looking for non-Catholic opinion

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Also, the words of consecration were changed: in the traditional form, it was “pro vobis et pro multis”, which means, “for you and for MANY”. Now it is, “pro vobis et pro omnis”, which means, “for you and for ALL”. Might not seem like much of a difference, but it IS a change in theology. I was always under the impression that Catholicism teaches that Jesus died for all, but not all would benefit (since not all will be “saved”.)
maybe somebody already pointed this out, but I received an e-mail during the weekend of msomeone who let me know that Rome has just approved a new translation of the litugical books, and among the changes, there is what Sepharad just pointed out. A return to “for you and for MANY” instead of “for all” which has been in use up to now (since when, BTW?). Also, when the priest says: “The Lord be with you”, the answer will return to what it used to be: “And with your spirit.” There are a few other changes of this kind, returning to the exact translation from the Latin. I hope this be welcome by many, more explicitly faithful to the Catholic doctrines…
 
Memaw;:
As for your remark that the Pope was seeking a compromise with Marxist Liberation Theology is another falsehood someone has started.
That somebody was the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

The compromise that the Congregation sought, was the rejection of orthopraxis, and violence.
Pope John Paul II, (or any other Pope,) has never or never would compromise with Communists.
Do you even know what the difference between Communism, and Marxist Liberation Theology is?

xan

jonathon
 
Strangely enough, in French we had kept the notion of “for you and for many”, so no change there I guess (The changes announced were for the Mass in English)
(For those interested, in French it says"Ceci est la coupe de mon Sang, le Sang de l’Alliance nouvelle et éternelle, qui sera versé pour vous et pour la multitude en rémission des péchés.")
 
maybe somebody already pointed this out, but I received an e-mail during the weekend of msomeone who let me know that Rome has just approved a new translation of the litugical books, and among the changes, there is what Sepharad just pointed out. A return to “for you and for MANY” instead of “for all” which has been in use up to now (since when, BTW?). Also, when the priest says: “The Lord be with you”, the answer will return to what it used to be: “And with your spirit.” There are a few other changes of this kind, returning to the exact translation from the Latin. I hope this be welcome by many, more explicitly faithful to the Catholic doctrines…
I just ran and grabbed my BCP with excitement that the Catholic Church wants to be like us Anglicans…😉 In our church we do say “And with thy spirit” when using the Eucharistic Prayer I.

Ours conintues with–
Celebrant—Lift up your hearts.
People-- We lift them up unto the Lord.
Celebrant-- Let us give thanks unto the Lord.
People-- It is meet and right so to do.

Celebrant-- It is very meet, right, and our bounden duty, that we should at all times, and in all places, give thanks unto thee, O Lord, holy Father, almighty, everlasting God.

Therefore with the Angels and Archangels…

God Bless!
 
What do you think of:

The prayer meeting of Assisi?
A good idea.
The changes in the Mass?
A mixed bag. I like the additional Eucharistic prayers, since I don’t think the Roman Canon compares well to other traditional Eucharistic prayers (the Liturgy of St. Basil, for instance) in terms of conveying the full richness of the meaning of the Eucharist. I’m particularly fond of prayer IV, since it is modeled on the Eastern liturgies. However, I’ve noticed that some priests use the rather truncated prayer II all the time, and I think it’s a bit thin to be the regular Eucharistic prayer of the Church (my observations may be biased by the fact that in recent years I’ve been to a lot more daily than Sunday Masses, and it’s reasonable and appropriate to use prayer II more often at daily Mass). I suppose that I like the idea of having alternatives to the Roman Canon more than I like how the existing alternatives are actually used. And I’m primarily concerned about the issue as an Anglican hoping for reunion. I would not want to see us going from the 1979 BCP’s Eucharistic liturgy to an exclusive use of the Roman Canon, because I think there would be some serious loss there. So I’m glad that there are alternatives. The other changes are generally reasonable, but I’m not sure the Liturgy is supposed to be reasonable. Something is lost when you strip a traditional liturgy down to its “bare bones.” On the other hand, as I see it the primary culprit here was artificial freezing of the Liturgy for centuries, so that organic development never took place. No wonder that when changes did happen, they too were imposed from above. My preference would be for greater freedom for local bishops and episcopal conferences, within generous but clearly defined limits.
The priest facing the people?
I don’t see why the priest has to face in only one direction all the time, or why both stances couldn’t be used in different circumstances (“high” vs. “low” Mass, etc.). I can see good symbol-value in both approaches. Clearly the “versus populum” is better adapted to teaching, while “versus orientem” conveys God’s transcendence and the mystery of the liturgy more powerfully. On the whole, I would prefer to see the Canon itself normally celebrated “versus orientem,” but in a clearly audible voice.
The reception of Communion from the Cup?
Should always be the norm. Communion in one kind is valid but should be exceptional.
The use of EOMHCs?
From my perspective this is an expression of the priesthood of all the baptized. The Eucharist is indeed a divine fire, but we have all been sanctified by the blood of Christ so that we can approach it, if we do so in the fear of God and in a state of charity toward our neighbors.
The vernacular?
Should be used generously, as Vatican II asked. But Latin remains the normative language of the Roman Rite, and this should be made more evident than it is by the use of Latin at places in the liturgy where it will not hinder full and intelligent participation by the laity (this will obviously vary from one set of circumstances to another).
Communion in the hand?
Again, I can see good symbol-value in both methods. I have no strong feelings here one way or the other.
The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?
The Pope’s gotta do what the Pope’s gotta do. Schism is worse than heresy, after all.
The traditional movement in general?
They seem to me to have some valid criticisms of the overly rationalistic approach to the liturgy evident in postconciliar reforms, and of the disconnect between lex orandi and lex credendi that characterizes some forms of "conservative Catholicism. However, in my experience traditionalists (at least the more hardline ones) identify post-Tridentine Catholicism as the be-all and end-all of Christianity, which is a serious mistake. They do not have a serious account of doctrinal and liturgical development, and they often seem motivated by anger and prejudice toward everyone who differs from them. I usually come away from talking to them with a bitter taste in my mouth. They don’t show much that I can recognize as the fruit of humility and charity.

