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Sepharad
Guest
Well, if they ever do that, Frank can always switch to the ROCA/ROCOR, which is the most conservative of the EO, and they even adhere to the Julian calendar (they’re called ‘Old Calendarists’ for this reason.)
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uglygal
Guest
Lie, deceptive and scandalous to the ‘faithful’. I personally know of a person who left catholicism for Islam under the false pretension ‘its the same god’
that’s my opinion
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AnAtheist
Guest
No opinion at all, your business.
Doesn’t Messiah = Jesus from a Christian viewpoint? Or did he pray in a synogogue that Jews should accept Jesus as their Messiah?
So it is either neglecting his own faith or insulting his hosts. Sounds weird to me.
Wrong. The usual argument is, that only the view on that one god is different, but to me it is so much different, that it is fair to speak of different gods.
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rossum
Guest
I have no problem with Buddhist monks, nuns and laypeople chanting or meditating with members of other religions.
These are internal matters for the Catholic Church, I have no opinion.
As long as the owners of the synagogue did not object then this is fine.
From an outside perspective it is obvious that all three Abrahamic religions worship the same God. I have no problem with this.
rossum
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Memaw
Guest
Yes and that “same” GOD founded a Church, the Catholic Church, and it’s HIS prayer that ALL be one in HIM. HIS Church is for every human being on the face of this earth. It is NOT Our Lord’s desire to have all this division. If those who claim they go by the Bible, would just read the bible in the truth and stop twisting scripture to say what they want it to say, maybe we could start working in the right direction towards Our Lord’s prayer. Unity!!! True Unity.
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jblake
Guest
rossum;:
xan
jonathon
Since when have either Christians or Jews worshiped one Goddess, much less three — Allat, Uzza, and Manah? The trilogy of Goddesses that the Q’ran mandates be worshiped, by all true adherents of Islam.
xan
jonathon
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elvisman
Guest
You’re a very, very angry person. Lefebvre was excommunicated because he disobeyed the Holy Father and violated his vows by ordaining bishops without permission.
**The only true view is that the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church established by Jesus Christ. I realize that you reject the leadership of the Pope (ALSO established by Jesus) and that may be the source of your anger. **
**Remember what **Jesus told Saul (St. Paul):
"Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME.
I am Jesus whom you are persecuting." (Acts 9:4-5)
Notice, Frank, that he didn’t say, “My Church”?? He said, “ME”.
Jesus and his Church CANNOT be separated - no matter how hard you and others like you try.
You can continue your inane and smug little rants but in the final analysis, it’s you who has rebelled against Jesus - not us.
Truly, the gates of hell will not prevail agaist his holy Church.
**Oh - have a great day!
**
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jblake
Guest
elvisman;:
The “disobedience” was that Lefebre insisted on ordaining Traditional, Faithful Catholics to the post. The Pope was seeking a compromise with Marxist Liberation Theology, and Lefebre was caught in those crosshairs.
xan
jonathon
The Pope indicated his approval, prior to Lefebre performing the ordinations. Canon Law required Lefebre to perform those ordinations.
The “disobedience” was that Lefebre insisted on ordaining Traditional, Faithful Catholics to the post. The Pope was seeking a compromise with Marxist Liberation Theology, and Lefebre was caught in those crosshairs.
xan
jonathon
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elvisman
Guest
Wrong.
The schism occurred in 1988, because Lefebvre ordained four new bishops in his rebellious sect - without permission.
Canon law did not and would not require him to be disobedient to the Holy See.
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Sepharad
Guest
So then, why are Catholics who attend Mass and receive other sacraments at SSPX chapels NOT also excommunicated?
Any sacraments received at their chapels is deemed to be valid yet not licit, from what I understand.
Archbishop Lefebvre acted under a special circumstance of Canon Law which allowed him to act under extraordinary circumstances…in some ways he saw himself as being akin to the situation St Athanasius had, when the Arian heretics took the church over and expelled him. He even acted similarly to Archbishop Lefebvre in ordaining bishops when he was not “supposed” to, according to the vast majority of bishops of that time, who had been given over to Arianism:
dailycatholic.org/issue/2002Apr/apr1doc.htm
Do you see the parallels between the modern situation and what happened in the time of Athanasius?
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elvisman
Guest
The members of the order are ipso facto excommunicated. The reason that the sacraments are valid is because they possess valid Apostolic succession, unfortunately.
Churches that broke away - such as the Anglican church do not have valid apostolic succession because they abandoned the proper form of ordination.
Lefebvre had no valid reason go into schism because, unlike at the time of Athanasius, there was no heresy - merely his opinion.
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Sepharad
Guest
From the link I previously posted:
So great was the saint’s determination to uphold all Holy Mother Church taught that he actually converted many Arian back to the True Church. This only infuriated the Arian bishops more, for they had grown to universal proportions, denying the few orthodox prelates left to conduct Masses and the Sacraments in underground churches much as is the case today during the great Modernist heresy where so many in the post-conciliar church have bought into the heresies of ecumenism, humanism and religious liberty, causing great damage to the True Faith. No wonder Athanasius is the Patron Saint of Traditional Roman Catholics. Despite being exiled by Liberius - a saint, St. Athanasius realized not to ordain bishops would allow the True Faith to wain and possibly die out - so great was the Arian heresy. Thus, without permission of the Pope he, like Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, ordained bishops and priests to perpetuate the true Faith. Both Athanasius in the 5th century and Lefebvre in the 20th century did so because the Faith was in peril. Always that takes precedence over ecclesiastical protocol.
