Looking for Support: The concept of Hell

[Vico]

…

One is a partial cause (in the order of time) of one’s own salvation.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Allowing suffering is a necessary consequence of creation which is created imperfect and journeying, and does not imply that the Holy Trinity is not pure goodness.

That is the problem. If you believe the above, God cannot be all-powerful, because there is a higher order that even He must adhere to. In other words, God cannot be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good. He can be any two of the three, but not all three. In your reasoning, you have sacrificed the ‘all-powerful’ aspect. If you do that, your worldview stands. But in your worldview, God is not all-powerful.

The Catholic Church does not teach that God is infinitely merciful. Forgiveness of mortal sin is conditioned upon repentance, but actual grace is given even before conversion.

That is exactly what I am saying. God is NOT infinitely merciful. However, the phrase ‘infinitely merciful’ is used everywhere, and many Catholics disagree with us. I think usage of the term is misleading:

How Do We Know That God's Mercy Is Infinite and Unlimited? | Catholic Answers

God is all powerful because God by His own will is following that rule.
God is morally good because God defines morality.
God is all knowing because God is beyond time, the author of creation.

The word infinite can be used in the correct sense with mercy.

Oxford Dictionay
infinite (adj):
1 limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

because there is a higher order that even He must adhere to.

This is a misunderstanding of the nature of God. God wills, God does. He feels no temptation to do anything than what He wants. He wants to be good, therefore, He is good.

Again - we are not talking about failure to enter heaven. We are talking about actively inflicting pain and suffering by demons.

They are one in the same. Did you not see above, where I said that life without God, without good, is only evil and pain? If you skip parts of my posts, I can’t discuss with you.

Many (perhaps even most) Catholics no longer believe in that version of Hell.

Once again, truth isn’t about popular vote. Hell is real and hell is painful. Jesus said so Himself.

A soul that does not ‘qualify’ for heaven could simply cease to exist.

How? God does not destroy. God, because He only wills to create, to do good, cannot do evil and destroy any part of eternal creation.

What do you mean by “may”?

I mean “may.” We don’t know.

Is baptism a requirement for the beatific vision or not? Must you be a Christian or not?

Baptism is necessary but it doesn’t have to come in the form of running water. God has His ways of bringing others to Himself, specifically those who didn’t choose against the Church, but rather never knew it. You don’t need to be Christian. I don’t know where you learned this or why you keep insisting (incorrectly) that it’s Church teaching.

Is a moral Muslim going to Hell or Heaven? Do they have to be MORE moral than a Christian?

We don’t know, we literally cannot say. It’s up to the mercy of God. They wouldn’t have to be more moral than a Christian. Christianity isn’t “easy mode” if that’s what you’re thinking.

Is a sexually active gay Christian going to heaven before a celibate Muslim?

I can’t say. If that Christian persists in mortal sin willingly and never repents, they’ll go to hell. If that Muslim never knew Christ’s Church by no fault of their own and followed God with heart and mind, we trust God’s mercy that they’ll go to heaven.

I’m not OK with the “they could go to heaven” dodge.

Tough luck. We can’t make any definitive judgements.

he allows suffering by his own will,

Is it ever love to force someone to love you? Could God and man truly love one another if man didn’t choose God? Suffering is a result of sin, either from modern man or from the corruption of the world by Adam and Eve. Without free will to choose God, we can’t love Him. Suffering is necessary for the good of loving God.

 

[Gorgias]

That’s why God isn’t all-good. He allows indiscriminate suffering. You are asserting exactly what the non-believers are claiming.

Hang on a second. I want to make sure that we understand what you’re saying: “the presence of suffering implies that God isn’t all-good”. Is that the thesis?

So, when you work out at the gym and really suffer, and end up in awesome, healthy shape… that proves God isn’t all-good?

And when you teach your child to ride a bike, but he falls a couple times while learning… that proves God isn’t all-good?

And when you suffer for the sake of a loved one… that proves God isn’t all-good?

(But, let’s take the difficult part of the question: when you suffer for something that you can’t perceive as resulting in something good… well, then you say “God isn’t all-good”, right?)

But, there’s a problem there. Let’s categorize it to see the problem:

Stuff	Do I have perspective?	Is God all-good?
Gym workout	Yes	Yes!
Child bike fall	Yes	Yes!
Suffering for another’s good	Yes	Yes!
Cancer	No	No!
Tornado	No	No!
Holocaust	No	No!

