Looking for Support: The concept of Hell

[Vico]

Vico:

No, not if by spiritual location , materialism, emanationism, or pantheism is implied. As previously posted the word place has two different meanings. Now, you are proposing a spiritual location , and location has as a synonym situation:

So you do not subscribe to the traditional viewpoint of Hell?
That is what I am saying. Hell is not a place but separation from God.
There is no torture or suffering. An infinitely merciful God would not allow such a condition to exist.
Or are souls suffering in Hell?
If it is my choice to be in Hell - why should I fear it? If I do not want to be in Hell, I will not enter it.
Again, the viewpoint that Hell is a place of suffering is incompatible with Christian theology.
This is why I do not believe in the traditional concept of Hell.

There is both a state from the particular judgement at death, and a corporeal suffering from the general judgement with the resurrection.

Note what is stated in the Athanasian Creed, that the everlasting fire is from the General Judgment, when the resurrection of bodies occur:

For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Note also what is written in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, p. 481:

The fire of hell was conceived by individual Fathers such as Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa, and by later Theologians, like Ambrosius Catharinus, J. A. Mohler and H. Klee, in a metaphorical sense as a symbol for purely spiritual pains, especially for the torments of the gnawing of conscience. This opinion has not been formally condemned by the Church. The majority of the Fathers, the Schoolmen and the majority of modern theologians believe it to be a physical fire, but stress the difference between this fire and ordinary fire. St. Thomas, following the precedent of St. Augustine and St. Gregory the Great, explains the effect of physical fire on a purely spiritual essence as a binding of the spirits to material fire, which acts as an instrument of the Divine penal justice. Through it the spirits are made subject to matter and hindered in their free movement.

Q1 “If it is my choice to be in Hell - why should I fear it?”
A1 The choice is rather to be in heaven, to have the Beatific Vision, which requires confirmation in charity. Fear not being a partaker of the divine nature.

Q2 “If I do not want to be in Hell, I will not enter it.”
A2 Man does not have the ability to avoid hell except by willingly cooperating with the grace that God gives first.

 

[OneSheep]

If you are correct there is no Hell.

You are new on the CAF, so I would like to gently “get you into the groove” here. We are not to supposed to assume people’s positions, we are not to discuss other people’s opinions, i.e. I am not going to talk about another poster’s opinion in this post, but I may address yours. So stick with it, you are doing fine and you are very welcome here for sure, but take some time to read the rules if you haven’t. I didn’t say “there is no hell”, I have said that it would be wiser for the Church to openly accept a wide range of opinions about hell. The Church has plenty of room for a wide range of opinions. Following Jesus’ commandments and beatitudes is important, not heady stuff about hell.

Again, I was like you Jan1000 and Latin when I was younger.

I think you must be missing my messages, but an added note, not to be condescending, but you are young enough to be my son. So it does bring a bit of a smile on my face when you say “when I was younger”. I think it was St. Bede who said that he had experienced more spiritual growth after 80 than he had in his entire life.

 

[OneSheep]

So, we disagree on whether people change. I think people who are open to God can change and do change.

For me, though change is important, it isn’t about change. It is about understanding and forgiving people, seeing God in people here and now.

St. Augustine said, “It is through the Spirit that we see that whatsoever exists in any way is good”. We can “love the sinner” in very profound ways by acknowledging our own “posts” and seeing that we are all capable of very grave sin. And then, we can see what Jesus saw, “for they know not what they do”.

I want the best for all involved but if they have to go to Hell for grievous sin and grievous heart, I understand why.

“have to” sounds like “sent”. Do you mean “sent”? I thought you were in the “choice” camp?

With my current understanding of there being a Hell, I appreciate God, my family and Heaven even more.

I’m just finishing up Hans Urs Von Balthasar’s book Dare We Hope That all Men Be Saved?. I recommend it, even though parts are a little tough to understand. Many of the saints were so concerned for the plight of those going to hell that they prayed that God replace them with themselves. I think that it is pretty clear that heaven is not so heavenly if some of our loved ones have chosen hell. Indeed, if there is suffering in hell, with no possibility of leaving, then heaven itself will have an element of torment. Sure, one could postulate that God erases our minds of those who have chosen to be there, etc., etc., but then the problem is that then we have invented many means of intervention on the grieving when the grieving is unnecessary if hell was not an “eternal torment” as postulated.

