t care.

** The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?**

It’s true.
 
I’m a former Catholic, now a Bahá’í.

**What do you think of:

The prayer meeting of Assisi?**No idea.

**The changes in the Mass?
The priest facing the people?
The reception of Communion from the Cup?
The use of EOMHCs?
The vernacular?
Communion in the hand?**From a Catholic perspective, all of these changes were unnecessary, and silly. They water the Mass down. I like the old phrase, “If I wanted to be entertained I’d watch TV… if I wanted to pray, I’d go to church.”

**The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?**Does not matter to me.
**The traditional movement in general?**I don’t like their hard-line view on salvation, their opposition to ecumenism, and the exclusivity of the Truth if that makes sense. I like what Vatican II has to say about ecumenism, the Church’s relationship to other religions, and its promotion of religious freedom.

**The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?**That’s just silly. The Pope believes the Jesus is the Messiah (which he is), so why would he pretend that he isn’t?

The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?:extrahappy: I think it’s a great thing. All they need to do now is add Zoroastrians, Buddhists, and Hindus to that list.
 
I forgot to respond to the question which said that Jews, Christians and Muslims pray to the same God.

This one is problematic; it depends on which form of Judaism you ask, and which rabbinic authority you ask.

I would guess that most members/rabbis in liberal forms of Judaism would have a very ecumenical approach, and say that we all worship the same God.

I once had this same question, and so, I asked a Chasidic rabbi. He told me that Jews and Muslims do both worship the same God, but that the more traditional view is that Jews and Christians do not, because of the trinitarian belief Christians have.

Rabbenu Tam (medieval Europe; France) held that Jews and Christians do worship the same God; however, some scholars feel he held this view due to the persecution Jews suffered in medieval Europe, and it was possibly his way of “keeping the peace” for the Jewish community there, at that time.

Maimonides held that Jews and Christians do not worship the same God, but that Jews and Muslims do (comparable to the view of the Chasidic rabbi I consulted.) However, Maimonides lived in Muslim Spain, so there too, his view may have been colored by the fact that he and the other Spanish Jews were living in a Muslim country.

So, those are the two views held in Judaism, from the most liberal to the most conservative, and Jews can go with whatever view they feel is right.
 
The prayer meeting of Assisi?

Two hippies are walking down the road and see a catholic priest with a broken arm. So, they ask the priest, “hey man, how you break your arm?” The priest says that she slipped and fell in a bathtub. The two hippies continue walking down the road. One hippie turns to the other and says, “hey man, what’s a bathtub?” The other responds, “Man, I have no idea, It must be a Catholic thing”.

Just like those Hippies, we have no clue what you are asking about.

The changes in the Mass?

Paul clearly says, it is better to say five words in the native language, then five thousand in a language that is not clearly understood. So, dumping the Latin Mass is the best thing you could have done.

The priest facing the people?

In my opinion that does not go far enough, the Priest should come down to our level and walk among us.

The reception of Communion from the Cup?

I once visited an Epistipal Church, and was not aware that I was expected to put my hand up to stop the cup from pouring more wine down my mouth and thus got drunk. I don’t think it is a good idea because it does not effectively do “portion control” for newbies.

The use of EOMHCs?

You are not speaking English to me, nor Greek, nor Hebrew, nor even Yiddish.

The vernacular?

What does what a door is covered with have to do with anything?

Communion in the hand?

Same as cup above.

The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?

I guess it would depend on his attitude in disagring with church authority. If he was obsenent, good bye and good ridence.

The traditional movement in general?

The fear that the Catholic church would go back to Latin is a serious stumbling block to me.

The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?

No clue what you speak of.

The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?

Study the koran, the attributes of Allah are contray to the God of the Bible. Frankly, I find the part in CC about Muslims being fellow travelers a major turn off. Face it, Muhammad is in Hell and his teachings are sending all Muslims to Hell.

:rolleyes:
 
Hi,

I would like to say right on to Sepharad.

I would like to quote him here: (Most non-Catholics probably don’t think much or care much about these issues, since they do not affect them.

I do have strong views on most of what you listed, but only because half my family is Catholic, and many of them belong to the SSPX and attend their Masses. I am also old enough to remember when “the changes” took place in your church in the 1970s, and I remember how devastated many members of my mother’s family were by it.)

I’m also old enough to remember when the changes that were made. I felt that it was the root of the problem in the Roman Church right now.

Have a good day.

Frank J
 
The prayer meeting of Assisi?
I am with Danial on this one…😉

The priest facing the people?
It would be odd for me if the priest did not face me during the Eucharist prayers.