Can you see what’s going on here? You’re willing to posit that God’s all-good when you understand what good can come of it… but you’re not willing to do so when you don’t have that perspective.

In other words… you’re not asserting things about God – you’re making assertions about you yourself!

So, I would say that you haven’t proven that God is not all-good; you’ve merely proven that you aren’t omniscient.

By using the phrase “as long as” you just validated the position that God is NOT ‘infinitely merciful’.
It is clearly misleading.

Nope. “Infinitely merciful” doesn’t mean “indiscriminately merciful”, as you seem to be implying.

Would it be merciful forgive someone who isn’t contrite and who plans on turning right around and committing that sin again? (e.g., is it “merciful” to release a serial killer back into society?)

 

[Gorgias]

I am saying that when Catholics say God is “infinitely merciful” they are being misleading, as God clearly is not - at least according to traditional Catholic doctrine.

I think you’re mischaracterizing what it meant.

We look at the scandals, not just the pedophilia and cover-ups but the greed, the financial crimes, and all the other scandals.

Yes! Please do! And, in doing so, realize that people are committing these crimes. People sin. Catholics, Christians, non-Christians, atheists. We all sin. Do you think you’re “disproving” Catholicism by pointing out that people sin? Do you think you’re “disproving” Catholicism by pointing out that Catholics don’t meet the standards they’d like to uphold?

All people fail. It’s a sign that they’re human.

We are told what we do is wrong, yet our heart says it is right. How can that be?

Are you now asserting that you’re personally infallible in your opinion?

I am much more comfortable with the concept of a loving God who does not torture souls for eternity.

That’s what Catholics believe, too. God doesn’t “torture souls for eternity.” If that’s what you were taught, you were taught incorrectly.

You act as if you’re better off now that you’ve accepted a world where moral and ethical souls still thrash in agony simply because they were never baptized.

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach this, either! You seem to be really misinformed about the Catholic Church – or, at the very least, you’re ascribing things that others believe as if the Catholic Church believes it.

Those that are not baptized go to Hell. Period. If you disagree with this (as I do), you are not a true Catholic.

Nope. You’re mistaken. I don’t know what a “true Catholic” is to you… but if they believe the things that you say they do, then they’re horribly uninformed ab out the Church.

According to Catholic dogma you can ONLY enter the kingdom of heaven if you are baptized.

Nope. Tell you what: show me where the Church teaches that, and I’ll shut up. On the other hand, once you’re not able to show it, I’ll show you where it teaches precisely the opposite.

It is true that God doesn’t do the torturing, but note that he is all-powerful and all-knowings o he certainly could stop it. He refuses to.

Right: He refuses to force someone to accept and love Him. That’s not a sign of being “not all-good” – it’s a sign of not being a tyrant.

We do not rely for our Church teachings on documents from 1442.

More to the point, we do not rely on misunderstandings of the contexts and writings of 1442.

 

[Gorgias]

The Church does still teach it insofar as all salvation comes from Christ through His Mystical Body - the Catholic Church.

That doesn’t equate to “unless you’re baptized Catholic, you go to hell.”

 

[drifter106]

God does not send people to hell, rather because of an individuals free will and choice they chose to be without God and everylasting life.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

God is all powerful because God by His own will is following that rule.
God is morally good because God defines morality.

If you are saying God is all-powerful but he allows suffering by his own will, then by definition he is not “all-good”.

No. God is still all good even with suffering. God gives everything needed in order for angels and humans to participate in the Beatific Vision, any failure is on the part of the individual.

Catechism

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

 

[Latin]

One is a partial cause (in the order of time) of one’s own salvation.

Is that means, God can only claim a part of the Glory for your salvation (because only a part of your salvation is His gift and the other part is your own merit) and part of the Glory for your salvation belongs to you Vico NOT TO GOD?
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I believe, my salvation and my merits both 100 % God’s gifts and the Glory for it solely belongs to God.

St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination​

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it"
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will."
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Ibid. 6. 15: "If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts."
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: "What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts."
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St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.
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301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
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God bless

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

I’m answering your questions but I get the feeling you’re not actually trying to understand what I’m saying. I’m going to depart from this conversation to avoid any frustration or anger.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

God is still all good even with suffering.

Your definition of “good” is vastly different than mine if you think the horrible suffering in the world is consistent with an “all-good” God.
Disease, suffering, hunger, poverty, war, violence…it goes on and on.
If you refuse to address the question but simply denying that suffering is bad, there’s no point in continuing.