This is not necessarily the case with more moderate traditionalists. One of my best friends is an orthodox Catholic with traditional leanings. I disagree with him on a lot of things, and my theology and piety differ from his widely. But I respect him as my brother in Christ and have learned a great deal from him. So I am not making a blanket condemnation, just a statement about what seems to me to be the trend among traditionalist Catholics.
The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?
I have not heard that he did this. However, I don’t think anyone doubts that the Pope believes that Jesus is the Messiah. That being the case, it is obvious that his prayer referred to what we Christians regard as the Second Coming. I doubt that Jews interpreted it otherwise. If someone with less impressive credentials as a pillar of Christian orthodoxy were to engage in such a prayer, it might be misunderstood. (In other words, I would think twice before doing this myself–I would want to be sure that my Jewish friends understood that I interpreted the prayer rather differently from them!)
The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?
Obviously true.

Edwin
 
A return to “for you and for MANY” instead of “for all” which has been in use up to now (since when, BTW?). Also, when the priest says: “The Lord be with you”, the answer will return to what it used to be: “And with your spirit.” There are a few other changes of this kind, returning to the **exact translation from the Latin. **I hope this be welcome by many, more explicitly faithful to the Catholic doctrines…
This is something translators wrestle with. Exact translations are not always the meaning we have in today’s language. For the MANY, does not mean “only for some, not for all.”

"The liberation brought by Jesus’ death will be for many; cf Isaiah 53:12. Many does not mean that some are excluded, but is a Semitism designating the collectivity who benefit from the service of the one, and is equivalent to “all.” "***
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew20.htm#v28
 
A very strong case can be made that the Pope ordered the ordinations.

At a minimum, the ordinations were done with the permission of the Pope. Permission that was subsequently withdrawn. Depending on who you believe, that permission was withdrawn just before, during, or after the ordinations began.

xan

jonathon
A very strong case . . . indeed.
F****or anybody with an axe to grind against the Catholic Church, that is . . .

The Pope gave permission to consecrate a single bishop - of his choosing, NOT Lefebvre’s. In utter defiance, Lefebvre appointed multiple bishops of his own choosing.
That permission was never granted. In the end, he defied the Pope and the church with his actions. THAT is why he was excommunicated.

Do your homework a little more thoroughly.
 
About “pro vobis et pro multis” vs “pro vobis et pro omnis”…this is the central problem most Traditionalist Catholics had/have with the words of consecration in the novus ordo missae.

