Looking for Support: The concept of Hell

[OneSheep]

Think of it this way, God forces us to die, we have no choice, yes we have choice to sin but no choice to die, no one can be choosing Hell as they are not choosing to die in mortal sin, they are just choosing to sin mortally.

Interesting, worth giving some thought.

So it’s not that you or I don’t forgive them or God does not forgive them, it is they can never change… I usually but people who caused genocide or the serial killer in this category.

Well, you don’t know that (and neither do I). It sounds like you believe that people can’t change, and I believe people can change.

So it’s not that you or I don’t forgive them or God does not forgive them

Do you forgive (from the heart) serial killers? I’m not talking about acquittal, letting them continue to go and kill. Can you understand from where they come? Can you painfully admit that all of us could be serial killers if we are raised under the same circumstances and end up with the same blindness as they do?

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

I am more inclined to believe "with God, all things are possible. A merciful possible.

I don’t think you understand that your chance to accept mercy is over once you die. Donezo. If a soul hates God on death, it hates God. Period. I’m sorry but that’s just how it works.

And if you would not physically intervene to stop your own child from jumping off a bridge, well, I don’t know how to address that charitably.

A child could be restrained. The hellbound soul will choose hell no matter what.

“Would our infinitely loving, merciful, forgiving God allow a person to choose hell when the person does not know what they are doing?”

The question relies on the base assumption that the hellbound soul doesn’t know what it is doing. This is false, as I explained: They choose love of something else over Him. They desire the flames because they are what they crave.

“If something you read in scripture or elsewhere presents an image of a God who loves you less than the person who loves you most, then something is amiss.”

True love is not slavery. God does not want us to be his slaves. We are free to follow Him or not and that is true love. God wants us to truly love Him. So, yeah, I agree with that quote. But a God which forces a soul that doesn’t love Him into an eternal relationship with Him is a God I am disgusted by and would never worship.

 

[oliver109]

God is the one choosing to make that “hellbound soul” die when he could in reality spare him or her death, there are also many people that sin but ultimately want to stop, perhaps they sin out of weakness, lack of trust in God, find it more convenient etc, they do not I believe intend to sin for eternity but probably sin because they find it easier than living without sin, why did God make it so jolly easy to sin?

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

why did God make it so jolly easy to sin?

Well, we did. Adam and Eve corrupted the human will and made us reliant on Grace to live holy lives. God just gave free will.

 

[oliver109]

God is still responsible over how easy it is to sin or not, I imagine if he gives us truckloads of grace then sinning becomes as difficult as learning Cantonese.

 

[Latin]

Specifically, even if you can philosophically justify free will (which is so far as I can tell, impossible), the free will provided by God comes with numerous caveats. One being he can intervene and counteract our free will at any moment.

Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.
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CATHOLIC VIEW ON LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence also says;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

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CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES AIDED FREE WILL AS FOLLOWS

St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination​

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it"
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will."

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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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God bless

 

[Latin]

Are you taking Jan1000 and OneSheep positions there is no Hell? Are you taking another position?

I agree with Jan10000 and OneSheep positions and I also provide related Catholic teachings which brings light on the existence or non-existence of hell.

God’s will is immutable, God is working on to save everyone and to make everyone noble and joyful saint in Heaven.

God bless

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Place can mean either 1) a particular position or point in space or 2) an order. The rational soul is immaterial so how could there be a particular position in space for it? After the resurrection of the body, then there can be a corporeal spatial hell.

So then do you believe Hell is an actual place or not? Are there souls now in Hell, a specific spiritual location ruled over by Satan, where demons torture them for eternity? Yes or no?

No, not if by spiritual location, materialism, emanationism, or pantheism is implied. As previously posted the word place has two different meanings. Now, you are proposing a spiritual location, and location has as a synonym situation:

a set of circumstances in which one finds oneself; a state of affairs.

The soul and the angelic spirits (including the fallen) are neither actually conjoined with a material organism nor requiring that union. The human rational soul is not composed of parts, but is simple. Heaven and purgatory and hell are certainly locations in the sense of the word situation, which is more commonly described as state. The question can be asked again, from the Parousia.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

but Original Sin implies indefinite guilt inheritance.

