Looking for Support: The concept of Hell

[MiserereMeiDei]

Because he is “infinitely merciful”

Meaning He will forgive any sin so long as we have attrition or perfect contrition and a firm amendment of life. It doesn’t mean He ignores your sins and the fact that you don’t intend to change and rewards you for it with the reward of those who did repent.

 

[LovelyLadybug]

Not possible since all saints are part of the Church and none of the damned are since the Church is Christ’s body. There are no Catholics in hell or atheists in heaven. People who were baptized, confirmed and even had holy orders, yes. But in hell they are not part of His body. Any former atheist in Heaven converted before dying.

It is possible. Being Catholic helps a lot in getting to heaven, but it doesn’t automatically get you there. Only God knows what’s in people’s hearts. It’s not right to say non-Catholics are going to hell.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

EENS is dogma. It’s not impossible that an atheist converts moments before death. It is impossible that an atheist goes to Heaven.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

And you are correct that being Catholic is no guarantee of salvation. But if one dies in mortal sin one is not part of the Church. The church is the body of Christ and Christ does not suffer in hell.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Conditions don’t limit what is forgiven, the object of forgiveness, but the circumstances under which it happens. But then, even what I said isn’t totally accurate since Jesus did say that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven. And if you were at all catechized in your Catholic school, you will know that that is a reference to final impenitence, which is a doctrine you have decided you cannot abide. God doesn’t forgive the way you want Him to. Oh well.

Anyway, you can argue about it all you like, but it changes nothing and in no way aids you. Seems rather pointless.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

That’s why God isn’t all-good. He allows indiscriminate suffering. You are asserting exactly what the non-believers are claiming.

Oh, ms Jan100000 you are so caught up in the world of non-believers; you are seeing things from their framing of the concept and world-view. Look at it from a different perspective. You never reply to my comments, but again I see the soul as having either a state of grace, or state of mortal sin. Someone who is in a state of mortal sin and continues on that road without repentance sours their soul. They go so far out in their sin, there is no recovery.

There is personal accountability and personal sovereignty involved. This may be out there, but I was just listening to a late night paranormal show and one of the guests a few nights ago was discussing being an exorcist against negative entities and demonic spirits. Now, it’s far out there but the Catholic Church on it’s own conducts Exorcisms. So, yes, there are Demonic Possessions the Catholic Church has to address. I tend not to focus on that because it is rare, but these cases exist.

Atheists will just poke holes like cheddar cheese if you continue to offer them any deference. It isn’t good for you and your Faith. Again, as for a medieval concept of Hell. That is probably not something viable, but the reality of A Hell is certainly viable and true. I can know there is a Hell, yet not proceed with fear; but the secular world would say the concept of Hell is to induce fear. I don’t find that consistent with my experience or the experience of many.

Since the internet age, the secular view has posed their positions online. But look behind the screen at the person, their conduct in life, their overall health and well being. I think you will find a lot of the secular world is lost and if they are suffering it is because they have not accepted Faith. I don’t for the life of me see people in real life who are secular coping well. And of course, there are those secular people who are hedonistic to the point of exploitation so saying, “no,” to anything that gives them temporary gratification feels like a loss of freedom, even if in saying no it would be better for them on Earth and in the after-life.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Here’s another way to look at it Jan10000. Remember, I know in my heart you are a good hearty soul and I used think similarly when I was younger, but through prayer and personal experience I’ve come to understand the opposite. In this I am grateful, and I hope you too get the same experience as I do but in a more loving way.

Here is another way to look at it. You got atheist sinner watching the most lascivious porn out there, wronging his neighbors, committing heinous acts of abuse and violence all the while say, “I am living proof God is not loving because I will not be allowed to enter his house. So, because of me you know God is not the ever loving God you thought he was. So, follow me!” And then you got atheists whose foundations in Faith have never been developed yelling, 'it is logical, we will follow you. Clearly this God is no Good for not allowing you to enter into his house."

Then you get the rest, the flock saying, "ugh, there is nothing logical about this God’s love can’t enter the heart of someone so sinful and egotistical. So, don’t list to them and what they say is logic. Look at his actions. Don’t follow him. Follow the Shepard, the King, the blessed Mother. We’ve been through this same scenario throughout the ages like Ecclesiastes there is nothing new under the sun. "

So, that’s another way to look at it.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Oh, I didn’t realize you have already fallen away. Sorry, about that.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Well, Jan1000 yes, there is a branch of Catholicism that is Orthodox. I didn’t grow up in that kind of environment so I wouldn’t know what it’s like or what it involves.

I grew up in a religious household that voted Democrat but moderate. So, while I respect the Orthodox form of worship it’s not one I recommend. I do agree there are many Catholics who believe different things. I don’t condemn them. And I also don’t think Orthodoxy is the highest form of worship and I wouldn’t compare different Catholics and worship across the world.

But the point of the post was squaring away for me as a moderate Catholic who does not condemn the fact there is a hell and the fact once acknowledging it I had to go through a period of prayer and grieving. With greater knowledge I once again had to reaffirm my commitment to God.

So, if you still consider yourself Catholic, it is for Catholics like you who I want to share my experience with. And I ask that in good faith to pray so that you to may have a transformative experience that greater develops your awareness of God and your relationship with him.

This remind me of a discussion I had with atheists. What the learned for certain there was a God and Jesus was his son. The answers were unanimously they would join a Fundamentalist Church. Odd but they all had extremist thinking. It seems almost like that for you ie Orthodox is the true and only form of worship, and they’re wrong so all Catholicism is wrong. Well, no, I don’t condemn MLK or Ghanaian, so there are other ways to practice which may be better for the individual.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

I replied in the post before this one

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Can you square up an all-loving God with one that tortures ‘innocent’ souls for eternity?