However, I think only the English translation had “for all”; the Latin of the novus ordo retained “for many”, as Lapell said, so did the French, evidently.

emeraldcoast, I think its not so much that the RCC is trying to be Anglican, they’re just trying to return to the original words of their own Tridentine Mass. I guess the reason why Anglicans never stopped using it is because the Mass you guys have is the one the RC had at the time the fat guy decided to leave the RCC. Probably the same would be true of the Old Catholics…whatever Mass was in vogue at the time of their split, they must have retained. And until V2, the Mass of the Latin Rite was the Tridentine Mass of Pope St Pius V.
 
elvisman;:
The Pope gave permission to consecrate a single bishop - of his choosing, NOT Lefebvre’s.
The Pope wanted Bishops who were Not Traditional, Faithful Catholics to be appointed — he wanted Bishops who would appease the Marxist Liberation Theologians that were being appointed.
In utter defiance, Lefebvre appointed multiple bishops of his own choosing.
There were several slots to be filled. Canon Law requires that Faithful Catholics be appointed. The Pope wanted unfaithful Catholics to be appointed.
In the end, he defied the Pope and the church with his actions. THAT is why he was excommunicated.
He was excommunicated because the Pope decreed that he (The Pope) trumped Scripture, Canon Law, and Tradition. (IOW, the disobedience was on the part of the Pope — not Lebebvre. )

xan

jonathon
 
The Pope wanted Bishops who were Not Traditional, Faithful Catholics to be appointed — he wanted Bishops who would appease the Marxist Liberation Theologians that were being appointed.

There were several slots to be filled. Canon Law requires that Faithful Catholics be appointed. The Pope wanted unfaithful Catholics to be appointed.

He was excommunicated because the Pope decreed that he (The Pope) trumped Scripture, Canon Law, and Tradition. (IOW, the disobedience was on the part of the Pope — not Lebebvre. )

xan

jonathon
Like I said - you simply have an axe to grind with the Church.
Not having identified yourself as a Catholic, what would you know about being a faithful Catholic anyway?

Lefebvre’s reasons were based on his opinion. Your fixation with Marxist Liberation Theology only shows that you have no idea what you’re talking about in regards to God’s only pilgrim Church.

I grow ever so weary with bitter, nostalgic Catholics (or ex-Catholics) who haven’t the faith to stand by the Church
 
elvisman;:
Lefebvre’s reasons were based on his opinion.
His was an opinion based on Tradition, Scripture, and prior rulings from the Magisterium.

Only if all three of those are demonstrably wrong, is Lefebvre’s reasoning wrong.
that you have no idea what you’re talking about in regards to God’s only pilgrim Church.
Amongst other things, The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith endorsed all save two of the aims and principles of Marxist Liberation Theology.

Oddly enough, one of the aims that it did not endorse was based on the principle that was used to unlawfully excommunicate Lefebrve.

xan

jonathon
 
His was an opinion based on Tradition, Scripture, and prior rulings from the Magisterium.

Only if all three of those are demonstrably wrong, is Lefebvre’s reasoning wrong.

Amongst other things, The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith endorsed all save two of the aims and principles of Marxist Liberation Theology.

Oddly enough, one of the aims that it did not endorse was based on the principle that was used to unlawfully excommunicate Lefebrve.

xan

jonathon
Wrong again. the SCDF does NOT endorse Marxist Liberation theology.

This condemnation
is addressed in a document released by the SCDF a full 4 years before Lefebvre went into schism:

Instruction on Certain Aspects of "Theology of Liberation"
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

**August 6, 1984 **

The present Instruction has a much more limited and precise purpose: to draw the attention of pastors, theologians, and all the faithful to the deviations, and risks of deviation, damaging to the faith and to Christian living, that are brought about by certain forms of liberation theology* which use, in an insufficiently critical manner, concepts borrowed from various currents of Marxist thought.*

IV-10:
Concepts uncritically borrowed from Marxist ideology and recourse to theses of a biblical hermeneutic marked by rationalism are at the basis of the new interpretation which is corrupting whatever was authentic in the generous initial commitment on behalf of the poor.

Again - you have an axe to grind and will resort to half-truths and fantasy to rationalize your point.
 
Would to say Right On for Archbishop Lefebvre group keep on growing.

Second the RC Church has no choice in the matter.

As Archbishop Lefebvre group grows in numbers and the voices grow ever louder and it will become ever deaffing for the RC’s to take.

Tradition will be forced on Roman one way or the other when it come to the use of the old Latin Mass.

You can’t kill the Latin Tridentine Mass in was made by GOD unlike the Novus Ordo that was made by man. GODs’ Divine Mass will win out.

It will over come the Novus Ordo as the true Mass for Catholic in western world.

That is your headache not the Orthodox Church you deal with it.

We will see who wins here…
 
Would to say Right On for Archbishop Lefebvre group keep on growing.

Second the RC Church has no choice in the matter.

As Archbishop Lefebvre group grows in numbers and the voices grow ever louder and it will become ever deaffing for the RC’s to take.

Tradition will be forced on Roman one way or the other when it come to the use of the old Latin Mass.