So great was the saint’s determination to uphold all Holy Mother Church taught that he actually converted many Arian back to the True Church. This only infuriated the Arian bishops more, for they had grown to universal proportions, denying the few orthodox prelates left to conduct Masses and the Sacraments in underground churches much as is the case today during the great Modernist heresy where so many in the post-conciliar church have bought into the heresies of ecumenism, humanism and religious liberty, causing great damage to the True Faith. No wonder Athanasius is the Patron Saint of Traditional Roman Catholics. Despite being exiled by Liberius - a saint, St. Athanasius realized not to ordain bishops would allow the True Faith to wain and possibly die out - so great was the Arian heresy. Thus, without permission of the Pope he, like Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, ordained bishops and priests to perpetuate the true Faith. Both Athanasius in the 5th century and Lefebvre in the 20th century did so because the Faith was in peril. Always that takes precedence over ecclesiastical protocol.
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Memaw
Guest
Don’t know where you got your information but your way off base with it.
As for your remark that the Poep was seeking a compromise with Marxist Liberation Theology is another falsehood someone has started. Pope John Paul II, (or any other Pope,) has never or never would compromise with Communists.
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Memaw
Guest
NO I do not, Athanasius was speaking for the Pope and the Church,. Lefebvre was going against the Pope and the Church. Big difference.
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Memaw
Guest
The Pope would never pray for the coming of the Messiah as the Jews understand it, but he may have been praying for the second coming of the Messiah which Catholics do all the time.No opinion at all, your business.
Doesn’t Messiah = Jesus from a Christian viewpoint? Or did he pray in a synogogue that Jews should accept Jesus as their Messiah?
So it is either neglecting his own faith or insulting his hosts. Sounds weird to me.
Wrong. The usual argument is, that only the view on that one god is different, but to me it is so much different, that it is fair to speak of different gods.
M
Memaw
Guest
AMEN!You’re a very, very angry person. Lefebvre was excommunicated because he disobeyed the Holy Father and violated his vows by ordaining bishops without permission.
The only true view is that the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church established by Jesus Christ. I realize that you reject the leadership of the Pope (ALSO established by Jesus) and that may be the source of your anger.
**Remember what **Jesus told Saul (St. Paul):
"Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME.
I am Jesus whom you are persecuting." (Acts 9:4-5)
Notice, Frank, that he didn’t say, “My Church”?? He said, “ME”.
Jesus and his Church CANNOT be separated - no matter how hard you and others like you try.
You can continue your inane and smug little rants but in the final analysis, it’s you who has rebelled against Jesus - not us.
Truly, the gates of hell will not prevail agaist his holy Church.
Oh - have a great day!
J
jblake
Guest
elvisman;:
At a minimum, the ordinations were done with the permission of the Pope. Permission that was subsequently withdrawn. Depending on who you believe, that permission was withdrawn just before, during, or after the ordinations began.
xan
jonathon
A very strong case can be made that the Pope ordered the ordinations.
At a minimum, the ordinations were done with the permission of the Pope. Permission that was subsequently withdrawn. Depending on who you believe, that permission was withdrawn just before, during, or after the ordinations began.
xan
jonathon
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qui_est_ce
Guest
This s not a Catholic Group
dailycatholic.org/grace.htm
"*** The mission of The Daily Catholic is to provide content in all phases of Catholic living so readers can KNOW THE FAITH in order to KEEP THE FAITH. The DAILY CATHOLIC is in full accordance with the Infallible and perennial Living Magisterium of the Church and obedient to the Primacy from Saint Peter through Pope Pius XII**. This publication is dedicated to the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts. You can be assured what you read in these pages is solid and trustworthy and in full accord with the Doctrines, Dogmas and Traditions of the One True Faith taught for 20 centuries. We reject Vatican II for it formed a separate church,*
Chana, you need to stay away from these nutty people. I promise you, the Novus Ordo is quite sacred and beautiful. Catholics can still attend a Tridentine Mass. There is one available in every diocese. Ours is in a beautiful old Cathedral, that has been renovated at great expense.
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Sepharad
Guest
Regardless of who runs that site, do you dispute the accuracy of the historical information they gave?
What do you think of these quotes?
“…that it is necessary to obey a Pope in all things as long as he does not go against the universal custom of the Church, but should he go against the universal customs of the Church, he need not be followed” -Pope Innocent III
“What if some novel contagion seek to infect the whole Church, and not merely a small portion of it? Then he will take care to cling to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any novel deceit.” -St. Vincent of Lerins
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qui_est_ce
Guest
I’d have to check the accuracy of their claims. Some of what’s in there is a little sketchy from what I had read of the period. Also, I’d have to check if Pope Innocent III was speaking Ex Cathedra. St Vincent of Lerins, unless he later became a Pope, does not have the Authority to spead Ex Cathedra. Many great saints have erred. St. Jerome disputed including the Deuterorcanonicals when he compiled the Latin Vulgate, but eventually submitted to Pope St. Damasius II.
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