Looking for Support: The concept of Hell

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jan10000 said:
I’m denying it right now. Will I go to Hell because I believe God is truly loving and would not send a soul to suffer eternal torment for a finite transgression?
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That’s why I want you to do that thought exercise with the guidance of prayer and the Rosary. You seem like a very loving and meek person who wants the best for everyone. OK, that’s great there is scripture on this, “because you have loved so much your sins will be forgiven,” and, “you need the innocence of a child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” Those are approximations, but I can find the exact lines, but as Catholics we should pretty much know these lines. So, I see you as in that category.

However, supposing there is a Hell (this is the thought exercise) would you still accept God? Again, let’s move away from medieval traditional Hell. Thoughts evolve and religions evolves (so does science by the way) but suppose there is a Hell. We could infer that while not necessarily medieval, it is not a good place to be in. The question you have to pose yourself with prayer is if there is a Hell would you still accept God?

Where I have found myself now in Faith after having done that thought exercise is to be greater involved in Prayer. Remove from my life those things such as entertainment, media and music where the artist is at risk no matter how talented. I’m still a Democrat, but I have greater appreciation of the more Conservative minded in our Religion knowing they are highly more aware of Hell than I ever was. So, my tolerance has grown but so has my discernment.

I’ll write more, but I will say is if as your grow older you ever have a Job moment I recommend praying the Rosary as well as other Prayers. I also recommend going inward with Faith and devoted prayer. I have come to believe most Christian will be called to the test in their lifetime. Again, it’s not something portrayed in media or by popular culture but I’ve come to believe most Christians in good standing will have a Job moment.

Last thing, I would stay away from secularism. Secularists have been with us since the beginning of time. There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to their arguments. Often times what contemporary man calls new was done by the Greeks and Romans pre-Christianity. A lot of what I hear is written almost verbatim from arguments secularists make. Well, I don’t find their arguments compelling. Instead, I find it is all in how they frame the argument and this taints the way they view matters of Fatih.

So, do that thought exercise with Prayer. If there is a Hell would you still accept God. And pray over it. But again if you ever have a Job moment, go deep into prayer and introspection. It’s worth it on the other end you come out renewed.
 
jan10000 said:
My position is NOT radical. Many people believe that traditional Hell (demons, pitchforks) is nothing but a man-made scheme to incite fear in the faithful to control them by medieval Church leaders.
As I said, I am willing to accept ‘Hell’ as a personal choice where someone denies sharing the beatific vision (heaven).

But pain, suffering, fire, demons, gnashing of teeth, and so forth? No. Not my God.

And as I said, don’t be surprised if my viewpoint is actually the majority these days.
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It’s unfortunate you’re rejecting a Church teaching, but the fact that many people or even a majority in society agree with you is irrelevant. The majority of people in society nowadays believe that abortion, fornication etc are perfectly okay too, but that doesn’t make it right. The Church teachings are often not easy fluffy ones that everybody will automatically just agree with.
 
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jan10000 said:
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You are claiming (correct me if I am wrong here) that there is no SPECIFIC location of Hell. If you die, and you do not ‘get into’ heaven, you are saying every other location is thus Hell. Demons are everywhere except heaven. Outside the pearly gates? Demons there. Purgatory? Demons there.

The traditional view of Hell is that it is an actual REALM, ruled by Satan.

If you believe Hell is nothing more that a state of not being in heaven, you are in my camp.

But you seem to be proposing something new. There is no specific location of Hell, Hell is just not being in Heaven. BUT…when you are not in heaven, there are demons everywhere tormenting you. But you are not in a specific realm called ‘Hell’.

That’s what I gathered from what you wrote, which is clearly NOT the traditional view of Hell.
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No, Purgatory is not hell. What I am posting is right from Catholic teachings. One without a body cannot be in a location. Remember this post:
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Looking for Support: The concept of Hell Moral Theology
Place can mean either 1) a particular position or point in space or 2) an order. The rational soul is immaterial so how could there be a particular position in space for it? After the resurrection of the body, then there can be a corporeal spatial hell.
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Place can mean either 1) a particular position or point in space or 2) an order. The rational soul is immaterial so how could there be a particular position in space for it? After the resurrection of the body, then there can be a corporeal spatial hell.
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There are two temporal periods for angels:
  1. Incorporeal angels, neither in the order of heaven nor hell.
  2. Incorporeal angels, in the order of heaven or hell.
There are three temporal periods for humans:
  1. Corporeal humans (body and soul), not in heaven, hell, or purgatory.
  2. Incorporeal souls in an order of heaven or hell or purgatory.
  3. Corporeal humans (body and soul), in a place of heaven (with glorified body) or hell (without glorified body).
 