It’s not so much that we are guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin in the traditional “It was my fault” sense as it is that they broke our human nature and corrupted it. That brokenness is inherited by all humans descended from them (which is everyone). I agree that it would make no sense if we were guilty in the traditional way of original sin.

Make sense?

the free will provided by God comes with numerous caveats. One being he can intervene and counteract our free will at any moment.

Can He? Yeah. Does He? No. God did not make us His slaves. True love is never gained by forcing someone to do something. God gave us free will so that we’d be able to choose to love Him freely and totally. He wouldn’t interfere with that as it would restrict someone’s ability to choose Him and that’s against God’s nature.

 

[OneSheep]

The hellbound soul will choose hell no matter what.

How can you possibly know that?

Matthew 19:26 New International Version (NIV)

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

If a soul hates God on death, it hates God.

If a soul hates God, he is seeking self-destruction. He does not know what he is doing, nor does he know God. We will examine this below.

The question relies on the base assumption that the hellbound soul doesn’t know what it is doing. This is false, as I explained: They choose love of something else over Him. They desire the flames because they are what they crave.

Okay, let’s examine this a bit. Is the person thinking something like, “I choose to love money over God, for money is more fulfilling. In addition, I crave flames.”?

True love is not slavery. God does not want us to be his slaves. We are free to follow Him or not and that is true love. God wants us to truly love Him. So, yeah, I agree with that quote. But a God which forces a soul that doesn’t love Him into an eternal relationship with Him is a God I am disgusted by and would never worship.

Yeah, God wants us to love Him, and he doesn’t force us, though He is going to do all He can, and that is a LOT. We cannot imagine what God can do, right? No forcing is necessary. Since saying “no” to God is a matter of blindness or lack of awareness “for they know not what they do”, which we are examining above, all that is needed is for a person to open their eyes and ears. I think that we can rest assured that God has ways of coaxing people to open their eyes and ears in a very gentle, loving way.

 

[OneSheep]

Yep - this sums it up. And so, how can the traditional Hell exist?
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said, but it’s still not clear what your view on traditional Hell is.
Clearly, as you’ve pointed out, there is psychological foundation for BELIEVING in Hell, but is there an ACTUAL Hell?

I think someone mentioned about hell not being a “place”. Metaphorically speaking, there is absolutely an “actual” hell. I know people who have been there, just ask an addict. It is a “place” of suffering.

What if hell is a bootcamp? Well, then it would be more like what we think of purgatory. Since the topic of hell’s existence and its characteristics has been on the minds of many for millenia and no human really knows, it is worth pondering but not asserting. I think that the metaphors can be valuable, but when we assert that “God wants this person there” or “God has no way of convincing certain people to change their mind”, then that compromises the image of omnipotence and omnibenevolence.

In my opinion, it behooves the Church to allow for a range of opinions about hell. What is more important is the understanding that God loves and forgives without limit, without condition, and that fully aware people love God and want to be in relationship.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

How can you possibly know that?

Once again, the soul which chooses hell is not going to change. Here on Earth we are given grace and guidance to change our ways and turn to God. Once we die, we are judged and there aren’t any more chances to change our minds. That’s it. Done. I’ve already explained this many times and will not address this point again.

Is the person thinking something like, “I choose to love money over God, for money is more fulfilling. In addition, I crave flames.”?

It’s more “I choose to love money over God because money is more fulfilling. Therefore, I do not want to be in a place where, by definition, I must love God above all things. It would be agony.”

“for they know not what they do”,

This does not mean what you say it means. If you were right, then mortal sin would literally be impossible since nobody who sins knows what they’re doing and everyone that knows isn’t sinning. Jesus said this because He knew that those who beat, mocked, and killed Him did not accept in their hearts that He is the Son of God.

 

[OneSheep]

Once again, the soul which chooses hell is not going to change.

I find it quite interesting that you refuse to believe in a God who would force us to come to him (which I agree), but you strongly believe that God forces a person not to change their mind about going to hell. So much for freedom, right?