You can’t kill the Latin Tridentine Mass in was made by GOD unlike the Novus Ordo that was made by man. GODs’ Divine Mass will win out.

It will over come the Novus Ordo as the true Mass for Catholic in western world.

That is your headache not the Orthodox Church you deal with it.

We will see who wins here…
**"Wins out"?? **
The "RC" has no choice in the matter?

First of all - it’s not a contest. The Catholic Church is the ONLY Church established by Jesus himself - in case you forgot the first time I told you.

Secondly, although Jesus gave us the basic formula for the mass, it was further built upon by men guided by the Holy Spirit.

Once again, your complete lack of understanding of the mass and abhorrent grasp of history has exposed you.

Lastly, please work on your sentence structure.


**Have a GREAT day! 👍 **
 
I know this thread seeks for non-Catholics’ opinion… but I want to tell you something: According to a Redemptorist Father, Fr. Pierre Loret, in his History of the Mass, in the beginnings of the Church there were at least four different ways to celebrate Mass. Of course, having the altar touching the wall was one of them, and it used to be the way they celebrate Mass in the Catacombs.
But the way they have done since after Vatican II, THE PRIEST ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ALTAR AND FACING THE CROWD AS WELL AS THE ALTAR, ALSO WAS THERE! Surprising, eh?
That being said, maybe the way used at the Catacombs, given the times we are in now, is apt to make much sense. I won’t deny it. I DON’T hate it, O.K., let’s be clear about it!
But as for “traditional Mass”, know that there exist more than one or two kinds!
 
A very strong case can be made that the Pope ordered the ordinations.

At a minimum, the ordinations were done with the permission of the Pope. Permission that was subsequently withdrawn. Depending on who you believe, that permission was withdrawn just before, during, or after the ordinations began.

xan

jonathon
You gotta be kiddin me!! You got your information from the WRONG source, I’m afraid. Dream on. This is a classic example of how lies get started.
 
elvisman;:
Wrong again. the SCDF does NOT endorse Marxist Liberation theology
Reread it for the first time. It condemned two points, but endorsed the rest of the theology.

I’d also suggest you reread for the first time both the Peublo Report, and what John Paul II said about that report.

Then reread for the first time the rest of JP2’s speeches and proposals, and analyze them in terms of Marxist Liberation Theology.
A full 4 years before Lefebvre went into schism
Lefebrve’s challenge to Catholicism is about the value of Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium.

Marxist Liberation Theology’s challenge to Catholicism is about the sinfulness of endorsing the status quo, when it promotes social injustice.

Both challenges date back to the sixties. The effects of both challenges are being felt in contemporary Catholic culture.

xan

jonathon
 
These issues are debated among Catholics so I thought I’d get the opinon of some non-Catholics (Protestant, Jew, Hindu, Wiccan…I don’t care, just as long as you’re not Catholic and fervent in your own religion). What do you think of:

The prayer meeting of Assisi?

The changes in the Mass?
The priest facing the people?
The reception of Communion from the Cup?
The use of EOMHCs?
The vernacular?
Communion in the hand?

The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre?
The traditional movement in general?

The Pope praying for the coming of the Messiah in the synogogue?

The statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God?
Nothing!

zerinus
 
A very strong case can be made that the Pope ordered the ordinations.

At a minimum, the ordinations were done with the permission of the Pope. Permission that was subsequently withdrawn. Depending on who you believe, that permission was withdrawn just before, during, or after the ordinations began.

xan

jonathon
You hit the nail on the head that time!!! “Depending on WHO you believe!!!” I choose to believe the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC Church. Why is it that those who defy the True Church are so angry at her. I think its because they really know they are wrong and fight to defend their errors in spite of the TRUTH. Just as the Arians (and other heresies) did.
 
Reread it for the first time. It condemned two points, but endorsed the rest of the theology.

I’d also suggest you reread for the first time both the Peublo Report, and what John Paul II said about that report.

Then reread for the first time the rest of JP2’s speeches and proposals, and analyze them in terms of Marxist Liberation Theology.

Lefebrve’s challenge to Catholicism is about the value of Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium.

Marxist Liberation Theology’s challenge to Catholicism is about the sinfulness of endorsing the status quo, when it promotes social injustice.

Both challenges date back to the sixties. The effects of both challenges are being felt in contemporary Catholic culture.

xan

jonathon
I have read the document and it flatly condemns Marxist Liberation Theology. What you are doing is trying to read something that is not there - a typical anti-Catholic tactic. If that is your agenda - don’t waste my time.

I also Googled the “The Pueblo Report” and “The Peublo Report” and found nothing. Who wrote it? Source, please . . .
 
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