It’s a problem because you’re rejecting the teaching authority of the Church and also rejecting the truth about Hell. You’re making up your own version of Catholicism.

Whether it’s a big problem or a little problem (given that you say it has no effect on your behavior) is between you, your priest and God.
 
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Jan10000 you wrote: Hell implies a vengeful, unjust God.

More and more Catholic theologians and Catholic Priests teaches Universal salvation, I believe it.

The Scripture should be understand in context and in the light of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

The Scripture is like a coded message/ enigma, can be understand by God’s revelation.
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In the Book of Jonah God provided us His key to understand His enigma/ coded message.

In the book of Jonah God promised destruction and hell to all Ninevites, and He provided Universal Salvation to the Ninevites.
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The same principle applies to the warnings and promises of hell in the New Testament.
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When we are reading the Scripture, we see in parallel there are two lines of teachings.
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One line is only a few people saved, the other line is God’s Universal Salvific Will and He saves everyone (Rom.5:18; Eph.1:10-11; Col.1:20; etc.).

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Before Vatican II our theologians mostly focused on the line teaches only a few people saved.
At Vatican II and after our theologians started to focus on the line which teaches God saves everyone.
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This is above exactly the whole Catholic Church is praying for (1058), we all should believe what we are praying for.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains the ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it.
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, Hom. xxviii in Matt, n. 3 in; P.G., LVII, 354).
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All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, i, v, vi, xv, xvi;).
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His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
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He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him (I, Q. xxii, a. 3; Q. ciii, a. 6); efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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The teachings of universal salvation is not new and it is very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and more and more Catholic theologians and Catholic Priests teaching Universal Salvation which cannot be frustrated.
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God bless
 
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We don’t pronounce on what’s a “mortal sin” here.
As I said above, whether a sin is a big or little problem is between you, your confessor, and God.
 
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jan100000 wrote:
“My rejection of Hell has no bearing on how I live my life. I believed in Hell, I would act no different.
So why is it a problem?”

OK, Ms. Jan10000 that’s fine. But again, you keep focusing on a Medieval version of Hell. I concede that Hell might not be as portrayed in Medieval Tradition. However, it’s still Hell. I think you are more in favor of a Hell where the people there are denied the Beatific Vision. But, then maybe you don’t believe in Hell at all. I can’t exactly tell your position.

Now, where it becomes a concern is that you have stated you would reject God if there were a Hell. But then you qualify it with a medieval version of it. So, it sounds like you would only reject God if there were Medieval Version of Hell. But suppose you reject God if there is a Hell at all, not necessarily a Medieval Hell. That’s where it becomes a problem ie the rejection of God.

Again, the way my life has changed now that I believe in Hell. Is one I silently say prayers more for people. I tend to value the Rosary in prayer and pray for greater discernment of the young. I tend to stop listening to music where I feel the person is at risk, so I listen to just Jazz now. I value more the Sacrament of Confession to be in a state of grace. I remove people in my life who are at risk. Through prayer and reflection, I know I will never reject God but instead serve God. Also, in the future I plan to volunteer for Catholic Charities to better help my fellow man. My gratitude has reached new heights, thankful to have the loving Catholic Family that I do.
 
jan10000 said:
This thread is about the traditional, medieval version of Hell. If you concede that “Hell” is not a place where souls suffer infinite torment for finite transgressions, you are on my side.
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Thanks Jan10000 for your discussion. I actually started the thread, but I don’t believe in a medieval version of Hell. I do believe in Hell though and I do believe at the final judgement going to Hell may result in a renunciation of eternal life. Again, whatever goes on in Hell it is a bad place. I wonder if we can agree with that?

Also, if you ever have a Job moment in life and are called to the test, please pray the Rosary along with other prayers for guidance. I’m not suggesting you will, but if you do then it’s best to favor God, the Son, and the Blessed Mother along with all the Saints through prayer.

Because, again, Evil exists and when I was younger I did not appreciate that because I was so involved with the logic of reform. Now, that I’m older with some experience I know, while uncommon, that there is Evil and that, that Evil cannot be reformed once it reaches a tipping point of mortal sin and corruption. I’m not one to condemn, so again I feel it is uncommon. But the fact it exists is something to become aware of. A point of grieving for them was necessary for me. Now, I’m grateful and turn to prayer along with removing media and influences which I think come from a place of sin.
 
jan10000 said:
Let’s cut to the chase - do you believe Hell is a place where souls suffer infinite torment for finite transgressions?