If God loves and forgives unconditionally, as Jesus did from the cross, then no one is “sent” there. If people only choose hell in full awareness, they will not choose it. If a person actually chooses hell (“screaming and kicking” against God) and once he is there comes to awareness that he has chosen the wrong path, then a merciful God, even without hearing the prayers of everyone in heaven, will grant them leave of the suffering. Repentance comes with awareness.

Now I know of at least one famous saint that said that part of the joy in heaven is knowing that there are people in eternal hell who “deserve” to be there. That is not the voice of understanding and forgiveness, not the voice of forgiving those who we hold something against. God loves all; He takes no joy in people choosing hell. Punishment, according to the CCC, is to be medicinal; there is nothing medicinal about an eternal hell.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Many of the saints were so concerned for the plight of those going to hell that they prayed that God replace them with themselves. I think that it is pretty clear that heaven is not so heavenly if some of our loved ones have chosen hell. Indeed, if there is suffering in hell, with no possibility of leaving, then heaven itself will have an element of torment.

I don’t mean to upset you. So, I’ll just respond to this. That is part of the grieving process. Not to liken myself to a Saint, but with this new information you offered, doesn’t it provide more evidence that a lot of personal work is done in acknowledging a Hell that is ignored in not acknowledging it?

In the evenings as a I prayed in my grieving, I’m aware I too may lose family members. Prayer and contemplation to me is a form of conversation with God. So, in that prayer I build my relationship with God and through the Rosary the Divine Mother. If Saints have done this before, then I know I’m on the right track.

I will even add everyone is loved by someone, whether it be family, friends or relationships. A mother may lose a son. A father may lose a brother. But in that grieving process is a stronger relationship with God, where they are not lost for any little thing. Again, I’m not punitive nor do I ever condemn. But in asking forgiveness to God for being angry with him there is a Hell, I found I received a lot of love and comfort. Were I not ill I would take on the monastic life and join the Benedictine Monks. For now, I just pray for people that I meet. Being grateful to be in communion with the common man and woman.

Finally, I will mention the first mystery of Fatima. At the time people may have not found it monumental. The Children acknowledging there is a Hell followed by an insistence on prayer. Well, the Divine Mother in her wisdom was more than likely addressing future generations who would question such a concept. We are that generation that needs to know there is a Hell. We are the generation Fatima is addressing.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “That means you do not believe in the traditional view of Hell as a spiritual realm where souls go to suffer at the hands of demons and Satan. Correct me if I am wrong.” Re: material fire, which acts as an instrument of the Divine penal justice. You wrote: “You do not appear to subscribe to the above definition, even though you quote it.”
Response: I posted from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma showing the traditional understanding, which appears to be different that what you say is traditional. Do you agree? Note from that post that there are two traditional views “symbol for purely spiritual pains” and “physical fire, but stress the difference between this fire and ordinary fire”.

You wrote: “Your position seems to be that there is not Hell at present,”
Response: There is hell at present. Until the souls are reunited to the bodies there is no corporeal suffering in hell, since, per Catholic theology, the soul in immaterial.

You wrote: “But if it [hell] IS freely chosen, it clearly is not a punishment.”
Response: As to punishment, justice is a synonym of punishment. God is just, so having given His permissive free will, respects that final free will choice. Mercy and justice are not contradictory. Mercy is the ready willingness to help anyone in need, especially in need of pardon or reconciliation. The reprobate has chosen not to reconcile so does not accept the mercy of God.

You wrote: “The doctrine of Hell, no matter how one manipulates it theological, is incompatible with a loving and forgiving God.”
Response: Not so, for God cannot share the Beatific Vision (which is charity in essence) with one that does not persist in charity for that one does not want to see it. In order to share in the divine nature (love) a person must choose love.

I see that people have come up with the idea of multiple lives for a person because they do not believe that God would give only one life to choose. That ignores the providence and foreknowledge of God, assuming instead that a person would change their disposition if there was more than one lifetime.

 

[Vico]

…

As stated earlier, there is not merely one traditional view of Scriptural fire:

• metaphor for incorporeal fire: a “symbol for purely spiritual pains”
• similar to the pain of fire: “physical fire, but stress the difference between this fire and ordinary fire”

I posted that there is a hell now, so I do not know why you say “Then you disagree then with the ‘standard’ view of Hell as a place where souls are punished NOW”.

There are two periods after death, for the human reprobate: the first is after the particular judgement when the soul is without the body and the second is after the resurrection when the soul is united with the body. Since these are both hell, there is no conflict in both the state of suffering for the soul and later corporeal suffering added to it.