Note: You did not address “with God, all things are possible”.

It’s more “I choose to love money over God because money is more fulfilling. Therefore, I do not want to be in a place where, by definition, I must love God above all things. It would be agony.”

Does this person believe the truth, or does he believe an untruth? Is loving God truly agony? Is money truly more fulfilling? Does he know that all material things (including money) come from God? All those questions are important.

Jesus said this because He knew that those who beat, mocked, and killed Him did not accept in their hearts that He is the Son of God.

I haven’t seen that interpretation. From where did it come?

Did the people who wanted the other two people crucified know what they were doing? Note: I am using an all-inclusive definition of “know”.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

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As we see above Vico, Mortal sin is NOT a radical possibility of human freedom but God’s absolute predestination not to go to heaven.
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God bless

The Catholic Church teaches otherwise, as per the Catechism 1861. A person is the partial cause of their own salvation (in the order of time) per the dogmas of faith of the Catholic Church.

ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT

2.“Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works” ( JD 15).
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C) Justification takes place “by grace alone” ( JD 15 and 16), by faith alone , the person is justified “apart from works” ( Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).
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3.The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an “indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ” ( JD l8).

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-annex_en.html

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MERIT
Council of Orange 529 AD
CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.
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Divine reward for the practice of virtue.
“The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but GRACE which is unmerited PRECEDES actions in order that ENABLE them to be done.”
Council of Orange 529
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Ibid. 6. 15: "If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts."
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: "What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts."

St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.
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My view is, we should do as much works as we can, not for the reason of the fear of hell but for the reason out of sheer love and for the Glory of God.

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CCC 298 Since God could create everything out of nothing, he can also, through the Holy Spirit, give spiritual life to sinners by creating a pure heart in them.
And since God was able to make light shine in darkness by his Word, he can also give the light of faith to those who do not yet know him.
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Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
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By recreation as described above, God saves even the most hardened sinners.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

The state of grace which is necessarily given first by God is the partial cause of salvation when the person through free will cooperates with it in time, which is the other part. Where there is no cooperation then there is reprobation which is not caused God but by the person.

 

[Latin]

Besides, predestination is a misconception.

The Catholic dogma
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect.

ante prævisa merita
“Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.”

(1)Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, with all the different measures of grace and the various degrees of happiness, has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the definiteness of the number of the elect, follows naturally from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the predestined is unchangeable, then the number of the predestined must likewise be unchangeable and definite, subject neither to additions nor to cancellations. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience. Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number of the elect, but also the individuals with their names.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

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Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance. …
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The salvation of every predestined to Heaven is eternally protected by God’s gift of Perseverance, this is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every predestined to Heaven. – This is an infallible teachings of the Trent and formal teachings of the Catholic Church.

Without God’s gift of Perseverance everyone would die in mortal sin, (THERE IS NO SALVATION WITHOUT IT) while the receivers of His gift of Perseverance NO ONE can die in mortal sin because this is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of every predestined to Heaven.
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God bless

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

God forces a person not to change their mind about going to hell.

I never said or meant that. I said that God doesn’t force people to love Him that don’t want to. Once you die, that grace which brings you to God isn’t there to change you. You make your decision; to love or not, and then that’s it. I don’t see what you don’t understand.

You did not address “with God, all things are possible”.

Could He? Yes. Would He? No. It would violate His will of bringing us to only the purest form of love with Him.

Is loving God truly agony?

Being forced to love something you do not is.

All those questions are important.

No, they aren’t. They’re purely red herrings designed to distract from the truth: A soul, unchanging after death, which doesn’t love God will never love God.

I have absolutely nothing more to say and we’re just going in circles. I honestly don’t know what would change your mind on this so I’m going to stop responding.

Peace

 

[oliver109]

Were not talking about God forcing someone to accept him, we are talking about God forcing us to make a final decision on death, why does he do that? why does he make us have a final choice? why not let us choose between sin and goodness forever if we want to?

 

[OneSheep]

I said that God doesn’t force people to love Him that don’t want to.