I did address it earlier, but thought I posted from the Catholic Encyclopedia, but did not (I just checked). The two actual evils are the result of the fall: moral evil and physical evil. Metaphysical evil is not actually evil but of necessity.

Catholic Encyclopedia, evil:

Metaphysical evil is the limitation by one another of various component parts of the natural world. Physical evil includes all that causes harm to man, whether by bodily injury, by thwarting his natural desires, or by preventing the full development of his powers, either in the order of nature directly, or through the various social conditions under which mankind naturally exists. … By moral evil are understood the deviation of human volition from the prescriptions of the moral order and the action which results from that deviation.
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Pain, which is the test or criterion of physical evil, has indeed a positive, though purely subjective existence as a sensation or emotion; but its evil quality lies in its disturbing effect on the sufferer. In like manner, the perverse action of the will, upon which moral evil depends, is more than a mere negation of right action, implying as it does the positive element of choice; but the morally evil character of wrong action is constituted not by the element of choice, but by its rejection of what right reason requires.

Sharpe, A. (1909). Evil. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm

 

[Vico]

Vico:

One is a partial cause (in the order of time) of one’s own salvation.

Is that means, God can only claim a part of the Glory for your salvation (because only a part of your salvation is His gift and the other part is your own merit) and part of the Glory for your salvation belongs to you Vico NOT TO GOD?
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I believe, my salvation and my merits both 100 % God’s gifts and the Glory for it solely belongs to God.

…

I posted this before, in reply to you, I think more than once, from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Owing to the infallible decisions laid down by the Church, every orthodox theory on predestination and reprobation must keep within the limits marked out by the following theses:
a) At least in the order of execution in time (in ordine executionis) the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness;
b) hell cannot even in the order of intention (in ordine intentionis) have been positively decreed to the damned, even though it is inflicted on them in time as the just punishment of their misdeeds;
c) there is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

The best hypothetical decree that I read there is that of St. Francis de Sales (from the same C.E. article):

Just as in time eternal happiness depends on merit as a condition, so I intended heaven from all eternity only for foreseen merit. – It is only by reason of the infallible foreknowledge of these merits that the hypothetical decree is changed into an absolute: These and no others shall be saved.

Pohle, J. (1911). Predestination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

 

[Gorgias]

Clearly. the word “infinite” does not apply to God’s mercy, so why describe it that way

“Infinite” does not preclude “conditional”. You seem to want to suggest that it does, and that doesn’t hold up to logical scrutiny.

Consider if I told you “My mother is perfect in every way”. Then you point out that my mother is twice divorced, was arrested for drunk driving, and quit her job. If I continue to claim she is still perfect in every way, I’m being misleading. I can clarify and say that “My mother is perfect in my eyes” or similar.
But obviously Catholics use the phrase “infinitely merciful” to invoke a reaction, when by definition, it is not true.

Not even close to being a reasonable comparison. “Drunk driver” and “quit her job” aren’t even reasonably comparable on the surface to the claim that you’re making. Now, if you said “my mom refuses to forgive me when I’m unwilling to ask for forgiveness, and that’s why she’s a bum”, then we’d have something to talk about. As it is, though… your analogy really does fail to address the situation.

 

[Latin]

b) hell … is inflicted on them in time as the just punishment of their misdeeds;

Let’s see in Catholic Soteriology what it really means, “Hell is just punishment of their misdeeds.”
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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – So, God created the dramas of evil and sin, with other words, “our misdeeds.”

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As we see Vico, if God would willed He could create this world like the life is in Heaven, free will, no evil, no sin, no worry of hell, but we would be spoiled brats, not joyful saints. – Free will is NOT the cause of sin, in fact sin is God’s creation, God created “our misdeeds" for us to commit for our benefit.
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THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN

Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.

Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.

In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L.

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With infinite wisdom and goodness God created the dramas of evil and sin (“our misdeeds”).

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design” (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI,

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God Designed, Decreed, Foreordained every event which happened, happening or will happen in the universe, includes all our salutary act and includes all our act of sins (“our misdeeds”).
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Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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Now Vico in the light of Catholic Soteriology, would it be a “just punishment” if God would throw us to hell “for our misdeeds” what He Designed, Decreed, Foreordained for us to commit for our benefit and for the benefit of the entire human race?
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…
Now Vico in the light of Catholic Soteriology, would it be a “just punishment” if God would throw us to hell “for our misdeeds” what He Designed, Decreed, Foreordained for us to commit for our benefit and for the benefit of the entire human race?
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God bless

Yes.