You asked “are you saying that Hell is nothing more than absence of sharing the Beatific Vision?” to which I say no. From the Catechism:

• 1028 “the Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision””
• 1035 “The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.”

Also there are other sufferings in hell that theologians discuss besides the two mentioned.

There is a foretaste of the Beatific Vision for the baptised (Catechism):

• 163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God “face to face”, “as he is”. …
• 1003 United with Christ by Baptism, believers already truly participate in the heavenly life of the risen Christ, but this life remains “hidden with Christ in God.” The Father has already “raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” Nourished with his body in the Eucharist, we already belong to the Body of Christ. When we rise on the last day we “also will appear with him in glory.”

And those that believe in and validly receive the Eucharist:

• 1000 … Yet our participation in the Eucharist already gives us a foretaste of Christ’s transfiguration of our bodies. …
• 391 Holy Communion augments our union with Christ . The principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist in Holy Communion is an intimate union with Christ Jesus. …

You wrote: “you are claiming Hell is a state and not a place.” and “Is there a specific spiritual location where demons exists, Satan reigns, and souls suffer physical/spiritual agony for eternity?”
Response: Same as earlier, place can mean:

• a particular position or point in space.
• a position in a sequence or series, typically one ordered on the basis of merit.

Demons (fallen angels) are pure spirits and have no bodies. Catechism 395 states that “Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus”.

There are angels in heaven who minister to human needs, and those in hell, the demons, attempting the destruction of humans.

 

[OneSheep]

In the evenings as a I prayed in my grieving, I’m aware I too may lose family members.

For you, being in heaven knowing a son or daughter of yours is suffering in torment is something you could grieve and overcome.

But in asking forgiveness to God for being angry with him there is a Hell, I found I received a lot of love and comfort.

I’m not sure what you mean. Could you clarify?

For now, I just pray for people that I meet. Being grateful to be in communion with the common man and woman.

Wonderful!

Finally, I will mention the first mystery of Fatima…

Well, you can mention it, but while we are to have respect for private revelations, of which Fatima is an example, Catholics are not obliged or even encouraged to believe any private revelations.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

I’m not sure what you mean. Could you clarify?

In prayer and contemplation, the feeling of reconciliation with the Lord. It’s a very intuitive feeling. The feeling of seeing passed the current veil of the secular world and growing deeper in capacity for accepting God. Feeling very good about the relationship.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

There are angels in heaven who minister to human needs, and those in hell, the demons, attempting the destruction of humans.

It is very hard to get you to answer a simple question. Again, is there a location where souls under grave mortal sin go and suffer pain for eternity - specifically tortured by demons? Yes or no?

In traditional Catholic teaching there are three and only three places your soul goes when you die.
Heaven, Hell, Purgatory.
If your souls goes to Hell, again - is there pain at the hands of demons? Yes or no?

Is there hell: yes (now without body, and later with body). Are the condemned angels and humans in hell now: yes. Are the demons corporeal: no. Are those in hell tormented? yes. Are those in hell tormented by the demons: yes.

The chief suffering is “eternal separation from God” and “the eternal fire.” (Catechism 1035). Satan “may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature”. (Catechism 395) The damned are together with the demons: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41)

2 Peter 2:4

4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [Gk: Tartarus] and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;

St. Faustina classed suffering in hell as seven-fold, (private revelation, of course):

• the loss of God
• remorse of conscience
• unchangeable outcome
• experiencing a purely spiritual fire
• seeing evil always (both darkness and unpleasantness)
• in the constant company of Satan
• having malice towards God.

 

[Vico]

…
But thank you for clarifying your position.

It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that I wrote, rather than a personal position, so that is why I provided the references. Also you will see in one of the posts that mercy is refused by the condemned. As the Catechism expresses it:

1033 … To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.

1864 “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

God cannot share the Beatific Vision (which is charity in essence) with one that does not persist in charity for that one does not want to see it. In order to share in the divine nature (love) a person must choose love.

Some think that God would give only one life to choose to love but that ignores the providence and foreknowledge of God, assuming instead that a person would change their disposition if there was more than one lifetime. See even in the Gospel of Luke 16:

27 He said, “Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.” 29 Abraham replied, “They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.” 30 He said, “No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.” 31 He said to him, “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”’

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “How can God be ‘infinitely’ merciful if he refuses to provide mercy once a soul is condemned?”
Response: This is the issue that I posted about before, so I posted:

Some think that God would give only one life to choose to love but that ignores the providence and foreknowledge of God, assuming instead that a person would change their disposition if there was more than one lifetime.