Yes, that is what you said.

Once you die, that grace which brings you to God isn’t there to change you.

So God is withholding from man the ability to change his mind? Indeed, grace often comes in the form of suffering, which leads to repentance. So a person in hell is graced with reasons to change his mind, but God does not let him? Or does God limit Himself for some reason? Anything is possible with God, but letting someone change their mind is not possible?

Could He? Yes. Would He? No. It would violate His will of bringing us to only the purest form of love with Him

God would not allow a person in hell to change his mind and go to God because it would not be “pure love”?

OneSheep:

Is loving God truly agony?

Being forced to love something you do not is.

Yes, perhaps being forced to love is somewhat agonizing, but that was not my question. Is loving God truly agony? We can attest that this is not the case, it is not agony at all. So then, the person who believes that “loving God is agony” is believing a falsehood, therefore he does not know what he is doing.

A soul, unchanging after death, which doesn’t love God will never love God.

I have no idea how you could know this about people. With God, all things are possible.

I have absolutely nothing more to say and we’re just going in circles. I honestly don’t know what would change your mind on this so I’m going to stop responding.

Peace

Actually, I don’t think we are going in circles, but if you don’t mind my noting, you are not answering my questions. Is money truly more fulfilling? If he believes that, then he is also believing an untruth, and does not know what he is doing. If he saw that even money is part of material things that come from God including his own body, then he would be thankful and have respect, and would love the source of what gives him joy. If he believes “God has nothing to do with things material”, then he again is believing an untruth, he does not know better.

Getting to the root of people’s blindness and lack of awareness, seeing it in all cases of hurt or offense, is a very important use of the gift of Understanding. Jesus saw this from the cross, and we can see it in everyday life. If a person chooses hell, if a person chooses to hurt someone, they are missing something very important, or they are blind. Understanding involves use of emotional and cognitive empathy, it is a path to a deeper forgiveness.

Peace be with you also!

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Can you understand from where they come?

I think the first part discussing people changing sums up our disagreement. Again, I was like you Jan1000 and Latin when I was younger. And your second part about circumstance I found grieving as well, although again I think God does weigh circumstance to a certain extent and does intervene in people’s lives who openly accept Him.

But again, circumstance is where the grieving comes in. I’m not wealthy and neither are my parents but I was blessed to have parents who are loving and understanding and not punitive. With that understanding I consider myself blessed for having the right circumstances to make the right decisions. I grieve for the sinner who has defiled himself with sin due to upbringing. I’m grateful to have my parents and I don’t take that lightly.

But like I wrote, there was a period of grieving once I understood there was a hell. Now, I understand it’s not like the media portrays. For people who are open to it, God does intervene in people’s lives. That intervention isn’t documented and it’s only anecdotal. There are no studies on it. And the breadth of a person’s life and their willingness to accept God is not something studied. From my experience God reaches everyone he can.

So, we disagree on whether people change. I think people who are open to God can change and do change. How ever, I do think there are people who are hard hearted, closed to God who can never change. Whether some people are more blessed than others when it comes to the fundamentals of a loving family, yes. But again while I grieve for them, I know it is not God’s fault. The parents fell away from God first, then come the children who fall away. I want the best for all involved but if they have to go to Hell for grievous sin and grievous heart, I understand why.

Again, I am not wealthy or poor. With my current understanding of there being a Hell, I appreciate God, my family and Heaven even more. It’s not the opposite where I say, “God, not everyone has an even playing field. So, you are unfair.” No, that is not my response. People are unfair in the environments they create and they too will be judged.

Notice how much personal revelation is involved in accepting there is a Hell? A lot of work is involved, but ultimately gratitude and love are the result. If you are correct there is no Hell. Wonderful, leap for joy all are saved. But I don’t feel that way nor is it a Catholic position. Even the Buddhists and Hindus believe in Hell. It seems among the major religions a discussion of it is present. So, for me growing in my relationship with God and my family I have come to accept how lucky we are and I would not change my life for anyone else’s no matter how wealthy, beautiful, or successful.