Also see the Catechism:

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; 620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. …

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. …

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “Why would a just and loving God make such a claim?”

Response: God’s will is permissive, permitting the free will of angels and humans is necessary for the expression of love, and has the additional consequence that some will choose not to love. No creature has a right to see The Holy Trinity (the Beatific Vision) however can be gifted it through choosing final charity.

You wrote: “But why must ‘exclusion’ be replaced by eternal torment in fire tortured by demons?”

Response: Exclusion can be used instead. It is eternal existence because that is what all rational beings have. Still those excluded will be with the others excluded, which includes to non-coporeal fallen angels (demons). We are not alone, heaven or hell.

You wrote: "How does exclusion, which makes sense, extend to eternal torture?

Response: torture id defined (Oxford) “the action or practice of inflicting severe pain or suffering on someone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something.” Remember that we have free will, and are given the grace to not sin, so it cannot be called torture per the proper definition.

You wrote: “How is an eternal punishment justifiable for a finite sin? A God that proscribes an eternal existence of horrible pain and suffering for a finite transgression is undeniably cruel and sadistic. How can you claim otherwise?”

Response: I think the word proscribes is an error so I will take it as prescribe. It is a finite decison with eternal results, as stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: “for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back”. We have what is natural but what is supernatural and preternatural are conditioned gifts, to which we have no rights. Pain and suffering follows from the fact that a human person is a composite of body and soul so both will then be, in the resurrection to hell, limited to what is natural. You assume that God will not know that a person given another opportunity would flip-flop. Remember the dogma of faith of God’s desire that all be saved.

 

[NoelFitz]

I am grateful to the OP for raising issues that attracted such interest. I, respectfully would suggest he does not listen to radio programs that are upsetting.

I believe we are all made by a loving God, and we are all good, as nothing he made is not good.

Also he wishes all to be saved (1 Ti 2:4), and he is almighty and hence his will is stronger than ours.

But we do not know if any one of us will be saved or damned. God is a merciful judge and all we can do is hope and pray that all will be well (Julian of Norwich).

 

[Average_Joe17]

My dad bought me this book. It’s called “The Dogma of Hell” by F. F.X Schowppe. I’ll just explain a few main points he makes.

“Jesus Christ proclaims it [the reality of Hell] as many as 15 times in the Gospel.”
" You do not believe in Hell? And there is no Hell because you do not believe in it? Will Hell exist any less because you do not please to believe in it? Should a thief be so foolish as to deny that there is a prison? Would the prison thereby cease to exist if he did not believe in it? And would the thief not enter it?"

“The truth of Hell is so clearly revealed that heresy has never denied it.”

“The kings of this earth have prisons to punish their refractory subjects; how can God, king of the universe, be without a prison for those who outrage his majesty?”

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “That is not the Christian view of Hell for sure.”

Response: But it actually is. Poene damni is the pain of loss: “the pain of loss is but the natural consequence of that aversion from God which lies in the nature of every mortal sin” (CE)

The poena sensus , or pain of sense, consists in the torment of fire … the nature of hell-fire is different from that of our ordinary fire.

According to theologians the pain of loss and the pain of sense constitute the very essence of hell, the former being by far the most dreadful part of eternal punishment. But the damned also suffer various “accidental” punishments.

• Just as the blessed in heaven are free from all pain, so, on the other hand, the damned never experience even the least real pleasure. In hell separation from the blissful influence of Divine love has reached its consummation.
• The reprobate must live in the midst of the damned; and their outbursts of hatred or of reproach as they gloat over his sufferings, and their hideous presence, are an ever fresh source of torment.
• The reunion of soul and body after the Resurrection will be a special punishment for the reprobate, although there will be no essential change in the pain of sense which they are already suffering.

(CE) Hontheim, J. (1910). Hell. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

You wrote “why would a loving God allow that to happen?” and that you would allow to substitute the word torment for torture.

Response: The definition of torment in Oxford Dictionary is:

torment, verb: cause to experience severe mental or physical suffering.

God is not the cause of it, but the person is. God gives each person sufficient grace so that there is only this result when freely chosen to reject that grace.

You wrote: “This, by definition, is an unjust punishment.”
Response: No, it is not by definition unjust punishment. Just is morally right and fair. Existing eternally without the Beatific Vision is neither unfair nor immoral.

 

[Average_Joe17]

My book also includes such variety of stories who came back from Hell and proved it to them, would you like some stories?