God doesn’t do the torturing. I can see your objections on some level but, quite frankly, they’re not founded on actual theological fact. A sinner who doesn’t choose God at death chooses to distance themselves from Him and they end up in the domain of Satan. We are judged after death. There is no grace to change because the soul upon death is the soul that is judged and those who choose hell choose permanent separation from grace to change. I can go deeper on this if you need me to.

Keep in mind, according to orthodox Catholicism, even the most honorable and moral people (Gandhi, MLK, etc) are all burning in Hell now.

Wrong. Any Catholic should know that you may never declare someone to be in hell. As far as we know, they could be in heaven. We can’t say for sure at the moment.

Many, perhaps most, Catholics feel the way I do.

Truth is not decided by a popular vote.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Those that are not baptized go to Hell. Period. If you disagree with this (as I do), you are not a true Catholic. I have no problem with other Catholics pointing this out to me.

Huh? The Church does not teach that “those that are not baptized go to Hell. Period.”

Where are you getting that from?

The Church also does not teach that Gandhi or MLK are in Hell, or that any human is definitely in Hell. The Church does not even suggest that Gandhi or MLK are in Hell and in fact some shrines and parishes have strongly suggested they think those people are saved although since they will never be canonized saints, the Church will never definitely teach that they are in Heaven either.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

It is true that God doesn’t do the torturing, but note that he is all-powerful and all-knowings o he certainly could stop it. He refuses to.

He knows it would be infinitely worse for that soul to be forced into loving Him. Hell hurts God just as much as the one who goes there. I can’t imagine the pain of losing so many loved ones to their own pride.

this is about active, physical/spiritual torture for all eternity in the flames of Hell for those who make that choice.

That’s what happens because that’s the only other thing that could. The absence of God is the abscence of good.

does a Hindu or Muslim that lives a highly moral life deserve eternal pain and suffering in fire? What choice did they make?

Those who live moral, faithful lives and follow God’s calling, even if not Catholic, may still be mystically united to the Church. We pray for God’s mercy on their souls. While we cannot make firm statements about their souls, the Church has said that even the moral non-Catholic may be in heaven.

 

[Latin]

Huh? The Church does not teach that “those that are not baptized go to Hell. Period.”

Where are you getting that from?

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach it any longer that “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” but use to tech it and in fact, often repeated by the Church Fathers.
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[The holy Roman church] firmly believes, professes, and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church (Session 11 — Feb. 4, 1442).
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846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body. …

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church. …
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God bless

 

[Tis_Bearself]

We do not rely for our Church teachings on documents from 1442.
We rely on the current Catechism, which clearly does not teach that all unbaptized people go to Hell.

 

[catholic03]

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach it any longer that “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” but use to tech it and in fact, often repeated by the Church Fathers.
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The Church does still teach it insofar as all salvation comes from Christ through His Mystical Body - the Catholic Church.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church.

Exactly. God doesn’t play with technicalities. If things like taught biases, lies learned at young ages, or societal censorship keep someone away from the Church, they can’t be faulted for that.

 

[Vico]

Do animals have consciousness?

Human actions in the physical world have consequences felt by beings in the physical world. That’s all we’re asserting.

That’s why God isn’t all-good. He allows indiscriminate suffering. You are asserting exactly what the non-believers are claiming.

Meaning He will forgive any sin so long as we have attrition or perfect contrition and a firm amendment of life.

By using the phrase “as long as” you just validated the position that God is NOT ‘infinitely merciful’.
It is clearly misleading.

Allowing suffering is a necessary consequence of creation which is created imperfect and journeying, and does not imply that the Holy Trinity is not pure goodness.

The Catholic Church does not teach that God is infinitely merciful. Forgiveness of mortal sin is conditioned upon repentance, but actual grace is given even before conversion.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” ( in statu viae ) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. …

1847 "God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."116 To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."117

 

[Latin]

The Catholic Church does not teach that God is infinitely merciful.

For God to save everyone He doesn’t have to be infinitely merciful.
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If God provides even His minimum duty of care to everyone He saves the entire human race as follows:

Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US by our recreation.

At our recreation:
The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace, (De fide). – So, every recreated person loves God and obedient to God, recreation of the entire human race is a part of God’s duty of care.
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At our recreation, God recreated us includes our wills and our choices and we will and we choose EXACTLY what God wills us to will and what God wills us to choose. – Plain and simple.

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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide). – So, every recreated person say with love yes to God’s call to heaven.

2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance.
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The salvation of every predestined to Heaven is eternally protected by God’s gift of Final Perseverance, this is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every predestined to Heaven. – This is an infallible teachings of the Trent and formal teachings of the Catholic Church.

Without God’s gift of Final Perseverance everyone would die in mortal sin, (THERE IS NO SALVATION WITHOUT IT) while the receivers of His gift of Final Perseverance NO ONE can die in mortal sin because this is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every receiver.
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As we see Vico, only those die in mortal sin to whom God doesn’t provides His gift of Final Perseverance, which is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION OF THE SALVATION OF EVERY RECEIVER, WITHOUT IT THERE IS NO SALVATION.
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God bless

 

[Heaveniswaiting]

Its funny bc i saw somewhere that some people believe in heaven but not in hell…so Im guessing live however you want to cause in the end your all going to paradise!