As best I can tell, your answer is “I’m not sure, but I pray the Rosary and it gives me comfort”. I can respect that if that is your ‘final answer’.
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Gosh, you’re a tough one Ms. Jan10000 However, I did state my position I believe Hell is not sharing in the beatific vision and is a bad place where there is a Satan and his horde. I don’t speculate as to what goes on there. It is not for me to know, but again potentially (here I speculate) there is loss of eternal life during the Final Judgment. I may be veering from Catholic Theology, but we as Catholics do look to the resurrection of the Body in Final judgement, where those in Hell don’t participate in that. Someone correct me if I’m wrong there but that is how I interpret it from Mass.

My final answer is that the Rosary and Divine Office as well as general prayer should be involved in a person’s religious life. And not for yourself, but for others as well or more importantly. May God grace everyone with Repentance through prayer. Not to say you will ever be called to the test, but if you are ever called to the test go to the Rosary and other prayer.
 
Would a parent who loves you teach you the consequences of your actions and then allow you to do what you want and live with the consequences?

I remember teaching a catechism class and having a student ask me about a reading in Revelations that described a lake of fire and an endless torment. I described the plot to Satre’s No Exit. In the play, three people die and are put into a room together, a room they assume at first is a waiting room. As the play unfolds, it becomes clear that the three of them are in this dilemma: I want something from you, Person A, but you hate me. Person B wants me, but I hate them. Person A wants Person B, but Person B hates them. It is an endless circle of self-centered perspective, of selfishness and desire, with no love, no friendship, nothing but each self and their wants that they refuse to fulfill by looking to the needs of someone they don’t happen to like.

Then I asked the class: If you had the choice between an eternity of that or an eternity in a lake of fire, which would you choose? They all chose the lake of fire, in a heartbeat. Then I told them we don’t know what the afterlife is like, but considering how difficult it is to describe something to someone who has never seen it, it is wise to take serious metaphors seriously. (cont.)
 
(cont) If someone was making a radio show and “trying to make a living” by broadcasting things that denigrated you, I don’t think you’d give them a pass on the grounds that they had no other way to feed themselves, would you? They have other ways to keep body and soul together, please.

Now, the words of Jesus in the Bible very clearly forbid judging who is specifically going to Heaven and who isn’t. As an example, someone who died on a cross for crimes that the guy himself said merited capitol punishment was assured he was going to Paradise. He wasn’t up there for stealing turnips.

I think it is impossible to read the plain meaning of the New Testament and come to the conclusion that there is no Hell. That is not what the Apostles taught and it is not what Jesus himself taught. If you don’t believe the New Testament testifies to what Jesus said and did or what the Apostles said and did, then of course you have no idea what any of them said or did. If you read the whole of it–I mean the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew’s Ch 5-7), as an example–there are sins against the love of neighbor that merit eternal punishment, and sexual sins are on the list. Making others into objects of lust is on the list. The Apostles Creed says it very clearly: He will come to judge the living and the dead. On that note, it doesn’t make much sense to say you’re a Christian and you don’t believe in Hell.

The question is whether it is possible to be too in love service to other masters that we will ultimately find we have chosen to lose the love of God. The plain meaning of the Christian Scriptures is that we can. There aren’t any saints or any Popes or any Apostles who ever said otherwise, so to preach that we are incapable of refusing to serve God and incapable of refusing eternal life is to preach something other than Christianity.

To preach that we can commit a sin that cannot be forgiven is contrary to Christianity: there is only one, and it is the sin against the Holy Spirit. It also doesn’t make any sense to be a Christian who doesn’t put their hope in the mercy of God. The Cross is nonsense if we don’t need the mercy of God. Having said that, though, it is a denial of free will to say that no one has the power to choose endless misery instead of submission to the requirements of love. We’ve seen it in this life and we have been told we will see it in the next. We have been told how serious the consequences of such a refusal will be. We need to believe that and we need to avoid encouraging anybody else to believe otherwise.

Even if we teach others that sin makes no difference and they make it to Heaven, will they not still suffer the regret of having lost the opportunity for virtue? Don’t teach other people that their sins aren’t that important, then. It is a very damaging untruth.
 
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jan10000 said:
According to modern Christian doctrine, Hell is a specific STATE of existence after death in which souls “choose” to not participate in the beatific vision (Heaven). There is no pain or suffering, just absence of God.
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What do you mean “modern” Christian doctrine? Where did that come from? Where did you get some idea that the Gospel preached at the beginning was subject to change?

Second, in what universe is the absence of God anything other than an eternal torment? What kind of presumption supposes that living a life in which someone chose to put themselves instead of God at the center (which is by definition a life that rejects Love) is something that would be anything other than a torment?