The phrase “mercy is refused by the condemned” is not an oxymoron because it is not a figure of speech. Those that are condemned have refused the mercy given to them which is the actual grace of conversion. It is a dogma that God desires the salvation of all.

You wrote: “This is why I subscribe to the viewpoint that “Hell” is absence of God, not eternal suffering in fire by demons.”
Response: It is not what you wrote. Catholic teaching is the chief suffering in hell is separation from God. There is also suffering as by fire which can mean either of the two traditional views of Scriptural fire I posted before:

• metaphor for incorporeal fire: a “symbol for purely spiritual pains”
• similar to the pain of fire: “physical fire, but stress the difference between this fire and ordinary fire”.

Once the body is resurrected the person exists again and so can experience not only pain in conscience but bodily pain also, and since the resurrected body does not die, this is eternal.

 

[oliver109]

Why does God not just let a sinner have an infinite number of lifetimes instead of separating the soul from their body and condemning them to Hell? I mean the sinner will at least be given the impression that they will always be able to repent even though God knows that they will never repent, the sinner will at least not have the gut awful feeling of eternal separation from God though obviously they will feel frustration of not living with God.

 

[oliver109]

Why should God keep giving them do overs? why not? he said forgive infinite times, it would surely feel better for the sinner to have that hope of salvation even if they never achieve it.

 

[oliver109]

I honestly do not know what they would care about, the situation is hypothetical but obviously their will has not yet been fixed on evil so they would probably still desire some form of salvation.

 

[oliver109]

How do you know they did not care about salvation? perhaps they went to confession sometimes, went to church, ended up sinning and died after sinning, they obviously cared enough to make a small effort to change their ways, the only problem was that they did not make enough of an effort to change their ways permanently and fell back into sin.

 

[oliver109]

Don’t you ever consider that some people care about salvation one year and do not the next and vice versa, I think in many cases life is not a process where one becomes holier and holier but rather a process where one lives in sin for a while, becomes holier, then goes back to living in sin and maybe then decides to become holier again, there are some people who delve deeper and deeper into sin and never repent but that is not the case with every sinner.

 

[oliver109]

The lukewarm are those who have no strong view about anything, what I am talking about are those who maybe feel strong about repenting, they repent but end up falling back into sin as they perhaps find living without sinning tiring and it is easier for them to sin. Why should they be given infinite chances to repent? because it beats being told the awful truth that your time of repentance is up and you will find no way out of Hell.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Well, Jan10000 you brought up a traditional view of Hell such as presented in Medieval Theology. And to clarify your position, it sounds like your reject that view in favor of eternal separation from God as Hell.

I personally don’t know what is involved in Hell and I never once mentioned any medieval tradition. I’ve come to believe there is a Satan or a Devil and there is a Hell. Along with this I hold the position that those sent there are in such a state of depravity, they too are evil. So, again, I have come to understand evil does exist.

I’m sorry if I disappoint other Catholics but I like to read about other view points. I’ve encountered books like Many Live Many Masters and Journey of Souls and I’ll while I’d love to believe in what they are writing, I hold onto my Catholic views because I’ve come to understand there is a lot at stake in life and this experience of ours should be treasured.

As for the internal conflict you hold of God’s infinite Mercy coinciding with a Hell. Again, upon contemplation and grieving I’ve questioned these things myself. But, again, the conclusion I drew is that while we are not equal to God we are our own sovereign Soul with free will. So, there are things God can’t do for us even if as I believe, he would want to. When a person reaches a state of moral depravity such that it is inherent in their Soul and behavior. What can God do? We are unique and special; it’s not as if God can recreate our soul.

But again, I’m not in favor of Medieval version of Hell. My view of Hell is separation from Heaven with the potential of renunciation of Eternal Life. The details of what Goes on in Hell, I don’t know.

 

[LovelyLadybug]

Only God knows who is going to hell and who isn’t. We don’t even know if really evil people (Hitler, Stalin, Martin Luther, Muhammad, etc…) are in hell. Only God knows what’s in people’s hearts. There are probably Catholics in hell and atheists in heaven. I hope this helps!!!

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

There are probably Catholics in hell and atheists in heaven

Not possible since all saints are part of the Church and none of the damned are since the Church is Christ’s body. There are no Catholics in hell or atheists in heaven. People who were baptized, confirmed and even had holy orders, yes. But in hell they are not part of His body. Any former atheist in Heaven converted before dying.