The reception of Communion from the Cup?
We receive the cup of salvation at each of our services. This is normal for me. It was very odd for me to attend my children’s Catholic School’s Mass and not see the cup offered.

The use of EOMHCs?
I am clueless to what this is.

The vernacular?
Our children do attend a Catholic school, and I would hope that Latin is not brought back into the Mass. Latin in school–fantastic, but Latin in church not my cup of tea.

Communion in the hand? This is the way that I receive the host while kneeling at the alter.

The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre? ??

The traditional movement in general?
I think that it actually is a step in the wrong direction.

The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?
Is this a mixed message from the Pope?
 
Alright I just figured out what EMOHCs were-- Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. I have no problem with this at all.

Qualifications for EMOHCs:

Lives a Christian life rooted in faith, hope and love

Deeply appreciates the Eucharist and celebrates the sacrament regularly and reverently

An example of Christian discipleship in the Parish

If married: validly married in accordance with Catholic Church law

Age 18 or older and having received the Sacrament of Confirmation. Age 16-17 with the approval of Robert Rivers in the Parish Office
sjnlilburn.com/ministries/eucharistic-ministers
 
Thanks for letting me know what EMOHC is, now what does that mean exactly? (I was wondering on both accounts!)
 
the_Gaudess said:
These issues are debated among Catholics so I thought I’d get the opinon of some non-Catholics (Protestant, Jew, Hindu, Wiccan…I don’t care, just as long as you’re not Catholic and fervent in your own religion). What do you think of:

The prayer meeting of Assisi?

Not familiar with this meeting.

The changes in the Mass?

The priest facing the people?

It certainly makes it easier to see what is going on. Those masses I have attended I have enjoyed viewing the priest as he does his work.

The reception of Communion from the Cup?

As in those Protestant traditions, I do not see anything wrong with it…for ALL to take from the same cup in the same way seems “correct” to me.

The use of EOMHCs?

Great idea. Participation in the mass by “lay people” should be the norm.
The vernacular?

To hear the message in one’s own language seems to reflect Pentacost more accurately than listening to a language one doesn’t speak or understand.

Communion in the hand?

I think that is fine.

The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?

If he went against the leadership of the church and it’s beliefs…I don’t see what recourse it had.

The traditional movement in general?

Not sure what the issue is…either the church is led by the Pope and bishops or it’s not…if it is and they chose to make changes…the traditionalists don’t have much of a stance…

The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the
synogogue?

If it offended, it wasn’t a good idea…he was a visitor.

The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?
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Agree whole heartedly.
 
Sepharad said:
Thanks for letting me know what EMOHC is, now what does that mean exactly? (I was wondering on both accounts!)
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I am sure that someone on the board will tell me that I am wrong if I give you the wrong information…😉

An EMOHC is a “normal” person(not an ordained person like a priest or deacon) that is able to give out communion during Mass when the priest needs help. My understanding also is that the EMOHC will also bring communion to the shut-ins and nursing homes–stuff like that.

Peace!
 
emeraldcoast said:
I am sure that someone on the board will tell me that I am wrong if I give you the wrong information…😉

An EMOHC is a “normal” person(not an ordained person like a priest or deacon) that is able to give out communion during Mass when the priest needs help. My understanding also is that the EMOHC will also bring communion to the shut-ins and nursing homes–stuff like that.

Peace!
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Thanks! Wow, it shows you how out of things I was…I didn’t even know the “regular” CC lets people who are not priests give out communion! The only Catholic masses I’ve ever been to (1970s) were Tridentine ones, and only the priest does it there.
 
Sepharad said:
Thanks! Wow, it shows you how out of things I was…I didn’t even know the “regular” CC lets people who are not priests give out communion! The only Catholic masses I’ve ever been to (1970s) were Tridentine ones, and only the priest does it there.
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Where are the Catholics when we need them to give us the straight scoop!!😉
 
the_Gaudess said:
These issues are debated among Catholics so I thought I’d get the opinon of some non-Catholics (Protestant, Jew, Hindu, Wiccan…I don’t care, just as long as you’re not Catholic and fervent in your own religion). What do you think of:

The prayer meeting of Assisi?

The changes in the Mass?
The priest facing the people?
The reception of Communion from the Cup?
The use of EOMHCs?
The vernacular?
Communion in the hand?

The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?
The traditional movement in general?

The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?

The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?
Click to expand...
What difference would all this make to non-catholics, seems to me your just trying to stir up trouble where there is none. Guaranteed, the Pope did NOT pray for the coming of the Messiah, you got to be kidding. Such nonsense isn’t worth the time of day.
 
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