Read the first letter of John. There is no life outside of the love and truth of God! To believe otherwise is a serious self-deception! Read it for yourself! Works of darkness have no place in God; God will not leave us in such a life. That is no life at all. No, you are suggesting a plane can crash and yet still fly, that a person can choose to live and be happy even though they choose not to breathe. The suggestion that there can be a Hell but it would not be a torment does not make any sense at all.
jan10000 said:
I claim the latter is incompatible with a loving, merciful God (by definition), so I do not believe it is valid. My position is based on reason.
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Where did you get the idea that the Gospel was subject to be changed because someone reasoned their way out of it? No, the New Testament talks about that. That is a non-starter.

Be a Christian or don’t be a Christian, but let’s not have any of this nonsense of an invented Jesus who gives life to those who reject the truth or the demands of love. It isn’t reason that got you to that. That doesn’t even make sense.
 
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jan10000 said:
This common response is invalid because Hell is NOT about teaching lessons. It is about punishment and torment pure and simple. It is eternal. A parent disciplines his child so that the child does not make that mistake again. This is not the purpose of Hell. Hell is vengeance and punishment by an angry God for ever henceforth.

It is incompatible with a merciful God.
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I didn’t ask about whether a parent would discipline a child with consequences.
I asked whether a parent would allow an adult child to choose the life they want, the life the adult child chooses.

Hell is what it is to not have God. It is what it is to wrap your life around your self.

We can look around us, extrapolate from what we see, and admit that a parent cannot force an adult child to make good choices, can’t force them to love, can’t force them to see that self-centeredness will only make the child extremely miserable.

By the way, does it bother you to think that the demons are in torment? That they’re angry all the time? That they hate God and everything that has to do with God? Can you not admit that there might get to be a point where the nature of the choices we make don’t stop being rationalized and the damage we do by our selfishness does not become very real, even if we won’t ever stop blaming someone else and denying the true nature of the choices we make?

A loving God can love us enough to let us be adults and make our own choices. God isn’t going to bend reality into a fantasy that makes us the gods of a little universe of our own making that cannot exist in reality. That’s what Satan wants. It can’t be. Thinking that heaven will be heaven no matter what sort of thinking and acting is in it isn’t “sobriety thinking.”
 
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jan10000 said:
If you believe Hell is just a state of being separated from God - then you are on my side.
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I don’t think that we understand what the afterlife is like in the sense that we understand the physics of Heaven and Hell. We understand the physical laws that govern this life that is bounded by time. The next life is not something that we understand in that way, nor do we need to.
jan10000 said:
No - I think souls that do not share in the beatific vision are just that, souls that don;t share in the vision. No pain, no suffering. But no glory either. And thus, no Hell. That jives with a merciful God.
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What did the demons do that they get Hell? Why is their rebellion worse? Or are they just going to hang out in Limbo, too? Hmmm…a state in which God is absent but those not fit for the Beatific Vision are all there. I know what that sounds like to me.
jan10000 said:
Those souls chose not to be with God, so why are they suffering for it?
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Why are people who choose to self-medicate with alcohol suffering for it? Well, because alcohol doesn’t work when what you need is to love and be loved. There is no substitute for that. Anything to do to self-medicate just puts you into a downward spiral, because whatever it is you’re using to self-medicate is being used in a way that will not work. What you get is increasing frustration, increasing misery, and increasing suffering. People who insist on that when you’re using and want to keep using aren’t persecuting you. They don’t misunderstand you. They are just telling you the truth, whether you accept it or not.

There is no way to refuse love of God and love of neighbor and not be miserable. How could there be? Have you ever been happy without those? Who could be? Or do you think it is love when someone does what they want regardless of whether or not it is authentic to who you are and what the needs of your relationship are? And to do it for eternity? That is to be totally miserable. It is a life of total futility, frustration, anger, and misery. There is no getting around it.

What about the “there was just the one sin” question? Do you know a marriage that is good, well, except that he cheats on her? Good, well, except that she gives him the silent treatment? Good, well, except that he is always picking fights with the neighbor? A good employee, except that he embezzles? A good friend, except that she steals your stuff? Not made a mistake and repents and tries to make amends, but insists that they ought to be able to do just that one thing? Do any of us really not see how one serious refusal can sink a relationship? When the example is a relationship with us, then we see it, I think.
 
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Hell is very real. The devil is very real. In fact, one of his favorite things to do is convince us that he, and hell, are not real. Repent!
 
Dan_Defender:
“In order for us to have free will, evil must exist.”

Hi Dan - Maybe you didn’t phrase your thought as you intended, but free will has existed eternally, before there was evil: God’s will is completely free. Evil did not exist until, in time, there was rebellion among the created angels, whose wills were first created, and free. Thus lucifer and the other demons.
 
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